Corvo the Crow Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 A few months back I opened a thread titled which ruler has the lowest kill count, because it was so obvious who caused the most death so far and even more obvious that said person was going to only rack up more kills. I think it is only logical to follow it up with a thread that is about who saved the most people. My answer would be Jon. He prevented the wildlings from crossing the Wall as a semi-organized invading force, saving tens of millions of Westerosi. While wildlings themselves don't number much (30-40.000 when Jon first saw them) letting so many hostiles armed to the bone entering Westeros especially during a time of turmoil would have caused even more chaos, not to mention NW effectively ceasing to exist would remove the only pitiful defense the people of Westeros has against the coming Others. After thwarting Mance's invasion plans (thanks in great part to Stannis who should come right up after Jon in this list) he supplied Stannis with the required army to bring order to North which is something NW would need if they want to have any hope of having a fighting chance, he then brought the remaining wildlings into the fold, saving their lives while also increasing the amount of fighting men he has and also denying others more fresh, or rather, rotten bodies to throw against humanity. Stannis as said deserves second place because even though he played a huge part in saving the Wall Jon's actions after this (providing Stannis with an army, bringing wildlings etc) have more impact in the overall total. So basically, Jon is the savior of humanity, the First Hero in a new Age of Heroes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 (edited) I agree with Jon but if Stannis had just taken Renly's offer of being Lord of Storm's End rather than murdering him the WotFK would likely have been much shorter, Robb would probably still be alive, the Realm would be united to fight the Others and Daenerys (perhaps sans Dorne but they are mostly useless from what we have seen so far), etc... Edited June 23, 2023 by Craving Peaches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 The fallout, the disaster, from Jon will be the worst because it will result in the fall of the Night’s Watch and allowing the White Walkers to cross. It’s not only people he wants to murder who will die because of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 No participant in The War of the Five Kings, saved lives, in net terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 I don't want to be pedantic but I don't believe LCNW counts as a ruler. Xander Baratheon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: I agree with Jon but if Stannis had just taken Renly's offer of being Lord of Storm's End rather than murdering him the WotFK would likely have been much shorter, Robb would probably still be alive, the Realm would be united to fight the Others and Daenerys (perhaps sans Dorne but they are mostly useless from what we have seen so far), etc... Again, the flip side is that Renly could have supported his brother’s claim just as Stannis did for Robert and would have done for Renly if Renly was born first. Xander Baratheon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, James Steller said: Again, the flip side is that Renly could have supported his brother’s claim just as Stannis did for Robert and would have done for Renly if Renly was born first. True, but Renly supporting Stannis drags the war out because I doubt the Tyrells would back Stannis. At best, they would probably remain neutral, meaning you then have Stormlands + Dragonstone vs Westerlands vs North and Riverlands, with Vlae and Tyrells neutral. I don't think that would end the war as quickly as Stormlands + Reach + Dragonstone vs Westerlands vs (possibley) North if Robb and Renly can't work something out. So overall I think Stannis killing Renly leads to more peopel being killed than Stannis taking Renly's offer, which also means the Realm should be more intact to fight the Others because the King is more popular and the War doesn't last as long... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: I agree with Jon but if Stannis had just taken Renly's offer of being Lord of Storm's End rather than murdering him the WotFK would likely have been much shorter, Robb would probably still be alive, the Realm would be united to fight the Others and Daenerys (perhaps sans Dorne but they are mostly useless from what we have seen so far), etc... Intwresting thought Had he just taken renlys offer..had renly take the capital and THEN unleashed the shadowbaby itd have been soo much easier for him! frenin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: So basically, Jon is the savior of humanity, the First Hero in a new Age of Heroes. Don't care if your numbers are right or wrong. That was a closer with authority. Well done, Corvo. It would be good to see more statements like that, leading to discussion about the contemporary aligning of this Age of Heroes as this is building in Martin's cycles of time. There was a topic not too far back where in some of us discussed the pros and cons of Aerys perhaps just blowing up the city and having done with it versus the losses during the WOT5K. I thought there would be as many as half a million dead (or something like that) in a single explosion and thought a certain kingslayer did good earning his moniker when someone pointed out to me that the WOT5K cost more than that many lives in the 1st wave. It is an interesting discussion about the cost of life, death and war. Would it have been better to simply have done with it all in a single moment or would another war's death toll have been added to that horror in Kings Landing in the end any way? Hard to say, but a really interesting thing to ponder. Only looks like it has nothing to do with the topic. In the back of my mind I am considering Mance and his Free Folk getting South and what that might look like because Mance was a ruler, too, King Beyond the Wall. His losses were many as we were told he assembled a host of 100,000 Wildlings and only hear of about 3000 at the Wall at the end of ADWD. Neither the thin Nights Watch, the Others nor Stannis' small assembly killed 77,000 people. Where does Mance Rayder fall on your list? Corvo the Crow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: Intwresting thought Had he just taken renlys offer..had renly take the capital and THEN unleashed the shadowbaby itd have been soo much easier for him! Yeah, if SE was just a murder trap, a much better path would be to just not get in your brother’s way as he crushes the Lannisters, restores order to the realm, etc. and then do it after having no record of openly opposing King Renly. Then you bring in the new human sacrifice religion and begin the proscribed hit lists of Stannis long and troubled memory. But it would have at least been good for a while between the victory and the Fire God’s hungry reign. Edited June 23, 2023 by James Arryn Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthurs Dawn Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 22 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: Intwresting thought Had he just taken renlys offer..had renly take the capital and THEN unleashed the shadowbaby itd have been soo much easier for him! There's the easy way, and then there's the Stannis way. Which is the sketchy, yet short-term easy fix that also makes the end goal *that* much harder to achieve. Alester Florent and Corvo the Crow 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: True, but Renly supporting Stannis drags the war out because I doubt the Tyrells would back Stannis. At best, they would probably remain neutral, meaning you then have Stormlands + Dragonstone vs Westerlands vs North and Riverlands, with Vlae and Tyrells neutral. I don't think that would end the war as quickly as Stormlands + Reach + Dragonstone vs Westerlands vs (possibley) North if Robb and Renly can't work something out. So overall I think Stannis killing Renly leads to more peopel being killed than Stannis taking Renly's offer, which also means the Realm should be more intact to fight the Others because the King is more popular and the War doesn't last as long... Varys would have still turned on Renly and killed him so that Aegon could sweep in. And even if he didn't, Dany was always going to be on the horizon with her dragons. James Steller and Xander Baratheon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted June 23, 2023 Author Share Posted June 23, 2023 5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: I agree with Jon but if Stannis had just taken Renly's offer of being Lord of Storm's End rather than murdering him the WotFK would likely have been much shorter, Robb would probably still be alive, the Realm would be united to fight the Others and Daenerys (perhaps sans Dorne but they are mostly useless from what we have seen so far), etc... Agree but I believe, taking the fight against the Others into account, it is good that Wot5K happened. Only Stannis gave a fig’s leaf about the struggles of the Watch and even that happened only after he lost almost his entire army and therefore the chance to ascend to the throne through the usual ways. Even Ned who’s not just any ruler but a Stark ruler of the North whose brother holds a senior position in the Watch didn’t take the NW seriously. The Watch only survived thanks to a claimant, Stannis, getting pushed out of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Agree but I believe, taking the fight against the Others into account, it is good that Wot5K happened. Only Stannis gave a fig’s leaf about the struggles of the Watch and even that happened only after he lost almost his entire army and therefore the chance to ascend to the throne through the usual ways. Even Ned who’s not just any ruler but a Stark ruler of the North whose brother holds a senior position in the Watch didn’t take the NW seriously. The Watch only survived thanks to a claimant, Stannis, getting pushed out of the game. True. If only Stannis got the letter before deciding to set sail and kill Renly, then you have more men with Stannis to defend the Wall, plus all the benefits of Renly winning the WotFK. Best of both worlds... astarkchoice and Corvo the Crow 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted June 23, 2023 Author Share Posted June 23, 2023 6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: True. If only Stannis got the letter before deciding to set sail and kill Renly, then you have more men with Stannis to defend the Wall, plus all the benefits of Renly winning the WotFK. Best of both worlds... But would he set sail before he had lost all his hope in taking the Throne? Even with the intention of helping the NW he’d lean on taking the throne so he could help them. In fact he says so himself. Xander Baratheon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 Just now, Corvo the Crow said: But would he set sail before he had lost all his hope in taking the Throne? Even with the intention of helping the NW he’d lean on taking the throne so he could help them. In fact he says so himself. That's just it. Stannis isn't a buffoon. He thinks it is his duty to take the IT when it may be his duty to help save the world. He's got a bug in his bonnet that there is some great task before him. It is natural to assume his brother's duties, bothersome as that may be. It doesn't occur to Stannis he may be a savior. He doesn't get AAR despite the ceremonies and flaming swords. His mind doesn't work that way. He is a practical man. Sadly, Stannis does know he's got something important to do and sees himself at the center of it rather than the periphery. Helper is beneath him and that is Stannis' fatal flaw. Stannis will sacrifice it all because he believes that's what he's got to do when it may not be what he has to do at all. He may only need to stand with a group of heroes and fight. But that's not his style is it? Xander Baratheon and Corvo the Crow 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Qohor Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 Lord Quenton Hightower - carried out a harsh but effective lock down of Oldtown when the grey plague hit, thereby saving millions across Westeros and potentially even Essos. Then got his throat slit. Torrhen Stark - bent the knee and saved thousands of his own men. (Possibly) Daenerys - Sure she's killed some people and caused some deaths but she definitely saved some lives by ending slavery and by buying the Unsullied trainees, she's saved the lives of hundred if not thousands of new born babies. Xander Baratheon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: True. If only Stannis got the letter before deciding to set sail and kill Renly, then you have more men with Stannis to defend the Wall, plus all the benefits of Renly winning the WotFK. Best of both worlds... There is 0.0000006% chance Stannis goes north without the Blackwater. Not while the crown is yet to be won. He did not choose going north over taking KL, he chose it over the only plan suggested aside from surrender; a petty payback raid on Claw Isle. Not remotely the same alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, James Arryn said: There is 0.0000006% chance Stannis goes north without the Blackwater. Not while the crown is yet to be won. He did not choose going north over taking KL, he chose it over the only plan suggested aside from surrender; a petty payback raid on Claw Isle. Not remotely the same alternative. Yes, I know he only went to the Watch because there is literally no other good option for him, I was just mentioning at as the best option Stannis could have taken to maximise the amount of people he saves after the WotFK started. Edited June 23, 2023 by Craving Peaches James Arryn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 I doubt if the wildlings would have been more than a local problem, South of the Wall. There’s thousands of square miles of sparsely populated land in the Gift, for them to settle. Xander Baratheon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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