Sansa and Cersei: Sides of the Same Coin

[Nevets]

22 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

So I don’t like using the show as evidence, nor do I think Cersei and Sansa are the same, but I agree that there are very strong parallels between them, although Cersei is much more extreme in her dislikable behavior.

Both mistreat their brother, the “bastard in their father’s eyes”. Sansa is cruel to Jon, while Cersei is physically abusive to Tyrion. Of course the situations aren’t exactly the same, Cersei blames Tyrion for her mothers death, while in the case of Jon it’s his mother who is dead.

Cersei pushes her best friend down a well, while in Sansa’s case, Jeyne Poole suffers a fate some might consider as bad or worse than drowning in a well, but with a far less literal and direct push from Sansa. Still, Sansa’s callous disregard for her best friend is a possible parallel to Cersei.

Both Cersei and Sansa have ambitions of being queen, Cersei dreaming of Rhaegar and Sansa of Joff. Cersei lies to Jamie about it, while Sansa lies about the Trident incident. They would both go on to be victims of royal abuse, and participate in the murder of the abuser.

I don’t think we know how this parallel will play out, but I do think that how Sansa deals with Sweetrobin will be the breaking point. If she participates in a plot to poison her cousin and marry his heir to usurp his seat, then I think she’s headed down the same road as Cersei. If she is able to save her cousin, then she can hopefully be a foil to Cersei rather than a reflection.

Lots of things wrong here.

Sansa was not cruel to Jon.  She did treat him a bit differently, in a snobbish sort of way, but no more than that.  Jon has occasional thoughts about her, and they're never unfavorable.

Sansa had every reason to believe Jeyne would be taken care of and would not come to harm.  I strongly suspect she will not be happy when she finds out otherwise.  The whip marks on Jeyne's back are a Chekhov's Gun if I ever saw one, and all clues lead to Littlefinger, and hence Sansa.

I have a hard time imagining her killing Sweetrobin willingly or deliberately.  By accident, maybe.  But she's neither ambitious enough nor venal enough to do it on purpose.

4 hours ago, sifth said:

Sansa’s personality is nothing like Cersei. Are you trying to infer that she’s evil like Cersei, simply because she was happy to see Joffrey did a painful death? The guy was an absolute monster to her, who both physically and mentally abused her. 

I got the impression that she was horrified at Joffrey's death.  Admittedly, some of that may have been the realization of her own role, but while she didn't like him, I don't think she wanted him murdered.

 

Yes, there are certain parallels between Sansa and Cersei.  You can do that with lots of characters though.  And trying to force commonalities isn't helpful and leads to bad conclusions.

[Mourning Star]

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Lots of things wrong here.

You mean you disagree, that’s allowed!

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Sansa was not cruel to Jon.
 

Come on… she was cruel. 

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

She did treat him a bit differently, in a snobbish sort of way, but no more than that.

This is a description of cruelty. I’m not saying she had him beaten with sticks, just that she was mean. She was mean.

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Jon has occasional thoughts about her, and they're never unfavorable.

More credit to him.

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Sansa had every reason to believe Jeyne would be taken care of and would not come to harm.

After her father and all his men were killed?

Because they take such great care of her?

Unintended consequences are still consequences. 

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I strongly suspect she will not be happy when she finds out otherwise.  The whip marks on Jeyne's back are a Chekhov's Gun if I ever saw one, and all clues lead to Littlefinger, and hence Sansa.

Sort of a drop in the bucket compared to Ned’s death honestly…

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I have a hard time imagining her killing Sweetrobin willingly or deliberately.  By accident, maybe.  But she's neither ambitious enough nor venal enough to do it on purpose.

She is certainly ambitious, but I do want to believe she has enough morality left to not deliberately poison Sweetrobin for the sake of killing him and usurping him, but responsibility doesn’t require intent.

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I got the impression that she was horrified at Joffrey's death.  Admittedly, some of that may have been the realization of her own role, but while she didn't like him, I don't think she wanted him murdered.

I don’t fault people for wanting their enemies dead, it’s how they treat their friends and family that concerns me.

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Yes, there are certain parallels between Sansa and Cersei.  You can do that with lots of characters though.  And trying to force commonalities isn't helpful and leads to bad conclusions.

Yes, although the parallels between Sansa and Cersei are way stronger than most and seem, at least to me, to be very intentional. I would speculate that their are two good reasons to do this, either show how a seemingly good character can become like Cersei, or how a good character can overcome and be better.

I think time will tell.

Finally, while I think a lot of people still want to deny it, I have to believe that Sansa ends up as the matriarch of House Lannister by stories end, fits too well.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Sort of a drop in the bucket compared to Ned’s death honestly…

Now you're saying Sansa caused Ned's death? It's true, you do get a lot wrong.

[Nevets]

10 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Now you're saying Sansa caused Ned's death? It's true, you do get a lot wrong.

I think they were saying that Littlefinger caused Ned's death, which they regard as more serious than anything done to Jeyne.  Littlefinger was certainly responsible for Ned's arrest.  It's widely speculated by readers that he arranged Ned's execution as well but this isn't proven.  In any case, I don't know how Sansa would find out about that even if it is true.

[Mourning Star]

32 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Now you're saying Sansa caused Ned's death? It's true, you do get a lot wrong.

You are rude and clearly misunderstood.

Littlefinger explicitly betrayed Ned and plotted his downfall. From lying about the dagger, to having the gold cloaks side with Cersei.

At that point, his mistreatment of Jeyne Poole is just another tear in the sea.

Sansa betrayed Ned, by running to Cersei, but she didn’t kill her father. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Mourning Star

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

Yes, there are certain parallels between Sansa and Cersei.  You can do that with lots of characters though.  And trying to force commonalities isn't helpful and leads to bad conclusions.

Both Arya and Jamie use a sword............wow, they're practically the same person, lol

Edited June 15, 2023 by sifth

[Moiraine Sedai]

Cersei had a mean streak from the time she was a child. She murdered her friend. She was not kind to baby Tyrion. Sansa is selfish but she’s not mean. Cersei is smarter but Sansa is calmer and more composed.  
 

Robert and Cersei deserved each other. They were terrible people and even worse parents. Sansa and Tyrion was not a happy match but it could work as long as they stay in King’s Landing. The North will not accept Lord Tyrion.  Tyrion will fool around and she will too.  

[Hugorfonics]

Yea! It's like seeing double.

The Hands daughter, a child, being sent to the court of a mad king. King stays mad or gets madder, gets really mad at the Hand and now it's a child alone in a mad kings realm. Obviously Sansa had it worse, but we saw what the light version did to Cersei. 

.

"Please," she finished, "you have to let me marry Joffrey, I'll be ever so good a wife to him, you'll see. I'll be a queen just like you, I promise."

[Springwatch]

On 6/15/2023 at 8:34 PM, Mourning Star said:

You are rude and clearly misunderstood.

Touché! Rudeness is the bane of any forum; I blush to stand accused of it.

On 6/15/2023 at 8:34 PM, Mourning Star said:

Littlefinger explicitly betrayed Ned and plotted his downfall. From lying about the dagger, to having the gold cloaks side with Cersei.

At that point, his mistreatment of Jeyne Poole is just another tear in the sea.

Sansa betrayed Ned, by running to Cersei, but she didn’t kill her father.

Ok but now I wish you wouldn't use the word 'betrayed'. You mean she betrayed Ned's trust, right? That subtlety gets lost when the overwhelming point of interest is whether she betrayed him to his death. Fewer people would believe Sansa got her father killed/imprisoned if the word 'betrayal' wasn't thrown around so much.

[Mourning Star]

On 6/19/2023 at 10:50 AM, Springwatch said:

Touché! Rudeness is the bane of any forum; I blush to stand accused of it.

All good, I'm guilty myself often enough.

On 6/19/2023 at 10:50 AM, Springwatch said:

Ok but now I wish you wouldn't use the word 'betrayed'. You mean she betrayed Ned's trust, right? That subtlety gets lost when the overwhelming point of interest is whether she betrayed him to his death. Fewer people would believe Sansa got her father killed/imprisoned if the word 'betrayal' wasn't thrown around so much.

I don't know, it seems like a pretty big and substantive betrayal to me, though not to the point literally killing Ned.

The conflict was coming, and it was Littlefinger's choice to side with Cersei that really decided the matter (since he owned the Gold Cloaks in all but name). However, Sansa did clearly disobey her father and run to Cersei with his plans, which I think qualifies as a pretty solid betrayal. Not that we can't sympathize and understand her motives, but it was still selfish and disloyal. No interesting character is perfect, and I do think GRRM's plan for Sansa has become more interesting as the storytelling evolved, being less of a Cersei-lite and more a main character in her own right. I do think the jury is still out on what the future of Sansa's plot looks like, and personally do hope it becomes more about overcoming her situation than a tale of a victim becoming a villain.

[csuszka1948]

On 6/15/2023 at 6:29 PM, Mourning Star said:

You mean you disagree, that’s allowed!

Come on… she was cruel. 

This is a description of cruelty. I’m not saying she had him beaten with sticks, just that she was mean. She was mean.

 

 

 

Since when are 'meanness' and cruelty the same?

Besides, when was Sansa 'mean' to Jon?

Calling him half-brother is actually not a sign of meanness, it's the opposite: if she was mean, she would have called him bastard. Calling him half-brother sticks to the conventions (that she has learnt from Cat and Septa Mordane) while showing that he is still family.

On 6/15/2023 at 6:29 PM, Mourning Star said:

More credit to him.

 

 

 

Really? Jon isn't a complete saint, he remembers the people who treated him unfairly (mainly Catelyn) and somewhat resents it (as it is natural). If he felt that Sansa treated him as such, he would have definitely recalled it once or twice.

Edited June 22, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Mourning Star]

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Since when are 'meanness' and cruelty the same?

They are very similar words and you are being the definition of pedantic.

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Besides, when was Sansa 'mean' to Jon?

You know what’s being referred to and are entitled to make your own opinion.

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Really? Jon isn't a complete saint, he remembers the people who treated him unfairly (mainly Catelyn) and somewhat resents it (as it is natural). If he felt that Sansa treated him as such, he would have definitely recalled it once or twice.

Really.

He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant.

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

They are very similar words and you are being the definition of pedantic.

I don't think it is that pedantic. On a scale of badness I think most people would definitely rate 'cruelness' above just 'meanness'. At least to me, cruel behaviour would be on a different level to mean behaviour in terms of level of maliciousness.

[Mourning Star]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think it is that pedantic. On a scale of badness I think most people would definitely rate 'cruelness' above just 'meanness'. At least to me, cruel behaviour would be on a different level to mean behaviour in terms of level of maliciousness.

If you want to make some meaningful distinction between Sansa being mean to Jon and Cat being cruel then sure, go for it, seems pedantic to me.

In this story “cruel” describes everything from winter to Moon Boy’s mockery.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Craving Peaches]

29 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

If you want to make some meaningful distinction between Sansa being mean to Jon and Cat being cruel then sure, go for it, seems pedantic to me.

If you are talking about whether I think Catelyn was worse towards Jon than Sansa, then yes, I think she was. Sansa makes some unkind comments implying Jon is 'only' their half brother, Catelyn tells Jon she wished he was comatose instead of Bran. I don't think anything Sansa has done tops that. Sansa's behaviour to me comes off as haughty and snobbish, whereas Catelyn is more spiteful, acting more like Jon personally wronged her.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Mourning Star]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If you are talking about whether I think Catelyn was worse towards Jon than Sansa, then yes, I think she was. Sansa makes some unkind comments implying Jon is 'only' their half brother, Catelyn tells Jon she wished he was comatose instead of Bran. I don't think anything Sansa has done tops that. Sansa's behaviour to me comes off as haughty and snobbish, whereas Catelyn is more spiteful, acting more like Jon personally wronged her.

I’m just responding to the pedantic complaints about saying Sansa was cruel to Jon vs mean to Jon, I used cruel because that’s what Ned calls Cat… but if that’s somehow offensive to people and they need a different word to use for the negative behavior towards Jon, I don’t care. Seems like a silly discussion to me.

[csuszka1948]

16 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

 

He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant.

 

 

 

Did he miss Lady Catelyn? I don't recall it. The fact that he is missing Sansa is a sign that he was fond of her, even if they had little in common.

Yes, Sansa called him half-brother, not bastard. If she was mean (or cruel), she would have called him bastard - just like Cat did - but she didn't. She stuck to the social conventions (being unable to recognize or acknowledge their wrongness), but at the same time expressed that she considerers Jon as family as her half-brother.

Also, cruelty requires a willful intent to cause pain and suffering, and from Sansa' POV we see that she has no intention whatsoever of doing this to Jon.

Edited June 23, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

15 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I’m just responding to the pedantic complaints about saying Sansa was cruel to Jon vs mean to Jon, I used cruel because that’s what Ned calls Cat… but if that’s somehow offensive to people and they need a different word to use for the negative behavior towards Jon, I don’t care. Seems like a silly discussion to me.

 

Yes, that's the word Ned uses towards Cat's treatment of Jon, not Sansa's treatment of Jon.

There is quite a bit of difference between those two. Cat's treatment (calling him bastard, ignoring him, wanting Ned to send him away when Ned goes away) was very unkind&mean and perceived as cruel, while Sansa's treatment (calling him half-brother, not spending much time with him because their interests didn't align) isn't mean at all. 

[SeanF]

I’d say Sansa’s treatment of Jon was formal and distant, rather than mean.

[Springwatch]

44 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I’d say Sansa’s treatment of Jon was formal and distant, rather than mean.

I disagree! She advised him how to talk to girls - that's not formal and distant, that's cute and little-sister-like, and he keeps it in his memory of her.

The division between Jon and Sansa that we're actually shown is 'don't tell Sansa' , i.e. Sansa does report rule-breaking, every time. And of course Jon must sympathise with Arya who focuses her unhappiness on Sansa at the time.