NBA Playoffs - Joker's Wild

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

It's not like Messi skipping the world cup because the FIFA world cup is the most watched and played sport in the world by far with prize money to match.  FIBA is not at that point yet because to most of the world basketball was dogshit until 1992.

EDIT:  Also... suck it America! No bronze for you

It kind of is though because across the board a lot of the top 25 players didn't bother to show up. That makes it a shitty event and it's on FIBA to find a way to entice them.

Also, looking at the box score, it's amazing how poorly Kerr managed players' minutes. Like I said before I think he's a good coach for his team, but not this team, and this poor performance makes you wonder about the 73 win team considering Walton actually had the better record that year. 

[Slurktan]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

It kind of is though because across the board a lot of the top 25 players didn't bother to show up. That makes it a shitty event and it's on FIBA to find a way to entice them.

Also, looking at the box score, it's amazing how poorly Kerr managed players' minutes. Like I said before I think he's a good coach for his team, but not this team, and this poor performance makes you wonder about the 73 win team considering Walton actually had the better record that year. 

It isn't though and just makes you look like an idiot for thinking it so. Are you an idiot?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

It isn't though and just makes you look like an idiot for thinking it so. Are you an idiot?

What's idiotic about pointing out that if a tournament is missing a lot of the best players in the world because they don't care about it makes it meaningless? Serbia just lost the Final. Would have helped to have Joker there.

[Relic]

On 9/9/2023 at 7:07 AM, BigFatCoward said:

This right here is why the world hates America. And you are one of the alright ones. You are one 25th of the world's population, wind your neck in. 

What are you even saying? The best basketball league in the world is in the USA. And while the NBA has a lot more great foreign players than it used to, most of the league is American. Why is it silly to expect the USA to medal in the world cup, given all of the above? 

[Relic]

Kerrs coaching was atrocious. He needs to step down and let Spo take over. One thing that rally stood out today was the disparity in defense between the bronze and the gold games. Both Germany and Serbia played waaaaay better D than the USA. Weirdly enough, they got gold and silver for their efforts. USA needs to get Bamba and Mobley on the roster for the Olympics. 

[Relic]

19 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

It isn't though and just makes you look like an idiot for thinking it so. Are you an idiot?

Uncalled for. 

[David Selig]

In basketball, unlike in soccer, the World Cup is not the biggest international tournament. It just doesn't have the prestige of the Olympics for historical reasons. FIFA restrict the participation of players over 23 in the Olympics soccer tournament but I don't see FIBA doing this any time soon, it would massively hurt the prestige of the international game.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Yep, same with hockey.

Although in HOckey you at least need a World Championship win to unlock a career achievement (Tripple Gold Club: Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold Medal, and World Championship Gold).

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, David Selig said:

In basketball, unlike in soccer, the World Cup is not the biggest international tournament. It just doesn't have the prestige of the Olympics for historical reasons. FIFA restrict the participation of players over 23 in the Olympics soccer tournament but I don't see FIBA doing this any time soon, it would massively hurt the prestige of the international game.

It would be the dumbest thing they could do (and I think FIFA should chill on the age rule as well). FIBA's primary goal needs to be to grow the game and specifically their TV revenue. That's why it's important they get more of the top players to participate. 

In a better world the NBA season would be shorter and start later and that would make it easier to have a much better FIBA tournament that starts a little later, but still leaves plenty of time for training camps. 

[BigFatCoward]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

It would be the dumbest thing they could do (and I think FIFA should chill on the age rule as well). FIBA's primary goal needs to be to grow the game and specifically their TV revenue. That's why it's important they get more of the top players to participate. 

In a better world the NBA season would be shorter and start later and that would make it easier to have a much better FIBA tournament that starts a little later, but still leaves plenty of time for training camps. 

If you think that the US walking it every time is better for basketball than the schadenfreude the rest if the world gets when your arrogant arses get handed to you? I don't know what to tell you. 

[BigFatCoward]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

What are you even saying? The best basketball league in the world is in the USA. And while the NBA has a lot more great foreign players than it used to, most of the league is American. Why is it silly to expect the USA to medal in the world cup, given all of the above? 

I responding to him saying it should be NBA, rather than FIBA rules. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

If you think that the US walking it every time is better for basketball than the schadenfreude the rest if the world gets when your arrogant arses get handed to you? I don't know what to tell you. 

I don't expect the US to enjoy the same dominance as we once did. There are a number of national teams that have vastly improved over the last two decades and they get the additional benefit of playing together more frequently. plus as we've discussed arguably the four best NBA players are foreign born. We'll always be the best when our A team shows up, but the gap has closed significantly and simply having the most talent isn't enough in a single game elimination tournament.  

[DireWolfSpirit]

So we finish the 2023 Basketball World Cup with:

Germany- Gold

Serbia- Silver

Canada- Bronze

Next month NBA Pre-season starts, im so ready!

[baxus]

 

On 9/8/2023 at 5:18 PM, Tywin et al. said:

Actually they were projected to be the best team. 

Serbia was projected as 8th or 9th favourite to win it. Projections mean nothing.

On 9/8/2023 at 5:18 PM, Tywin et al. said:

Which is dumb. Play like the top league. 99.9% of basketball players around the world want to make it to the NBA. Playing by a different set of rules is silly.

No, don't play like the top league when the top league forces the superstar system, where superstars are allowed to take 40 shots per game on 30% FGs and are applauded for it. I mean, Iverson was one of the biggest stars of his era, a PG with top season average for assists around 7 and FG pct not topping 45%? I much prefer focusing on the team, where different player can step up in each game and not everything goes through one player.

On 9/8/2023 at 5:18 PM, Tywin et al. said:

And this makes things better? Most NBA refs suck. So we're using a lot of refs that probably might not be D2 refs here. Awesome, that's how you crown a world champion... in 2026 I hope high school refs are assigned to the World Cup. 

Refs issue is well known and everyone is complaining about it and it needs to be addressed. It's not just USA who get shafted by incompetent refs.

On 9/8/2023 at 5:18 PM, Tywin et al. said:

Lol, you sound like the guy that says the college game is better when it's clearly an inferior product. And no, it's not about not having the ability to adapt due to a lack of intelligence.

It's what you prefer. If you prefer everyone shooting 3s all the time and throwing in a slam dunk, as spectacular as it may be, every once in a while and 80-90% of the regular season being meaningless, calling it "product" and not a competition, then NBA is the way to go.

If you'd prefer team play, star players not shooting 30 or 40 times per night and every single match being important, then you need to watch Euroleague or another similar competition.

And I did say that it's either lack of intelligence or lack of motivation. Pick whichever you want, I don't care. All I know is that the moment this USA team couldn't physically steamroll the opposition and ran into team cancelling out their advantages and playing smart, they were in trouble. We'll see what the response from USA basketball will be. My money is on sending a team that could steamroll harder and that would most likely be enough for gold in the Olympics.

On 9/8/2023 at 5:18 PM, Tywin et al. said:

Our team is just a random group of players thrown together and most of the top players give zero fucks about FIBA so they skip it. Ant is the teams best player and he's probably not one of the 10 best US players right now. Bobby Portis got serious minutes for the team and he's not even a top 100 American player in the NBA. The tournament is just not viewed as a serious thing, hence why your best player sat it out, as did pretty much all of ours. 

You think other national teams have this unlimited time to create a team and train them and sync them and all that? Boy, are you in for a surprise!

Are you familiar with the qualifying system in Europe for this World Cup? Do you know about FIBA and Euroleague dispute which resulted in Euroleague players not being able to play in qualifying matches. Are you aware that only a handful of players who represented European countries in qualifiers saw game time in the World Cup?

And not just Jokic skipped this tournament for Serbia. We've had 7 or 8 players who played more or less regularly for the national team in previous years withdraw from the team, either in order to rest or prepare for the upcoming season and some were injured. Sure, USA had more than 7 or 8 top players out of this tournament, but USA has a 300+M population, while Serbia has 6,5M so we can compare.

On 9/8/2023 at 5:34 PM, Proudfeet said:

Are there any significant rule differences? The obvious one is the three point line, but what other rules do players have to adapt to?

Most of it has already been covered, but I think 5 instead of 6 personal fouls was missed.

On 9/9/2023 at 7:22 AM, Tywin et al. said:

This is basically like arguing that the PL should play by different rules China and India agreed on because their populations are larger. Play like how the top players do in the by far and away best league. Maybe it will get people to care about the tournament. The elite players sure as shit don't. Jokic wears the crown right now and didn't bother to show up. That's like Messi skipping the WC. At that point you have a fundamental problem with your event. 

World Cup is nowhere near as prestigious as the Olympics are in basketball. That's a fact. USA hasn't sent their best team to the World Cup even once since I've been watching it (the first one I remember was in '98). That's also a fact. That's also USA problem. Send an inferior team and risk not winning a medal. If that's ok with you (players, coaches, USA basketball, the nation, whoever), then keep doing it. When motivation improves, you'll get results.

16 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

What's idiotic about pointing out that if a tournament is missing a lot of the best players in the world because they don't care about it makes it meaningless? Serbia just lost the Final. Would have helped to have Joker there.

We had Joker last year in the European Cup, got knocked out in quarterfinals.

A certain number of best players don't make the best team. It's a complex system, you need to find the right pieces and fit them together properly.

16 hours ago, Relic said:

What are you even saying? The best basketball league in the world is in the USA. And while the NBA has a lot more great foreign players than it used to, most of the league is American. Why is it silly to expect the USA to medal in the world cup, given all of the above? 

USA should medal in the basketball World Cup. It's weird they didn't in the last 2. They even medaled in '98 when NBA players didn't play due to the lockout and college players were sent instead.

15 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Yep, same with hockey.

Although in HOckey you at least need a World Championship win to unlock a career achievement (Tripple Gold Club: Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold Medal, and World Championship Gold).

The difference being that World Championship in ice hockey takes place at the same time as Stanley Cup playoffs so many of the best players in the world can't play.

[DireWolfSpirit]

On 9/11/2023 at 4:41 AM, baxus said:

Its what you prefer. If you prefer everyone shooting 3s all the time and throwing in a slam dunk, as spectacular as it may be, every once in a while and 80-90% of the regular season being meaningless, calling it "product" and not a competition, then NBA is the way to go.

If you'd prefer team play, star players not shooting 30 or 40 times per night and every single match being important, then you need to watch Euroleague or another similar competition.

Interesting points. I personally would like to see the 3 point play made more rare, something wildly more difficult to the point where its not the overwhelming singular strategy of every team.

I'd like a league where a Kareem or Dr J still have value, in todays game theyd both be marginalized and their minutes diced out to 40% 3 pt shooters regardless of any other attributes.

Todays NBA would be funner if we could get back to balance of inside, perimeter and transition ball. I would more enjoy a game that cuts down on FT's and perimeter bombing by about a third, a game where theres still a value for 7 footers.

Thats just me though, other people seem to eat up the trash Kerr shoves down thier throats, which to me looks like  glorified H-O-R-S-E contests at times.

Edited September 12, 2023 by DireWolfSpirit

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, baxus said:

The difference being that World Championship in ice hockey takes place at the same time as Stanley Cup playoffs so many of the best players in the world can't play.

Yeah, but even among those that did not make the play offs, there's always a number of a-listers who prefer their break and off season.Or the clubs say, nope, we are not giving you permission to play World Championships.

I mean Penguins didn't make the play-offs this year Crosby still didn't play the World Championships this year. He already has the tripple gold club achievement unlocked anyway.

Anyway priority for those guys are similar to the NBA players

Stanley Cup/NBA title, Olympics... World Championship.

Well difference is, that the NHL players actually do enjoy and want to play the Olympics. With the NBA players it's more like a chore (at least for the Americans). Yeah, Olympics been there done that, let somebody else have a go at gold.

[baxus]

I'm not following ice hockey as much as I'd like to, but I don't remember clubs ever telling players they can't play for their national teams except in the last Olympics when no NHL players were allowed to compete due to lack of an agreement between IOC/IIHF and NHL.

[Proudfeet]

2 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Todays NBA would be funner if we could get back to balance of inside, perimeter and transirion ball. I would more enjoy a game that cuts down on FT's and perimeter bombing by about a third, a game where theres still a value for 7 footers.

Thats just me though, other people seem to eat up the trash Kerr shoves down thier throats, which to me looks like  glorified H-O-R-S-E contests at times.

I don't know about Team USA, but the Warriors are pretty good to watch. Its not like they are the Mitchell led Jazz where its cross court pass after cross court pass until someone is open or they pass it to Mitchell to force something. Or the Zion and four statues Pelicans.

Also, when the top MVP candidates are Jokic/Embiid/Giannis, and the top pick is Wembanyama, maybe its too late to say that there is no value for 7 footers? Plus, offense aside, they also have value for their defense and rebounding, as evidenced over the last page or so with the loss of teams USA and Canada blamed on size.

Think its not so much that there is no value in post skills but rather players aren't proficient enough after they shifted emphasis to the three. Not sure what Gobert's excuse is though.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

7 hours ago, baxus said:

I'm not following ice hockey as much as I'd like to, but I don't remember clubs ever telling players they can't play for their national teams except in the last Olympics when no NHL players were allowed to compete due to lack of an agreement between IOC/IIHF and NHL.

Stützle was told by his club not to play this year. I wasn't aware of clubs btelling players not to play before that either. Can't really blame the Sens tho. Can't really blame the Sens, after he piced up an injury last year.

[Wilbur]

16 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Interesting points. I personally would like to see the 3 point play made more rare, something wildly more difficult to the point where its not the overwhelming singular strategy of every team.

I'd like a league where a Kareem or Dr J still have value, in todays game theyd both be marginalized and their minutes diced out to 40% 3 pt shooters regardless of any other attributes.

Todays NBA would be funner if we could get back to balance of inside, perimeter and transirion ball. I would more enjoy a game that cuts down on FT's and perimeter bombing by about a third, a game where theres still a value for 7 footers.

Thats just me though, other people seem to eat up the trash Kerr shoves down thier throats, which to me looks like  glorified H-O-R-S-E contests at times.

I agree with all of these sentiments that you expressed except for the final one regarding Kerr.

One of the issues in the NBA is the long season (82 games) and long (48 minute) games.  Not very many players in the NBA are going to play lock-down defense on the perimeter every minutes on the court all season long, so the open trey is going to be an ongoing opportunity until the sense of urgency is sufficient to generate a suitable defensive response that is sustainable across all those minutes and all those games.

If the NBA played two half-seasons of 30 games, with a Thanksgiving-to-Christmas single-elimination tourney in between, the players might have the energy to put in that kind of defensive effort.  But the 82-game season wears out the athletes even in the absence of that defensive intensity, so there must be some other solution.

Another possibility is to allocate more minutes to the bench, with a corresponding coaching and incentive change to focus on defense.  We are no longer in the 1990s, when the league talent was powerfully diluted with the arrival of the expansion teams that spread the existing talent so thinly - the international scene has provided and can provide more excellent technical players.

As to Kerr, I disagree that his teams play trash ball.  I think that he has used the talent available to him very effectively - so much so that the Warriors have changed the style of NBA play drastically, both on offense AND defense.

With a generational talent like Curry, and an All-Star sidekick in Klay Thompson, he has fully exploited the mathematical value of the trey.  But it isn't just jacking up threes at every opportunity, although the many OTHER players from the NBA down to elementary kids seem to think that is what they do.  Kerr has taken several different iterations of the Warriors, season after season, and usually got everyone on the team to buy into the hard work and effort to move the ball and move off the ball to create attractive, high-speed, sophisticated offenses.  And in the process, he has used his players to their strengths - look at the lovely mid-range game from Shaun Livingston, Harrison Barnes, Kevin Durant and Andrew Wiggins that arose organically from the Warrior's offense, and in many cases makes the trey work for them.  Or look at the excellent usage and team success he derived from relatively limited players like JaVale McGee, Marreese Speights, Zaza Pachulia and Festus Ezeli, outcomes that prior and subsequent coaches never produced with them in the pivot.

And on the defensive end, the ground-breaking pre-switching and world-class on-the-court communication that the Warriors demonstrate year after year make them an above-average defensive team, even when they play small lineups.  You can see how the Nuggets have adopted this defensive work ethic and tactics, and perhaps this smarter NBA defensive style will eventually provide the league-wide answers to the question I posed above.  Adopting the real lessons from the Warriors (moving the ball, moving off the ball, abandoning iso) on offense and defense (pre-switching, communicating) has also catapulted the Kings out of the grave, so perhaps other teams will learn the defensive lessons available.

Kerr's time working with Popovich definitely influenced his decisions in terms of personnel and shaping the team's tactic to maximize the skill sets of the players.  Pop never had an otherworldly three-point shooter with the willingness to move off the ball like Curry - if he had, we might talk about the Spurs as revolutionizing basketball.

So for me, Kerr has provided a lot of excellence in the NBA, and helped it emerge from the Dark Ages of two-plus decades of kind of lousy play by showing how structured offense and defense can play the percentages and result in winning (especially with an otherworldly shooter leading the team).