The Fallen Commander

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

Jon died from loss of blood.  At least one of the daggers pierced an artery.  He lost consciousness immediately.  Reduction in body temperature would follow.  The latter is what Bran saw. 

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Jon died from loss of blood.  At least one of the daggers pierced an artery.  He lost consciousness immediately.  Reduction in body temperature would follow.  The latter is what Bran saw. 

Which dagger? Certainly not the one that grazed his neck, since there’s no description of blood squirting or spraying.

But don’t let me interrupt your wishful thinking.

[The Commentator]

On 7/7/2023 at 1:32 PM, Jon Fossoway said:

If Jon is declared dead and then revives, he should be relieved of his duty as a brother of the Night's Watch, no?

When Beric died and then got revived by Thoros, he basically cut ties with the Dondarrions, to the point of even barely remembering his bethroted, his castle and lands. This is set to be because of how Rahloo's magic works, sure, but the thing is that dying and reviving certainly brings something different back to life. In the case of Jon's vows, IF he actually died, and somehow gets revived, again: he should be relieved of his vows. 

I don’t approve of a minor technicality releasing people from an oath. Jon is an oath breaker so it may not matter either way. He will never be an acceptable choice to lead after his crimes.  

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

15 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

When Beric died and then got revived by Thoros, he basically cut ties with the Dondarrions, to the point of even barely remembering his bethroted, his castle and lands.

Although it’s not that he wanted to cut ties with them, it’s that he was physically unable to remember.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, The Commentator said:

I don’t approve of a minor technicality releasing people from an oath.

We all know the vows of the Night's Watch "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death."   If Jon is dead, he won't be revived, as the dead cannot be revived.  So, no worries about him being alive again.  However, if he is reanimated by magic, which is how all the dead are reanimated, then he will be a wight and continue to be dead. 

GRRM was asked if Beric was dead after Thoros reanimated him, and GRRM said he was.  "According to George R. R. Martin, Beric is no longer a living being after his first death; his heart does not beat and blood does not flow through his veins. In Martin's own words, Beric is "a wight animated by fire instead of by ice" quote found on Beric's wiki page. 

If Jon becomes a wight, he's dead and as a dead man, he is no longer a member of the Night's Watch.  He would be a wight animated by ice, more like Cold Hands, then Beric. 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

The plot is not done with Jon Snow but he will have a different kind of existence from this point going forward.  He will still be able to act in the world of the living through Ghost and communicate to the rest of the pack through Bran. 

[LongRider]

^^^^ Don’t count on it.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 10/16/2023 at 5:19 PM, LongRider said:

If Jon is dead, he won't be revived, as the dead cannot be revived.  So, no worries about him being alive again. However, if he is reanimated by magic, which is how all the dead are reanimated, then he will be a wight and continue to be dead. 

What’s the difference between revival and reanimation?

[SaffronLady]

6 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

What’s the difference between revival and reanimation?

He stops moving when the magic juice runs out if it's reanimation, but magic revivals across fantasy generally mean true life returned, for example Jesus.

[LongRider]

6 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

He stops moving when the magic juice runs out if it's reanimation, but magic revivals across fantasy generally mean true life returned, for example Jesus.

Thanks, I will argue however, GRRM has not done that in the story so far, and if Jon is dead then there is no resurrection for him.  
 

What I would like to see is Jon be critically wounded and, like when Bran injured, open his third eye. Bran did tell Jon to open his third eye, so that is what we see.   (I hope)

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

I don't much care for Jon but I'm sure he will come back in some shape or form.  I expect he'll be the champion for ice.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Wait, people don't like Jon Snow. I feel so confused sometimes in this forum, lol. I'd like to say...I essentially like all the main characters. All of em. Daenerys, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Catelyn, Eddard, Davos, Theon, Bran, Jaime, Brienne, Samwell - I like them all. The only main cast I "don't" like is Cersei, but I love to hate her (she is a great villain, I love her chapters in AFfC). I didn't like Theon in ACoK, and Jaime before he was a PoV, but GRRM made me like them after all. Now there are levels to my liking of them, but I like them all. I guess I do dislike some of the less main PoVs - Aeron and Asha I essentially dislike (especially Aeron) and Victorian I am at best indifferent to. Still, I guess one of reasons I like these books so much is GRRM made a lot of really interesting main characters I want to know more about. I would think disliking a character like Jon would make the book much harder to enjoy..he is like...the second most POV chapters or something right? Granted, Tyrion (who has the most) pisses me off at times, but in the end I find his chapters highly entertaining (I guess I love to hate him, too sometimes). I can't see Jon as someone people love to hate (he isn't written villainous all that much at all). Anyways, I am rambling, I'm sorry. 

Oh, and since I want to respond to this actual topic - I agree with @LongRider above, I think Jon will be actually alive, not a reanimated corpse. I don't know how that will work exactly, but...I just can't see him being dead. 

[Springwatch]

Well - I do think Jon is the ice dragon, and with Dany as champion of fire, he may be her opposite and equal. It doesn't need to follow that he represents Ice against Humanity. He could even be Ice for humanity.

Jon (like Waymar as it happens) wants to learn from the dead, which points him towards ice magic, the ice that preserves, and animates the wights - that is his arc, his purpose, and he also says the Wall is his (just as Dany says the dragons are hers) - and Mel confirms what we already knew, that the Wall a powerful locus of magic, the hinge of the world. All this he can grasp much more easily if he stays in the spirit world for a bit instead of immediate first aid/resurrection.

Tolkein's hero Aragorn (ranger, hero sword wielder and secret heir to the kingdom) raised an army of the dead - Jon might do the same, though maybe not literally.

I still don't like him. He's too much a hero from Young Adult fiction, and I grew out of that before it even arrived. Actually the entire Stark family was unbearably winsome in early AGOT, except Sansa (the heroine's worthless sister), and Cat (the hero's wicked stepmother). They all moved on, except Jon who is still a living cliche. Honestly dying is the first interesting thing he ever did - I feel almost excited to wonder what he'll do next.

[Jaenara Belarys]

@Craving Peaches

We were on the verge of greatness, we were this close to having an actual conversation. 

[Alester Florent]

Every time I see this topic come up I think it's about Jaime, click on it and groan when I remember it's another one of those threads. When will I learn?

[Jaenara Belarys]

3 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Every time I see this topic come up I think it's about Jaime, click on it and groan when I remember it's another one of those threads. When will I learn?

Ong, I legitmately thought that this was a serious post. Guess I have to list away Gizzard as a *****, ******, ******, etc. 

[The Gizzard of Oz]

Jon will return and continue with his wreckless goal of finding Arya.  It will be the final straw that leads to the complete collapse of the wall's defense.  I am pulling for Ser Aliser being at a safe distance away from the wall when Jon gets wighted and starts killing the Brothers. 

[The Gizzard of Oz]

On 7/7/2023 at 9:49 PM, John Suburbs said:

Or, it's just hyperbole, like when Thorne says Grenn is strong as an aurochs or the great lords call themselves wolves or lions or dragons.

Bran certainly does not fret over this vision of Jon dying, if that's what he saw.

And I don't see Jon thinking about revenge or murdering all crows. He's trying to defend himself and says "Ghost" just before his last thought (or was it his?): Stick them with the pointy end.

Bran has a lot on his plate to obsess over one little part of what looked like a dream.  He saw Jon die. The curtains came down and Jon's tragic performance ended.   It is as simple as that.  Jon didn't have a clue how to manage and lead his own men.  Killing Slynt was a stupid political move just to get his revenge.  Now his dying wish is more revenge. Then he comes back to do that.  It won't  end well for Jon but he will stir the North into chaos before his time is up. 

[SaffronLady]

3 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Jon will return and continue with his wreckless goal of finding Arya.

What?

3 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

It will be the final straw that leads to the complete collapse of the wall's defense.

The Wall has Mel and a couple of skinchangers guarding it. If the defenses fail, it would be the Others winning a magical battle, not a nonsense continuation of a nonsense start.

3 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Jon gets wighted and starts killing the Brothers. 

I'm sure you could convince Ran to create a fanfiction sub-forum...

3 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Jon didn't have a clue how to manage and lead his own men.

If he didn't he wouldn't have been elected in the first place.

3 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Killing Slynt was a stupid political move just to get his revenge. 

It was a sign that Jon does have clues on managing and leading his own men.

3 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Now his dying wish is more revenge.

Really? I don't think you've read the chapter.

3 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Then he comes back to do that.

He's not even dead through.

3 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

It won't  end well for Jon but he will stir the North into chaos before his time is up. 

Even Lord Commander Jaime Lannister's chopped-off hand becoming a golden spider and strangling people at random seems like a more plausible development.

[Darth Sidious]

Jon was not killed by the White Walkers nor the Boltons. He was removed by the men he led because he was acting against the good of the Night’s Watch and against the greater good of the people of Westeros. Jon was putting all of them in danger.  The men did what they did purely to protect the people of Westeros and themselves.  Bashing on poor Bowen Marsh is not going to change that.