How will Sansa be found?

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

Hi, Selam!

I had a theory about how Arya would get back to Westeros. This topic is discussed from time to time. How will Arya return, where will she go...etc. Sansa is also talked about from time to time, but I don't remember reading a thread for it, maybe I missed it. I don't have a very detailed thread like Arya for this, but I wanted to share the idea that came to my mind.

There is a template in the books.

When you read Jaime Lannister's POV on the Riverlands, especially in book 4; There was an intense interaction with Brotherhood without banners. On the first povs with Brienne, he almost fell into their trap, but they did not swallow the bait and escaped. Later, we read that when Jaime returned to the Riverlands, he often spoke about Brotherhood without Banners and heard news from them. If I was not mistaken, he had assigned someone to hunt them.

There is a similar thing for Brienne, but there was not as much interaction as with Jaime, of course, his was more extreme, but there was for Brienne too. Of course, even they heard the name of Lady Stoneheart. As a result, both of them are now in the hands of the without Banners and Lady Stoneheart(at least we assume it). In a way, Martin "made a way" to the characters here ... For example, he said that he made the way for Tywin's death by using the "gold shitting" theme, as a sign.

So the references of the characters and of course (I think) their purpose are important in the story. Brienne must keep her vow to Cat and find Cat's daughters and bring them back to Cat in good health. Jaime took the same oath. Of course, a lot of problems arose; Arya is missing and now Sansa is missing too.

Jaime sent Brienne to find Sansa. The problem is Brienne doesn't know where Sansa is hiding, and she's very bad at guessing where she is. She doesn't think she'll be in Vale since her aunt is dead, but Sansa is there. I used to think that somehow Brienne and Jaime would somehow end up in Vale. Because Sansa is there and I was sure they would find her. Then I thought they were going to take Sansa north, because I thought by then Jon would be on the northern throne. And I assumed they could hear this.

Relatively recently, there has been a slight change in my mind, and something else came to my mind that seems more logical to me, where everything is sitting in my head.

Why might be not Vale?

If you've read my Riverlands in TWoW thread, you know that Jaime and Brienne will be very busy in the riverlands. At least that's what I'm guessing. These two also need to get rid of LSH somehow, because LSH will kill Jaime.

Finding Sansa and getting her safely back to her mother has become very important to Jaime's honor because you know he's starting a change now. Jaime wants to become the knight he dreamed of as a kid. For this reason, I think Jaime and Brienne will continue to search for Sansa together. The problem is i can't predict any arc for these two to go to Vale. I mean why/how they will go there, i cannot foresee. In the first place Brienne was sure she cannot be there. Why and how can change their mind; i could not find reasonable reasons. Also, no one will be happy to have Jaime in the Vale, and it's not easy for them to get into the castle grounds and find Sansa even if they're hiding. After all, Sansa does not take day trips to the bazaar, she is usually within the safe walls of the castle. Also, Jaime saw Sansa when she was a little girl, just like Arya, and he must have a red-haired girl in his mind. Sansa is currently dyeing her hair. Of course it's reasonable to expect them to somehow get to know Sansa, perhaps Sansa might prefer to reveal her identity to them if she somehow finds out about their purpose. Anyway, this part is not so important for now.

Of course, though, I would never remove out the possibility that they somehow will find Sansa in Vale, the possibility still exists.

Yet there is other possible possibilitie. Sansa can go to them. How?

Why might be Riverlands?

Quote

George says that Littlefinger is the Lord of the Riverlands but that he is going to run into trouble. I commented that Littlefinger is really powerful now that he has the Riverlands and supposed control of the Eyrie. GRRM laughed and said that I need to remember that for all his power Littlefinger has no army. (I thought that was interesting). GRRM also commented that (I forget which Frey, Emmon?) the Frey given Riverrun really wants to be Lord of the Riverlands and has dreams of having his father be his vassel. (I thought that was interesting also) - SSM, GRRM.

 

Being Lord of Harenhall and the Riverlands is a key touchstone the LF needs to gain political power in the aristocratic world. Yes, being rich is important, but money alone can only get you so far without a strong title. More is always needed for someone as ambitious as LF.

LF and the other lords are waiting for Robert to die because that boy is very unhealthy. However, LF's control of Vale also depends on Robert's survival and of course becoming Lord of the Riverlands. Otherwise he will lose his advantage and naturally other Vale lords will take action. LF would never want that to happen. So any potential problem in the Riverlands will be a major threat to the LF.

GRRM talks about LF will getting in trouble, of course what he's talking about here may be the Vale lords' attempt to take back Robert, but I think he's saying more than that. Because he easily overcame this venture we're talking about, I can't claim he got into a lot of trouble. Ever since I read this quote, I've interpreted LF to be in trouble at Riverlands in the future because, in context of the statement, Genna's husband has big dreams. The LF does not have an army to defend its title in the face of a possible rebellion, which GRRM drew attention to. We cannot think the crown would make a move against Genna Lannister to support the LF because the Lannisters are on the throne.

As a result, her husband, has Genna's power, is someone who has the potential to trouble LF in the Riverlands to get what he desires. In the face of this situation, we would expect the LF to have to go to the Riverlands to maintain its position. Maybe he might want to use the Vale army.

In my "What Will Happen in the Riverlands in TWoW " thread, I talked about events related to LSH's possible plans, but we can't imagine things will go smoothly for them. There will always be other unplanned variables/situations. Genna's husband and LF's arrival in these lands—possibly with the army—could be one of them.

I don't think LF would want to leave Sansa alone in the Vale if this were the case, as he is overly obsessed with her, he won't leave her behind and takes her with him.

That's when Jaime and Brienne don't have to go to the Vale, at least we don't have to make up stories to get them there, and everything will be easier for GRRM.

After that, Jaime and Brienne can somehow reunite with LF and Sansa, and they can learn Sansa's identity and take her from LF to her mother.

Yes, at first to me it seemed more likely that they would take him north, but on later thought, LSH is here, why would they take her daughter north while she's here? What happens in the north is not immediately heard in the riverlands, so one should expect a reasonable amount of time. During this time, we can't expect them to think about what to do with Sansa. It's clear what to do.

The oath given by both Jaime and Brienne; It was to bring Cat's daughters safely to their mother. This would have been the most logical/possible choice for Jaime and Brienne because of their obsession with honor. LSH was looking for Arya because she knew she was alive and wanderin in this land but Arya is in Braavos... but instead Sansa comes here and finds Sansa.

Later, when everything is over, they hear the news that the north has been liberated and that the Starks have returned to their home, and they go north together.

TLDR: According to GRRM's statement, the LF will (probably) get into trouble in the riverlands, so it's important for the LF to maintain its position in these lands, as he doesn't want to lose his power in the Vale. The reason for this problem may be that Genna's husband wants to be the lord of the riverlands, so he can act for it. So with LF coming to the riverlands and bringing Sansa with him, Jaime and Brienne can find the girl. LSH is on this land, and I expect these two to take Sansa back to her mother safely, as per the oath they made to Cat.

BONUS: After the show, there is some readers that thinks Sansa will go north with the Vale army in book 6. I can understand why some people think that the information in the show or even GoT games etc is canon for the books, but as GRRM said, only what is written in the books is canon(notablog 2012), and GRRM doesn't think that what happens on the show is a reference for what will happen in the books(ssm,2016). However, there is no way Vale can send an army north. They have no motivation for this, and no one would want to make an enemy of the crown for Sansa's beautiful face. Also, as in the ridiculous scene in the show, it's impossible for a southern army to cross Moat Cailin and the swamp. I don't think LF would approve of such a move to the north at this stage either. As a result, this recommendation taken as reference from the show is not possible for books.

Thank you for read.

 

[chrisdaw]

I don't think anyone will be purposely taking Arya or Sansa to see the skeletal black hooded spectre of death that was once their mother.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

I think Sansa will reveal herself once she married Harold. I think she’ll ultimately rule the Vale at the end of the books.

[Quoth the raven,]

Sansa will die in the Vale.  She is playing the game of thrones and Sweetrobin is the mark.  But what if the little boy figures this out and turns the tables on Sansa.  It just might happen.  Sansa looks guilty for the slaying of King Joffrey.  She was there when Littlefinger murdered Lysa.  It's simple enough to implicate her as an accomplice.  It looks bad for Sansa.  I know the Stark side will say she can out Littlefinger but he can say Sansa was part of the plot.  She kept her mouth shut about the murder of Lysa after all.  Sansa looks very guilty on all counts.  The burden of proof will be on her.  Sansa is wanted and not in a good way.  She is the poster criminal for Westeros Most Wanted with a very handsome bounty on her red head.  Sansa is not safe anywhere. 

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I don't think anyone will be purposely taking Arya or Sansa to see the skeletal black hooded spectre of death that was once their mother.

I doubt that the final version of the LSH matters. Jaime and Brienne made a vow and they are both striving to fulfill it. According to the template, they will succeed.

At first I thought they would take her to the north, but as I mentioned here, there is no good reason for that, they know the state of the north in its final form, not in its current form. But LSH is still here, albeit a wight, and she accuses them of breaking their oath. They will want to show that they didn't break their oaths, for Jaime it's a matter of honor now and moreover I think it's an important step for his change, at least his effort...

8 hours ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

I think Sansa will reveal herself once she married Harold. I think she’ll ultimately rule the Vale at the end of the books.

Could she be the Lady of the Vale at the end of the story? Maybe. But for now there's no chance of her marrying Harry because Sansa is married already. For the marriage to be annulled, she would have to reveal her identity, which means that everyone would know where Sansa is, and let's not forget that Sansa, like Tyrion, is accused of Joff's murder, and people are not entirely wrong. LF would not want that kind of problem.

6 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Sansa will die in the Vale.  She is playing the game of thrones and Sweetrobin is the mark.  But what if the little boy figures this out and turns the tables on Sansa.  It just might happen.  Sansa looks guilty for the slaying of King Joffrey.  She was there when Littlefinger murdered Lysa.  It's simple enough to implicate her as an accomplice.  It looks bad for Sansa.  I know the Stark side will say she can out Littlefinger but he can say Sansa was part of the plot.  She kept her mouth shut about the murder of Lysa after all.  Sansa looks very guilty on all counts.  The burden of proof will be on her.  Sansa is wanted and not in a good way.  She is the poster criminal for Westeros Most Wanted with a very handsome bounty on her red head.  Sansa is not safe anywhere. 

I don't think Sansa will die in the Vale, yes she might die at the end of the story but it won't happen in the Vale right now. I don't think Robin is capable of understanding what's going on, he's like a 5-6 year old kid. Sansa is poisoning him and he will probably die.

[Springwatch]

I agree LF and SH are going to meet up - they are unfinished business to each other. The Riverlands is the most likely place, but the Vale is possible, because SH is the person who'd have the least problem crossing the Mountains of the Moon - like Mel, the cold probably can't touch her, and the clansmen would be awed by her. Personally I don't think Sansa leaves the Vale, because my bet is that she gets iced and preserved by the predicted avalanche.

I've a hope LF and SH don't end up dead immediately, but shock each other into a better sanity. When they rediscover their human heart, they can get right back into being in conflict with it, which makes them a lot more interesting.

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I agree LF and SH are going to meet up - they are unfinished business to each other. The Riverlands is the most likely place, but the Vale is possible, because SH is the person who'd have the least problem crossing the Mountains of the Moon - like Mel, the cold probably can't touch her, and the clansmen would be awed by her. Personally I don't think Sansa leaves the Vale, because my bet is that she gets iced and preserved by the predicted avalanche.

I've a hope LF and SH don't end up dead immediately, but shock each other into a better sanity. When they rediscover their human heart, they can get right back into being in conflict with it, which makes them a lot more interesting.

I don't think they will meet in book 6, I think it is more likely that they will meet in book 7 (in the north), but of course I am not claiming that it will be like that for sure, as you said, they can meet in book 6, it is not impossible.

[csuszka1948]

Interesting. I previously thought that Sansa might be 'stolen' by Ser Shadrich and meet up with Aegon, but this makes more sense and is a direction I haven't considered yet. 

[Curled Finger]

People have been predicting Sansa would go north long before the story was told on television.  This is a natural progression for the character.  Sansa is interesting that way.  She fits in here and there.  When I first came to the forum it was widely assumed she would return to Kings Landing.  There are plenty of people who believe she will meet Aegon.   There are a lot of readers who like Sansa gathering up all this land (The Eyre, Harrenhal, Casterly Rock, Winterfell).  Somehow this makes her more powerful than anyone else.  Problem is, Littlefinger is not her father and cannot bequeath anything to Sansa Stark as inheritances go.  Yes, folks like to go on about her marriage entitling this and her lineage entitling that, but is that where her story is going?  

The truth is Sansa has nothing.  Her marriage to Tyrion has not been consummated and she cannot legally marry anyone else.  She has been disinherited at Winterfell, if Robb's will becomes known and honored.  Sweetrobin is Lord of the Vale.  His dying would only make Harry Lord of the Vale.  Sansa as Lady of the Vale means what if LF is still hanging around?  

What purpose would it serve to have Sansa meet up with Lady Stoneheart other than to fulfill a promise for Jamie and Brienne?  How does it serve Sansa?  Further traumatize her for life?  I guess it could serve to wake her to magic?   Then what?  Sansa has no real business in the Riverlands at all.  

The Mad Mouse is an interesting idea.  Should this little rat actually get away with her it could go a number of ways.  He already told Brienne there is a bounty on Sansa's head in Kings Landing.  Maybe he would head for payment, maybe he would take her elsewhere.  We simply don't know.  There are plenty of folks who believe Shadrach is someone else, but that tends to lead her back to Winterfell.   Certainly an abduction could be thwarted by just about anyone.  

Brienne seems singularly focused on finding Sansa, not Arya.  Martin hasn't done anything good for Brienne, ever.  I have a hard time believing he will allow Brienne and/or Jamie to actually find her.  But I can see him dropping Arya in their vicinity with her finding them, LSH and all.   I can at least see a reason for LSH to meet up with Arya and vice versa that isn't present for Sansa.  

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

snip

Thank you for read.

Most likely she will be found out by someone already in the Vale: either one of the Lords Declarant or Ser Shaddrich. Her cover story is already blown -- not just from her blunder with Randa Royce over Jon Snow but because she claims to be 14, which is all-but impossible given her backstory.

So my guess is that once her identity is revealed, someone (and my money is on Shaddrich) will try to bring her back to King's Landing, and she will most likely fall into the hands of the Burned Men or the Black Ears, whose leaders will recognize Sansa by sight and know her value. 

[Lady Ella]

I think Sansa will reveal herself in the Vale and get the support of the Vale lords in her own right. Sansa is a Stark, so she's the one with the real power here, not Petyr Baelish. The Starks spent the last few decades making friends in the Vale and half of them wanted to support Robb. They will feel guilty now about not helping him. Sansa, as a damsel in distress, will probably tip the scales in the Starks' favour. The Vale lords won't be able to resist her charm. LF's bribes will get him nowhere against the power of House Stark. And the Lannisters' regime is clearly crumbling.

So I could see the Vale lords going to the Riverlands (and then the North), but more likely for Sansa/House Stark, not LF. Why would they do anything for LF? What's he ever done for them? And the Starks have even more power in the Riverlands than they have in the Vale, especially if the BwB help to restore the Tullys. LF has zero power of his own in the Riverlands. He depends on the Lannisters for his power and they'll be busy fighting the Golden Company. Of course, LF may support Sansa. He might try to use her and be the power behind the throne. If so, he'll fail.

Sansa will also need to go to the Riverlands because, as princess and potential queen, it's her duty to feed the Riverlands, and the Vale happens to have a lot of food. Sansa will absolutely understand this obligation and will see the Riverlands as House Stark's responsibility. LF, as Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, would try selling food to his own people at inflated prices. Sansa will give it away for free, after first somehow persuading the Vale lords to hand it over. Maybe they'll crown her queen and so will have to do what she says? I'm not sure about the details.

So I could see Brienne and Jaime coming to Sansa in the Riverlands. Maybe they could be her Queensguard?

[Nevets]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Most likely she will be found out by someone already in the Vale: either one of the Lords Declarant or Ser Shaddrich. Her cover story is already blown -- not just from her blunder with Randa Royce over Jon Snow but because she claims to be 14, which is all-but impossible given her backstory.

So my guess is that once her identity is revealed, someone (and my money is on Shaddrich) will try to bring her back to King's Landing, and she will most likely fall into the hands of the Burned Men or the Black Ears, whose leaders will recognize Sansa by sight and know her value. 

Why would her being 14 be a problem.  That would make Littlefinger 18 when she was born, a logical age for him to leave her someplace.  His home territory, the Fingers, is remote so nobody is going to be keeping track.  He got his customs job a few years later.  Nobody asks too many questions about bastard children, although I will admit the disguise is a thin one.

Why would the leaders of the Burned Men or the Black Ears recognize her?  They never interacted, and the clansmen were long gone by the time she married Tyrion.  In any event, the passes are closed for winter, so any abductor would have to go by boat, not an easy task with an unwilling captive and a search going on.

[chrisdaw]

14 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

I doubt that the final version of the LSH matters. Jaime and Brienne made a vow and they are both striving to fulfill it. According to the template, they will succeed.

It matters, they're not crazy people, they'll attempt to fulfil the spirit of the vows in a true and logical manner, which will result in Jaime and Brienne playing ongoing defenders for the girls at various times.

[deja vu]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

...Why would the leaders of the Burned Men or the Black Ears recognize her?  They never interacted, and the clansmen were long gone by the time she married Tyrion.  In any event, the passes are closed for winter, so any abductor would have to go by boat, not an easy task with an unwilling captive and a search going on.

GRRM made sure that the Burned Men and Black Ears are able to recognize Sansa, as detailed in this post: Sansa, the Mountain Clans, the “Ivy Special Ops Team,” and an Avalanche. I've always liked the avalanche theory as a way to reintroduce the clans and to subject Sansa to sensory deprivation, which seems to have been a factor in developing the Warg sense of her siblings. In response to my post, others rightly pointed out that the Clans would not have much interest in rescuing people buried by the avalanche. I've come to question whether there would be time in TWoW for the avalanche and its aftermath to play out, and, if the Vale story has any purpose, Sansa and Littlefinger would have to survive. I continue to think it makes sense for the Clans and Sansa to be brought together to help her claim Casterly Rock in Tyrion's name.

[deja vu]

GRRM has set Littlefinger up to travel to the Riverlands. Daven Lannister is betrothed to a Frey. The wedding seems likely to happen soon, probably at Riverrun. As Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, liege lord of House Frey, who is believed to be a Lannister ally, it would raise eyebrows if LF didn't attend the wedding. Allayne/Sansa could travel as far as Harrenhall or attend the wedding as a "below the salt" guest, much as Jon Snow attended the feast for Robert Baratheon at Winterfell. 

The Red Wedding 2.0 theory has Jamie (and maybe Brienne) attending the wedding escorting the Brotherhood without Banners into Riverrun (or whereever the wedding is held). Lady Stoneheart won't be too far away. Maybe Arya could make her way there too. 

The wedding seems like a great fulcrum for bringing several storylines back together. And maybe, just maybe, Jamie would support Tyrion's claim to Casterly Rock by backing Sansa. 

Tinfoil?

Edited May 19, 2023 by deja vu
Finish writing the post

[John Suburbs]

16 hours ago, Nevets said:

Why would her being 14 be a problem.  That would make Littlefinger 18 when she was born, a logical age for him to leave her someplace.  His home territory, the Fingers, is remote so nobody is going to be keeping track.  He got his customs job a few years later.  Nobody asks too many questions about bastard children, although I will admit the disguise is a thin one.

Why would the leaders of the Burned Men or the Black Ears recognize her?  They never interacted, and the clansmen were long gone by the time she married Tyrion.  In any event, the passes are closed for winter, so any abductor would have to go by boat, not an easy task with an unwilling captive and a search going on.

Because her backstory is that he fathered her when he was chief of the port in Gulltown. So first, how likely is it that they would appoint an 18-yo nobody with no experience running anything as chief of the port -- and in fact he would have to be a young 18 or more likely 17 when he met Alayne's mother. Second, he only got his "minor sinecure" in King's Landing 10 years ago. If he was chief at Gulltown for any reasonable time, and had already displayed this financial prowess, he would have started at a higher level --- and that would have taken at least a year. So at best, Alayne should be no older than 12 -- just turning 13 tops.

Both Chella and Timmet have seen Sansa before. Timmet was there when Sansa was beaten in the lower baily. And Chella was guarding Sansa's room that night and they exchanged words:

Quote

It was dark when she rose again . . .

. . . Outside stood a hard-faced woman with leathery brown skin, three necklaces looped about her scrawny neck. One was gold and one was silver and one was made of human ears. "Where does she think she's going?" the woman asked, leaning on a tall spear.

"The godswood." She had to find Ser Dontos, beg him to take her home now before it was too late.

"The halfman said you're not to leave," the woman said. "Pray here, the gods will hear."

Yes, the High Road is closed, so no one else will be on it. And they'll probably have to leave the road to get past, or get stuck. A foolhardy plan by a man with dreams of gold . . .

[Angel Eyes]

She's not going to be found. Didn't GRRM say that in another interview?

Quote

Sansa may be dead as well. There's only Alayne Stone.

 

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

She's not going to be found. Didn't GRRM say that in another interview?

 

I never saw it, don't know that. U sure?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Shadrich may recognise Sansa and try to take her and fail, though Sansa might outsmart him or convince him to join her service instead, and spoil Littlefinger's plans by revealing her identity early to the Vale. 

This may force Littlefinger to speed up his plans for the Riverlands and the North, and to declare war on the Iron Throne and try to use Sansa to gain control over these regions earlier than anticipated. 

Of course other things will arrive to make things don't go his way further, with Aegon and Jon Connington's arrival and defeat of the Lannister regime, the defeat of the Boltons and the reveal that Sansa isn't the only Stark left, while Sansa may discreetly weave her own web in the meantime. 

[Springwatch]

On 5/19/2023 at 4:43 PM, John Suburbs said:

Because her backstory is that he fathered her when he was chief of the port in Gulltown. So first, how likely is it that they would appoint an 18-yo nobody with no experience running anything as chief of the port

If Jon Snow can be Lord Commander of the Wall, anything is possible. At least LF doesn't have to be elected, and has the benefit of patronage.