Your Unpopular ASOIAF Opinions/Hot Takes

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

You have described having a completely normal emotional response as something bad, so am now wondering if you will remain consistent and apply the same logic to other characters. 

You're seeing things that are not there, I made no judgement on whether it was good or bad, just stated things as they're. Jaime is quite possessive of Cersei and viceversa. 

 

[Vante]

1.Aenys deserves more slack for his reign as a king he was a person that was raised into position he was unfit for. He didn’t fight for the position and fumble it in hubris. Monarchy is flawed the most capable people aren’t put in positions of power.

2. Queen allysane goes under the radar for being a terrible parent way too much.  Yes jaehaerhys was bad 9/10 out the two of the were peas in dysfunctional pod.(Her weird beef with viserra really showcased it)

3.  The targs after the dance of the dragon are the better characters than the ones pre dance.(idk if this is unpopular just putting that out there)

4. Maegor was not some necessary evil the targs needed to save their dynasty and he wasn’t that effective considering the faith were still a problem after his death.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Vante

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Vante said:

4. Maegor was not some necessary evil the targs needed to save their dynasty and he wasn’t that effective considering the faith were still a problem after his death.

Even if you accept he was a necessary evil in terms of getting rid of the Faith, whom as you point out he didn't manage to decisively deal with, that cannot be used to exonerate him from needlessly causing the deaths of all those innocent people anyway. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

23 hours ago, frenin said:

So did Jaime, that's my point.

He's a knowing and willing participant every step of the way.

He's as possessive with Cersei as Cersei is with him, he was outraged at the idea of her sleeping with someone else. How many years do you think Jaime would have suffered Robert's son, as in one who looked just like him but came out of his sister's legs, before he got Bran'd?

Jaime also resented both Robert and Ned because he felt they had done worse than him and he was reviled by everyone while they received honor, glory and utmost respect.

And let us not forget the one time Cersei did get pregnant with Robert... It was Jaime who get her the abortifacent.

 

None of that has any reason to happen without the original sin. In fact the moment the secret was out, and the moment Petyr or Varys figured it out it was out, war became unavoidable. And for that, Jaime share plenty of the blame.

 

Again, I'm not seeing the practical difference between Jorah and Shavepate 

I mean…I disagree. I do not think Jaime is an equal participant and I think it is ridiculous to say he is. Jaime is not the queen. He is not married to the King. He did not make the decision to abort the babies. Like. To call them equally responsible seems honest weird and like you are taking a different point (maybe that men and women are equally responsible for making baby, which I agree with)…but it just doesn’t make sense here. Jaime is a assistant manager at best in this situation. Someone else is makign decisions and MAYBE he agrees with thst choice…but here is the thing, Cersei would still do it even if Jaime disagreed. Cersei’s choice is what matters here in the end. 

[SaffronLady]

4 hours ago, Vante said:

The targs after the dance of the dragon are the better characters than the ones pre dance.(idk if this is unpopular just putting that out there)

I could agree they are more politicians with pragmatos, since they no longer have dragons any more, but I think whether they are "good" really is a question that runs case by case. Aerion, for one, I find very unlikeable.

[The Wolves]

29 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I mean…I disagree. I do not think Jaime is an equal participant and I think it is ridiculous to say he is. Jaime is not the queen. He is not married to the King. He did not make the decision to abort the babies. Like. To call them equally responsible seems honest weird and like you are taking a different point (maybe that men and women are equally responsible for making baby, which I agree with)…but it just doesn’t make sense here. Jaime is a assistant manager at best in this situation. Someone else is makign decisions and MAYBE he agrees with thst choice…but here is the thing, Cersei would still do it even if Jaime disagreed. Cersei’s choice is what matters here in the end. 

Jaime is the Kingsguard who swore to protect the King and not cuckold the King. 
 

But Jaime also made choices. He chose to give his sister three bastard incestuous children and robbed the Kings his heirs. 
 

And no Cersei wouldn’t have done it if Jaime disagreed. Cersei is to narcissistic and in love with Jaime to not have his children. 

[frenin]

58 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Jaime is not the queen. He is not married to the King.

True.

 

58 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He did not make the decision to abort the babies

So he did provide Cersei with the way to get rid of them but because he didn't make the initial decision... It's all good?

Odd.

 

59 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Cersei would still do it even if Jaime disagreed.

Disagree, Cersei is too up in her own ass to have children that weren't Jaime's.

Besides that Jaime was with Cersei 24/7. He'd have found out and likely kill both Cersei and the loverboy in a fit of rage.

[KingAerys_II]

The three heads of the dragon are a misconception of Asoiaf characters, they are not three different individuals , the red dragon is Daenerys, her three heads are the dragons, she is gonna lead the dragons by using the hellhorn

[KingAerys_II]

Jon is Azor Ahai, Shireen is the stone, her sacrifice will be useful to revive Jon, who will wake up as a dragon (Targaryen) 

Edited December 9, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Dofs]

12 hours ago, frenin said:

You're seeing things that are not there, I made no judgement on whether it was good or bad, just stated things as they're. Jaime is quite possessive of Cersei and viceversa. 

You have claimed that Jaime is possessive of Cersei in the context that he would have killed Cersei's child if it wasn't his. That means you have clearly meant that Jaime's supposed "possessiveness" was something bad.

And all of that based on the fact that Jaime hated that Cersei was sleeping with another man. So yeah, if, let's imagine, Catelyn cheats on Ned and Ned dislikes this, would you say the same thing about him? Would you even call him "possessive" in the first place?

Edited December 9, 2023 by Dofs

[frenin]

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

You have claimed that Jaime is possessive of Cersei in the context that he would have killed Cersei's child if it wasn't his.

Yes.

 

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

That means you have clearly meant that Jaime's supposed "possessiveness" was something bad.

That's up to you.

It's a trait he has however.

 

 

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

And all of that based on the fact that Jaime hated that Cersei was sleeping with another man.

More like he imagined himself killing Cersei for sleeping with another man.

 

 

8 hours ago, Dofs said:

So yeah, if, let's imagine, Catelyn cheats on Ned and Ned dislikes this, would you say the same thing about him? Would you even call him "possessive" in the first place?

Dislike? That's a big euphemism.

[Dofs]

47 minutes ago, frenin said:

That's up to you.

It's a trait he has however.

That's what you implied, not sure why are you trying to shy away from your words. Unless you agree with me now that it was a silly thing to write.

47 minutes ago, frenin said:

More like he imagined himself killing Cersei for sleeping with another man.

Must be in your edition of the books.

47 minutes ago, frenin said:

Dislike? That's a big euphemism.

So? Will you call him "possessive" in this case?

Edited December 9, 2023 by Dofs

[frenin]

55 minutes ago, Dofs said:

That's what you implied, not sure why are you trying to shy away from your words. Unless you agree with me now that it was a silly thing to write.

I didn't imply anything.

I said that he was possessive.

Nor do I intend to shy away from my words.

 

55 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Must be in your edition of the books.

Fair enough, I misremember it.

He just dreams with smashing her teeth in with his golden hand.

 

56 minutes ago, Dofs said:

So?

The day Ned feels like beating his wife bloody for cheating on him. I'll compare him with Jaime.

Till then it's like comparing Ned and Gregor.

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

17 hours ago, The Wolves said:

and robbed the Kings his heirs. 

No he didn’t. Jaime’s bastards being born DOES NOT stop the Robert’s children from being born. Cersei COULD have had both men’s children.

You can make guesses all you want about what Jaime MIGHT have done if Cersei had had Robert’s babies…but that is just your obviously biased opinion, not a fact. Again, Jaime didn’t make the choice. Cersei did. Jaime was not in the bedroom. Jaime was not tricking Cersei into taking moon tea. 

17 hours ago, The Wolves said:

And no Cersei wouldn’t have done it if Jaime disagreed. Cersei is to narcissistic and in love with Jaime to not have his children. 

Again, you are just guessing. Again, I disagree. And again, finally, we are talking about different things. I am talking about NOT having Robert’s children. You are talking about having Jaime’s children. If Cersei decided, I am going to have a baby by Robert, Jaime’s disagreement WOULD NOT MATTER at all. You know, we have a book, we have seen how Cersei acts when Jaime disagrees with something, and she absolutely 100% doesn’t give a flying fuck nor change her mind about the thing and especially not government policy she had decided on. Actually not true, she does care, as she says bad things about Jaime afterwords. If she didn’t care, she wouldn’t say anything I suppose. But she does not change whatever thing she is doing based on Jaime’s opinion. At all. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

16 hours ago, frenin said:

.So he did provide Cersei with the way to get rid of them but because he didn't make the initial decision... It's all good?

.Disagree, Cersei is too up in her own ass to have children that weren't Jaime's.

Besides that Jaime was with Cersei 24/7. He'd have found out and likely kill both Cersei and the loverboy in a fit of rage.

1. Yes, those things are not the same. Okay, I need a real life comparison here. Providing a resource is not the same as using said resource. Especially when that resource is not even illegal and Cersei was only using that resource to hide a different crime.  The best way to compare is I guess comparing the fact that any illegal crime where one person provides a resource and the other person uses the resource are charged completely differently. Accomplices are not charged the main assailant in criminal cases. I have never been claiming Jaime bares no responsibility, only that he is not EQUALLY responsible. 

2. Again, people. Not a lover. Robert. Robert’s children. We aren’t talking about a lover’s childen. We are talking about Robert’s children. If Cersei had decided ro have them, Jaime would have done absolutely nothing about it. He would have kept sleeping with Cersei and being in love with her and treated Robert’s childeen rhe same he treats his actual children. He literally, in his own PoV says as much. He says “they are Robert’s children, not mine..” or something of the sort since Cersei doesn’t let him hold the baby or something. Again, the reason for war was Cersei NOT having Robert’s children, NOT that she has a relationship with Jaime. The reason people discover shit is all because the blonde hair, etc. Even if people found and Jaime-Cersei were fucking, if the heir to throne had blue eyes and black hair, IT WOULDN’T matter that much. If Cersei is discovered to be a cheated post Robert’s death, but Joffrey is still Robert’s son, then there STILL isn’t a war! 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

1. Yes, those things are not the same. Okay, I need a real life comparison here. Providing a resource is not the same as using said resource. Especially when that resource is not even illegal and Cersei was only using that resource to hide a different crime.  The best way to compare is I guess comparing the fact that any illegal crime where one person provides a resource and the other person uses the resource are charged completely differently. Accomplices are not charged the main assailant in criminal cases. I have never been claiming Jaime bares no responsibility, only that he is not EQUALLY responsible. 

2. Again, people. Not a lover. Robert. Robert’s children. We aren’t talking about a lover’s childen. We are talking about Robert’s children. If Cersei had decided ro have them, Jaime would have done absolutely nothing about it. He would have kept sleeping with Cersei and being in love with her and treated Robert’s childeen rhe same he treats his actual children. He literally, in his own PoV says as much. He says “they are Robert’s children, not mine..” or something of the sort since Cersei doesn’t let him hold the baby or something. Again, the reason for war was Cersei NOT having Robert’s children, NOT that she has a relationship with Jaime. The reason people discover shit is all because the blonde hair, etc. Even if people found and Jaime-Cersei were fucking, if the heir to throne had blue eyes and black hair, IT WOULDN’T matter that much. If Cersei is discovered to be a cheated post Robert’s death, but Joffrey is still Robert’s son, then there STILL isn’t a war! 

I often wonder if Ned would have just let the blonde haired thing slide, if Joff was a good person. His evidence was pretty weak; I've constantly seen kids that have different hair colors than their parents. Part of me wonders if the whole hair thing, was him finally coming up with some sort of evidence, to prove the Lannisters were traitors and get rid o them; weak as it might be.

[frenin]

I don't want to derail this topic further, we've all speak our minds and this seems kinda pointless. 

Another unpopular opinion.

It makes little sense how uninvolved Westeros is with the rest of the world.

Robert and Jon Arryn for all their flaws managed to sniff most of the royalist sentiment in just 15 years of rule. That's certainly impressive. Had the twincest never been found out or had Cersei given Robert an heir, he would have inherited a quite stable realm and an unbeatable power block.

[SeanF]

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

I don't want to derail this topic further, we've all speak our minds and this seems kinda pointless. 

Another unpopular opinion.

It makes little sense how uninvolved Westeros is with the rest of the world.

Robert and Jon Arryn for all their flaws managed to sniff most of the royalist sentiment in just 15 years of rule. That's certainly impressive. Had the twincest never been found out or had Cersei given Robert an heir, he would have inherited a quite stable realm and an unbeatable power block.

Varys, LF, Doran, Tywin, Illyrio, were all working towards war.  All it needed was a spark (Jaime throwing Bran from the tower), to light the bonfire.

[frenin]

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Varys, LF, Doran, Tywin, Illyrio, were all working towards war.  All it needed was a spark (Jaime throwing Bran from the tower), to light the bonfire.

Why would Tywin work towards war? At the beginning of Agot he's won in life.

The others may very well be working towards war but without the twincest, there's very little that can break the rebel coalition and without that any such war becomes a moot point, Doran would quietly pull out.

Once the twincest was out, as in once a single person knew, they had their war.

Anyway, royalist sentiment is pretty snuffed out, you can see it here and there which but its pretty impressive how the rebels managed to sway a not very few amount of loyalists. Renly certainly played his part in getting the Reach to warm up to the new regime.

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why would Tywin work towards war? At the beginning of Agot he's won in life.

The others may very well be working towards war but without the twincest, there's very little that can break the rebel coalition and without that any such war becomes a moot point, Doran would quietly pull out.

Once the twincest was out, as in once a single person knew, they had their war.

Anyway, royalist sentiment is pretty snuffed out, you can see it here and there which but its pretty impressive how the rebels managed to sway a not very few amount of loyalists. Renly certainly played his part in getting the Reach to warm up to the new regime.

I don't think that Tywin could have put together an army of 35,000 men, in order to invade the Riverlands, without a great deal of preparation.  It might be better to say that Tywin was preparing for war, in case it should prove necessary.  He's shrewd enough to know what other lords think of the Lannisters, and he must be concerned about the Tyrells' frienship with Renly, and the risk of Cersei being set aside, in favour of Margaery.  

I'm not entirely sure how Cersei could be set aside, but no doubt, evidence of treason could be created by Varys, or she could just be quietly murdered.  It's the sort of thing Tywin himself would do.