NBA Playoffs - Joker's Wild

[briantw]

8 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

i have no idea how someone that big can move like that.  

That's how I feel watching Myles Garrett on the Browns.  

[BigFatCoward]

Concerns of the celtics lacking depth were put to bed last night. Top 5 scorers 100 pts, rest combined for 8. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

On 10/28/2023 at 1:15 AM, BigFatCoward said:

Concerns of the celtics lacking depth were put to bed last night. Top 5 scorers 100 pts, rest combined for 8. 

As of now they've scored 108 points in three quarters and only have eight bench points. They're also up by 33. Team glass cannon go! 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[BigFatCoward]

Clippers are all in. Wonder how long Harden will last before he flounces off somewhere else. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Nothing is finalized, but it's a weird trade for both teams. Idk how much better the Clippers are and the Sixers didn't get much back. The article I read says they're going to try and make a quick move for an All-Star level player, but Idk who they could target or if they have the assets to do so. 

I don't gamble, but if I was able to place a bet on Embiid not being on the team next year I'd put a little money on that. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Maithanet]

It's a good deal for Philly because Harden is poison and you cannot win with him.  The Sixers core of Embiid-Maxey-Harden couldn't get out of the second round the past two years, and that isn't gonna change as Harden gets older and slower.  It's addition by subtraction shipping Harden out and they got tangible assets in return.  That 2028 Clippers pick will probably be in the top 8.  

The Clippers...ugh.  Harden certainly doesn't solve the health problem, if either George or Leonard are hurt in the playoffs they're going nowhere.  Did LAC need more talent to win the West if they were both healthy?  Maybe.  Is Harden that talent?  Probably not.  I personally don't think Harden is worth his contract, so I wouldn't be trading anything for him.  But LAC sees their championship window closing, and they want to make a move, and Harden is basically the only guy available.  They should have just traded for Beal instead.  Washington got about what LAC just traded for Harden, and Beal isn't going to piss everybody off.

[Proudfeet]

I think this is a consequence of being in win now mode and neglecting to develop players. You keep trading for veterans and don't develop young players and your assets dwindle as your draft picks are either traded away or stuck at the end of the bench and your veterans start to slow down.

They only have Mann and Zubac. They did get Hyland from the Nuggets, but he didn't manage to break into the rotation last season. Not sure if they're playing the rest of their roster any meaningful minutes.

As far as adding Harden goes, even assuming he plays well, I'm not sure what the fit is between the four stars and who gets the ball. Are we just going to watch Harden bounce the ball while Kawhi and George chill on the sides? I think if you trade for Kawhi and George, you should all in on the both of them instead of constantly trying to find the magic point guard to make them work. If Tatum and Brown can work in Boston with whatever point guards they had, maybe they should try changing the coach instead.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

27 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

It's a good deal for Philly because Harden is poison and you cannot win with him.  The Sixers core of Embiid-Maxey-Harden couldn't get out of the second round the past two years, and that isn't gonna change as Harden gets older and slower.  It's addition by subtraction shipping Harden out and they got tangible assets in return.  That 2028 Clippers pick will probably be in the top 8.  

Future picks that far out are pretty useless when you have a top five player who will likely not be in his prime by then. I agree the combo of those three players has hit its ceiling, but if they don't turn what they have into adding something like a top 25ish player they will lose Embiid, and even if they can get someone like that they may end up being a second round exit again. I understand removing a headache, but they're not a better team at this moment. 

[Maithanet]

Harden wasn't playing or practicing with the Sixers, so it's hard to argue they are worse off with him gone.  Basically the only team in the league that wanted Harden was the Clippers, so the chance of trading him in exchange for an another star was basically nil.

If Philly wants to compete, they need to bring in more talent, but an unprotected 2028 pick from the Clippers is a valuable trade chip. Who knows if they be able to get another top 25 guy. Winning a championship isn't easy, and Philly has made a whole bunch of bad moves in the past 5 years.  This trade is a step in the right direction, which is all you can ask.  They needed to get rid of Harden and this was the most they could reasonably expect to get in return. 

[Wilbur]

Have you ever thought, "Harden is a bit of a weirdo"?

Read this summary of his career.  His career is a serious outlier for an MVP contender.

[Maithanet]

It is fair to say that Harden has had a very unusual career.  In some ways he was the epitome of moneyball basketball.  His style fits extremely well with a layups/3s/free throws strategy.  But he has always been garbage without the ball, and his defense is never as good as you would expect someone with his physical gifts. 

Bad teammate + bad defense + diminishing offensive skills and health = a player that is going to be out of the league soon.  I'm frankly surprised that the Sixers could get as much as they did from LAC. 

It is kind of funny that Harden and Westbrook are together again on the Clippers.  Those guys have fallen a long way.  Crazy to think back to the 2012 Finals when Lebron was nearing his peak and the OKC trio were the young challengers.  11 years later Lebron is obviously showing his age, but is nonetheless still a force, where Westbrook/Harden are largely afterthoughts in the league.  I have a lot of sympathy for Westbrook (who has largely been a professional his whole career), not so much for Harden. 

[Rhom]

2 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

It is fair to say that Harden has had a very unusual career.  In some ways he was the epitome of moneyball basketball.  His style fits extremely well with a layups/3s/free throws strategy.  But he has always been garbage without the ball, and his defense is never as good as you would expect someone with his physical gifts. 

Bad teammate + bad defense + diminishing offensive skills and health = a player that is going to be out of the league soon.  I'm frankly surprised that the Sixers could get as much as they did from LAC. 

It is kind of funny that Harden and Westbrook are together again on the Clippers.  Those guys have fallen a long way.  Crazy to think back to the 2012 Finals when Lebron was nearing his peak and the OKC trio were the young challengers.  11 years later Lebron is obviously showing his age, but is nonetheless still a force, where Westbrook/Harden are largely afterthoughts in the league.  I have a lot of sympathy for Westbrook (who has largely been a professional his whole career), not so much for Harden. 

If only they could swing Paul George for Kevin Durant.  They'd be able to run back the OKC core!

[Proudfeet]

I wonder if Luka is going to end up the same way as Harden.

Think they are really similar in their deficiencies, maybe outside of the rumoured partying which somehow didn't stop Harden from dominating the regular season with the more demanding schedule.

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

If only they could swing Paul George for Kevin Durant.  They'd be able to run back the OKC core!

Can start with Ibaka. Think he is a free agent now if he hasn't retired. 

[Maithanet]

3 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

I wonder if Luka is going to end up the same way as Harden.

Think they are really similar in their deficiencies, maybe outside of the rumoured partying which somehow didn't stop Harden from dominating the regular season with the more demanding schedule.

I haven't followed his career closely, but I've never heard anyone say Luka is a bad locker room guy.  In addition, Luka isn't great without the ball, but he's willing to at least try and play decoy, which I can't say the same about Harden.  Those seem like pretty crucial differences. 

Or to put another way, if the Mavs had gone temporarily insane and traded Luka for Harden straight up, is there any reason to think Luka and Embiid couldn't get along and be effective?  I think they'd do just fine.  I would also think that team might be talented enough to win a championship.  That would be the best Top Two in the country, and Maxey is a capable third banana. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Luka is liked by his European teammates, but my understanding NBA players don't like him. Anyways, Luka at his best is already better than Harden when he was at his best and a Luka/Embiid combo would be incredible. Luka isn't so heliocentric when he plays for Slovenia so he can adapt his game in the NBA. I just think that speaks to what a dumpster fire the Mavs have been.  

[Rhom]

This list isn't exhaustive but it's also something that gets lost. A lot of people champion players forcing their way out because it's painted as player vs. corporate overlords (despite most of the players involved making more than coaches/GMs/executives). I typically don't mind players securing the bag or doing what they think is best but the league has incentivized a scenario where players are encouraged to secure the bag and then hold a franchise and multiple players hostage to accomodate their wishes.

 

[Proudfeet]

6 hours ago, Maithanet said:

I haven't followed his career closely, but I've never heard anyone say Luka is a bad locker room guy.  In addition, Luka isn't great without the ball, but he's willing to at least try and play decoy, which I can't say the same about Harden.  Those seem like pretty crucial differences. 

Or to put another way, if the Mavs had gone temporarily insane and traded Luka for Harden straight up, is there any reason to think Luka and Embiid couldn't get along and be effective?  I think they'd do just fine.  I would also think that team might be talented enough to win a championship.  That would be the best Top Two in the country, and Maxey is a capable third banana. 

I don't know, Luka seems to sulk a lot. That and him being extremely ball dominant doesn't seem particularly likeable. I haven't seen Luka with Kyrie, but I don't have that impression of him willing to play off the ball with Brunson.

Well, if the Sixers had 2018 Harden, they'd probably do just fine too. That's not what I meant. I was trying to ask if you guys think Luka would be in the same situation, having had a similar career maybe 10 years later. Its not like Harden had a bad career too, thought he was pretty close that year against the Warriors superteam when Chris Paul injured his hamstring. Has an MVP, maybe could have had two.

[Teng Ai Hui]

Crazy finish there in Phoenix

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Teng Ai Hui said:

Crazy finish there in Phoenix

Holy shit, they lost? I turned the game off a little after halftime. Felt like they were going to win by at least 30. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Maithanet]

12 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

I don't know, Luka seems to sulk a lot. That and him being extremely ball dominant doesn't seem particularly likeable. I haven't seen Luka with Kyrie, but I don't have that impression of him willing to play off the ball with Brunson.

Well, if the Sixers had 2018 Harden, they'd probably do just fine too. That's not what I meant. I was trying to ask if you guys think Luka would be in the same situation, having had a similar career maybe 10 years later. Its not like Harden had a bad career too, thought he was pretty close that year against the Warriors superteam when Chris Paul injured his hamstring. Has an MVP, maybe could have had two.

I think that it is extremely unlikely that Luka will be bouncing around teams to the extent that Harden is, as that is extremely unusual.  Is it possible that Luka will have a similar career with one MVP and no rings, although it's really too early to say.  I don't think Luka will stay in Dallas too much longer, they have made some big swings and mostly wiffed on them.  Where Luka goes after that will play a huge role in how successful his career is.