King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 I’m sick and tired of seeing people say “oh, he had a right to be angry. Robb insulted him.” listen, Robb broke a marriage pact that Walder got via extortion of a 15 year. Walder Frey than gave a separate oath to Robb after his was crowned King. Upon Robb’s marriage to Jeyne, the Freys left him, and Robb graciously allowed it. It was treason against their sworn king, but Robb did not quarrel with them or seek to punish them for it. Nor did he seem to bare them ill will for it. Then, to try and bring the Freys back into the fold, he offers them Edmure’s hand. Edmure held the equivalent rank of what Robb’s rank was at the time of the original pact. It was the exact same deal the Freys got the first time. Given the fact that the Freys broke an oath to their King, it was a more than fair offer. Despite that, the Freys still did the unthinkable. They had no just reason to do it other than they felt they needed to jump ship. So to those defending them, and you know who you are, stop it. You are wrong, and it’s annoying to have keep telling you that. Lyanna<3Rhaegar, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9, Ser Arthurs Dawn and 3 others 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 1 hour ago, King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd said: I’m sick and tired of seeing people say “oh, he had a right to be angry. Robb insulted him.” Well he was entitled to be angry, but the response was way out of proportion. It is also hypocritical of him to get angry about other people breaking agreements when he breached his agreement to his Tully overlords multiple times before anyway. But yes I too am fed up of seeing the same endless crap about how Robb not going through with the Wedding gives Walder a free pass to break a fundamental law and murder thousands of people just because his feelings are hurt. Terrorthatflapsinthenight9, Ser Arthurs Dawn and SaffronLady 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 Walder is perhaps the last person qualified to complain about honor and broken promises and pacts, knowing that he has broken his promises and weaseled out of his vassal duties countless times and did commit the worst breach of honor and of the laws of gods and men with the Red Wedding. He complains about others not giving him and his house the respect he feels entitled too despite being a slimy, hypocrital petty and opportunistic asshole who treats others like crap doesn't even bother fullfilling his duties, and only does things if he can get a big benefit of it. It's small wonder he and his house were so disliked and looked down upon before the Red Wedding. Ser Arthurs Dawn and Lyanna<3Rhaegar 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 It really should not need arguing that the murder of 3,500 people, in breach of your society's most sacred obligations, is a grossly disproportionate response to breach of a marriage contract. But, apparently, it does need arguing. astarkchoice, The hairy bear, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 (edited) To play devils advocate (which probably pays better than one for good guys) its more than just the insult to his house and the precedent it would set to allow people to break pacts with his house without consequence. Walder like roose has little honour thus is looking at the situation with cold rationale. The starks have just lost winterfell , lots of heirs , renlys dead and stannis whupped. The lannsiters now have the reach as their ally and dorne. Robb loses jamie and the karstarks and the ironborn havent even started their invasion proper ans for some.bizzare unknown reason lysa isnt bringing the vale forces to back her kin! The freys have bled for this alliance and most importantly have lost the clear heir to the twins in battle messing up walders sucession plans and possibly opening them up to a messy civil war. The war itself looks like the northerners will retreat north with all their stolen westerlands loot to try and pry the ironborn out of the north which could take months if even possible , without a navy it may be left to a messy settlement and some northern land losses taking ages to sort out ..........meanwhile the full wrath whats left of the westerlands , reach and possibly (now that stannis and renly seem out of the game) parts of the stormlands, crownlands and dorne will fall on the already ravaged riverlands and lord frey will be following the uninspiring leadership of edmure for that!!!! The twins is on the best route north so unquestionably will be attacked at some point Walder reaches out and finds roose on the same page. The boltons were old rivals for the starks for the north and now the board seems set for change. The starks alliances that helped make them the norths undisputed rulers over the boltons for centuries have been altered!!! The karstarks become anti stark , the manderlys led by a seeming coward, much of the west coast esp the fiercely pro stark bear island will be fighting off ironborn and possibly never win, winterfell itself fallen, hornwood next door to bolton land is up for grabs Rooses is on great terms with his seemingly anti stark sister in law lady dustin so she has one major house and where she goes so will her dads house! Roose has already married a frey girl so has more reason to sway towards walder (he may even be showing signs of affection or as close to it as somone like him can feel to his new wife !!! ) plus to make room she and some frey forces are going north too . Walders plan looks like it will take a lot of hostages and marriages to secure it . Not only will the umbers leadership either be dead or hostage but the rumoured threat of a king beyond the wall means they cant mobilze to fight vs bolton efectively either as any wildling invasion has them 1st in the firing line. The cherry ontop is ramsay was out of the loop,captured for sick crimes (possibly pushing roose towards agreeing with walder anyway) .......then out the blue ramsay recontacts him from the deadfort after escaping as reek!....its an extraordinary bit of luck !!!!! ramsay is ordered to spare freys and go ahead and ambush a substantial part of the remaining pro stark military left!! A huge force and senior figures that an anti roose rebellion could have formed around is massacred..roose is now utterly on board. To sweeten the deal further tywins own son and neds daughter.will form house lannister of winterfell to both utterly cement his rule and give somone the remaining loyal bitter pro stark crowd will feel obliged to help and serve but are on his side!! Tywin himself is warm to the deal and offers walder all he could hope for in return ie the welding his family into the lannisters , manderlys and boltons.....if hes gonna do something that will be hated he wants to ensure the next gen are so embedded and interbred into the royal dynasty that any attack on a frey is an attack on the new regieme! Tywinndoes keep lordship of the riverlands out of his hands but creating house frey of riverrun and the half frey new house lannister of darry more than compensates!!! Overall when you look at walder and roose as a little socipathic and verybpower hungry and not tied to a notion of honour (but are prideful) his actions fit his character...his shitty nasty selfish little character, well written as someone who demands respect,loyalty etc but shows none would be. Edited June 14, 2023 by astarkchoice sifth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 No, but "something, something, Robb betrayed him" and "something, something, this totally justifies a blood bath wedding" and let's not forget "something, something, all Starks are evil and got what they deserved". LongRider, astarkchoice, Craving Peaches and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 33 minutes ago, sifth said: No, but "something, something, Robb betrayed him" and "something, something, this totally justifies a blood bath wedding" and let's not forget "something, something, all Starks are evil and got what they deserved". It would be hilarious (briefly) to see this level of fanaticism applied to characters other than Daenerys and the Targaryens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 25 minutes ago, sifth said: It’s pure madness, though it comes from the minds of trolls at best and sociopaths at worst. Heck I’m convinced some of the members of the “all Starks are evil gang” are possibly bots. What on earth makes them think Daenerys would even approve of the Freys and Boltons? Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd Posted June 14, 2023 Author Share Posted June 14, 2023 Just now, SeanF said: What on earth makes them think Daenerys would even approve of the Freys and Boltons? Exactly, the Red Wedding would horrify her, and she’d get approval from pretty much everyone to Dracarysing the Twins. The Boltons, the minute she finds out half of what Ramsay has done she would feed him and his father to Drogon. SeanF, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 and Ser Arthurs Dawn 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 13 minutes ago, King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd said: Exactly, the Red Wedding would horrify her, and she’d get approval from pretty much everyone to Dracarysing the Twins. The Boltons, the minute she finds out half of what Ramsay has done she would feed him and his father to Drogon. It's not as if either House stood by the Targaryens in Robert's Rebellion, so neither has any claim to her goodwill. If she wished to secure goodwill in the North and Riverlands, executing them would be a no-brainer. Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 and LongRider 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 18 minutes ago, SeanF said: What on earth makes them think Daenerys would even approve of the Freys and Boltons? This. On top of what others have said, this one is truly baffling. Because it shows that the TARGA fanatics not only don’t get the story in a general sense, but worse, they have no grasp on the character they blindly worship. The notion that Dany would think what Walder did was totes cool, and that Ramsay has the right and is entitled to as many rapes and murders as he wishes, and that Janos Slynt is a hero is beyond fucking laughable. Dany would despise every single one of these villains, and I hope the ones still alive hang in there so she can roast them and feed them to her dragons. sifth, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9, SaffronLady and 4 others 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 Aegon will conquer the Westerlands with the Golden Company, this means the release of Lord Edmure and his child, so there will be nothing to prevent the small folk of the Riverlands to raise in rebellion, if Aegon crashes the army of Lord Daven Lannister, Freys are doomed, they have no more military forces, the old sack of worms will end up under the mercy of Lady Stoneheart. Golden Company has elephants, it won't be a surprise if some prisoners will suffer being smashed by them as a form of punishment that was common in India, I don't think Aegon will order to burn at a stake his enemies as Aerys did. I want to remind you that Wyman turned some Freys into pies and Boltons ate them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 (edited) The people I want to see die very bad in the next books are : the Freys, in particular Lothar, Walder, Black Walder, the Brave Companions, the Boltons, the Mountain Men. I don't know how many war crimes Freys did in the name of greed, cowardice and power, they deserve to die screaming with the rest of the roaches Edited June 14, 2023 by KingAerys_II Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd Posted June 14, 2023 Author Share Posted June 14, 2023 1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said: Aegon will conquer the Westerlands with the Golden Company, this means the release of Lord Edmure and his child, so there will be nothing to prevent the small folk of the Riverlands to raise in rebellion, if Aegon crashes the army of Lord Daven Lannister, Freys are doomed, they have no more military forces, the old sack of worms will end up under the mercy of Lady Stoneheart. Golden Company has elephants, it won't be a surprise if some prisoners will suffer being smashed by them as a form of punishment that was common in India, I don't think Aegon will order to burn at a stake his enemies as Aerys did. I want to remind you that Wyman turned some Freys into pies and Boltons ate them What you’ve said is possible but I don’t think likely. I’m certain it’ll be the BWB if anyone that frees Edmure, Roslyn, and Jeyne. I also think Daven Lannister will be killed in Riverrun during the Red Wedding 2.0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 12 hours ago, King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd said: Walder Frey than gave a separate oath to Robb after his was crowned King. The Freys are definitely scum, and Walder most of all ... but he didn't swear fealty to Robb as his king. He only saw Robb in person when Robb passed the Twins and then when he showed up again. Such Freys who were with Robb at Riverrun and then with him on his western campaign did him homage as king ... but not Walder Frey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 Freys need to be punished with the blood eagle and exposed on the Twins to show people what happen to coward and evil traitors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, KingAerys_II said: Freys need to be punished with the blood eagle and exposed on the Twins to show people what happen to coward and evil traitors Their farmlands should be taken to be used for making weirwood forests, a tree planted for each Northerner and Old Gods believing Rivermen and I'd suggest that they themselves be used as weirwood fertilizer but it would taint the purity of the trees. Edited June 14, 2023 by Corvo the Crow kissdbyfire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Lord Varys said: The Freys are definitely scum, and Walder most of all ... but he didn't swear fealty to Robb as his king. He only saw Robb in person when Robb passed the Twins and then when he showed up again. Such Freys who were with Robb at Riverrun and then with him on his western campaign did him homage as king ... but not Walder Frey. Oh good news for Chett then, since Walder himself didn't personally attend to his case and sent a son, perhaps he can also make such claims and leave the Watch. The son being a bastard would also help for his case. Edited June 14, 2023 by Corvo the Crow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 44 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Oh good news for Chett then, since Walder himself didn't personally attend to his case and sent a son, perhaps he can also make such claims and leave the Watch. The son being a bastard would also help for his case. Nah, a feudal relationship between lord and king is personal. If you don't do homage to a king, don't swear fealty, the king in question isn't your king. Walder broke guest right and broke Robb's trust ... but he didn't betray his king. And neither did Roose. He also never did homage to Robb as his king nor as his lord. When they separated Ned was still alive. Chett was given the choice to take the black and did it. You cannot be forced to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted June 15, 2023 Share Posted June 15, 2023 Robb Stark broke his oath to Walder and insulted the Freys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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