[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[karaddin]

Another detail from this episode I liked - traveling is pretty much confirmed now (which I had assumed would be the case) with how Lanfear popped Mat across to Falme and was back in time to have her stroll, but she didn't tip her hand (and risk Moraine catching the weave) by offering that. She just continues with their plan to go via the ways and opens that gate even though she hates slow travel. So often we see dumb mistakes from villains in stories so it's worth recognizing when they're doing the opposite.

[Corvinus85]

10 hours ago, Gertrude said:

As for Rand not getting his moment of glory yet, I think they are saving it for the finale. That one Aes Sedai could hold a shield I can buy because he doesn't know what the fuck he is doing yet. I will agree though, that he needs something soon. If he doesn't pull some pretty cool shit out in Falme, I will be disappointed.

 

6 hours ago, karaddin said:

I have absolutely no issues with Siuan being able to shield Rand at this point, he still has very little idea what he's doing and none about trying to break a shield. Especially when its very likely all set up for him to have a big showing next episode.

Sure, he doesn't know much about channeling, but then we get the scene with cutting Ishy's knot that's on Moiraine. A minute ago no one there knew that knots were possible, and then he figures it out how to cut it. I think the shielding part has more to do with not really seeing much of a reaction from him. If these scenes were a book (no pun intended) I'm not sure how much of that would be his PoV. Maybe him having figured out how to cut a knot leads him to figuring out how to break through a shield.

1 hour ago, Maia said:

Yes, and Ishy is one of these people who get glimpses in the books, since he is a Dreamer.

I know he is very good in TAR but I guess I missed the part where he had the Dreamer talent.

[Poobah]

As far as I know it was a popular fan theory but was never confirmed anywhere to my knowledge. I had a look at my big lore book and it isn't mentioned in the entries for Ishamael or Moridin. 

Also it's worth noting that Dreaming and Dreamwalking are distinct, separate abilities. Dreaming definitely seems to be a capital T Talent (ie. a special inborn power) whereas Dreamwalking seems to be a bit more fluid in that while some people have a strong predilection towards it it does also appear to be a skill that can be learned to some extent. I would say that it's pretty clear that Ishamael is doing some serious Dreamwalking but the books don't, IMO, point towards him specifically having prophetic dreams as such, though various dark prophecies do exist. 

[Gertrude]

18 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Maybe him having figured out how to cut a knot leads him to figuring out how to break through a shield.

ooooh - maybe he will need that experience with cutting knots later. If tying off a weave is rediscovered bv the Tower (and why not, Forsaken are on the loose) then maybe LTT tells Rand how to feel for the knots of saidar and from there he knows how to break them. Maybe.

[SpaceChampion]

In the moment I was hoping Rand would shield Lanfear, having learned it from Ishy's weave, and leave her tied off for Siuan to take back to the White Tower for trial and execution (before the Black Ajah break her free, of course, but they'd need a male Forsaken or Taim to unshield her).

 

[karaddin]

22 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

 

Sure, he doesn't know much about channeling, but then we get the scene with cutting Ishy's knot that's on Moiraine. A minute ago no one there knew that knots were possible, and then he figures it out how to cut it. I think the shielding part has more to do with not really seeing much of a reaction from him. If these scenes were a book (no pun intended) I'm not sure how much of that would be his PoV. Maybe him having figured out how to cut a knot leads him to figuring out how to break through a shield.

Cutting a shield from outside of it is very different from inside one, especially when he can see the weaves for the one that isn't effecting him but he can't see the weaves for the one that shields him. Even when cutting the shield on Moraine he still hesitated several times - speed with weaves comes with practice and being able to anticipate a shield you can't see and cut those weaves is a level of mastery beyond merely getting the hang of the weaves - and he doesn't even have that yet. 

He will have explosive power when he needs it at this point but these weren't that - blowing up the Amyrlin would piss off all his allies (unless you're counting Lanfear lol) and REALLY get off to a bad start with the Aes Sedai. 

[karaddin]

7 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

In the moment I was hoping Rand would shield Lanfear, having learned it from Ishy's weave, and leave her tied off for Siuan to take back to the White Tower for trial and execution (before the Black Ajah break her free, of course, but they'd need a male Forsaken or Taim to unshield her).

I checked on the show only Reddit and Lanfear has a lot of fans lol, wouldn't have been popular with them!

[Gertrude]

OK, that Mat scene is sticking with me.

I see two likely scenarios here. Ishy lied - the tea just makes his mind susceptible to suggestion. Ishy knows Mat enough to be certain he would follow a dark path and see what he expects - lifetimes of shit. One step closer to turning.

ooooor ... Maybe it really is a tea that can break down the veil between lives. Maybe it's One Power tainted to help that along somehow. Anyway, if it is, the effect may linger. Maybe we get some Old Blood showing through next week. It could be unsettling enough for him to seek relief through a doorway (if they go that way,please please I hope they go that way).

Ingtar confirmed that Turak has a room of oddities where the Horn is kept. Why not a doorway?

And I'm still convinced that scene signals #JusticeForAbel

Edited September 29, 2023 by Gertrude

[fionwe1987]

6 hours ago, karaddin said:

Another point I really liked - Alanna abiding by the outcome of a vote amongst her and her warders, I think it's nicely establishing how deeply she respects that relationship so it will be clear when she bonds Rand its out of perceived necessity - not that she doesn't care about his feelings. They've really put the work into both sides of that landing.

Good point. They've definitely done the work to make her more sympathetic, here, which I approve of. 

I certainly hope we don't see Siuan die. Egwene's entire arc goes from fun and believable to utterly nonsensical if she doesn't have the former Amyrlin as her political advisor. 

16 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

It could be unsettling enough for him to seek relief through a doorway (if they go that way,please please I hope they go that way).

It would make for interesting TV. Main character drinks tea, gets unsettled, opens the doorway, and proceeds to relieve himself...

I'm personally of the opinion the tea was a lie, but weird teas with weird interactions with the Power aren't unheard of in the books, after all, so who knows. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by fionwe1987

[SpaceChampion]

28 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Ingtar confirmed that Turak has a room of oddities where the Horn is kept. Why not a doorway?

 

For sure.  They're not going to Tear next season.

Ingtar is probably the one to fight Turak, and sheathe the sword to get the win.

[Gertrude]

21 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

I certainly hope we don't see Siuan die. Egwene's entire arc goes from fun and believable to utterly nonsensical if she doesn't have the former Amyrlin as her political advisor. 

I think Leane could do that work if they don't plan to keep Siuan. They made a point of her telling Liandrin that, in essence, she was the Amyrlin seat while Siaun was away. What bothers me more is that if the supergirls don't get back to the Tower to take the Accepted test. The reason they raised Egwene was .... ok, I get it. I always found it a bit contrived, but I get it. Raising a novice? Muuuuuch thinner.

I don't want Siuan to die, obviously. But I don't think it will invalidate that arc if she does. It also makes her and Moiraine's parting even more heartbreaking if she dies in the coup.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Gertrude

[karaddin]

Yeah I really don't want Siuan to die and leave Moraine with this as the close of their relationship. And I don't think it's necessary, I understand the concerns about actress availability but that's not iron clad.

[David Selig]

This episode was really impressive visually, the show has made massive strides in this area since last season. Lanfear blowing everything up was a spectacular sequence. But the writing had so many issues. Moiraine and Lan defying the Amyrlin to join Lanfear had me facepalming. Siuan's plan for Rand was pretty flawed, but when the other option was literally doing exactly what ishamael and Lanfear wanted of him at this point, Moiraine and Lan going along with it made no sense to me. And Lan figuring out that moiraine has been shielded, not stilled, felt extremely contrived.

[Corvinus85]

14 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

The scene where Renna tries to sweet talk Egwene started off well, but the ending was abrupt, and Renna's tame reaction didn't seem to fit. 

Agreed. At least twice now we hear Renna say she allowed Egwene to keep her name. This should have triggered the your name is Tuli moment. 

12 hours ago, Gertrude said:

As for Siuan's downfall - Siuan, Leane, Logain and Min are ALL in Cairhien right now. Does that mean that we're getting a coup earlier rather than later? That would give the girls a reason for not returning to the Tower and for Nyneave not to return her pocketful of rings. Honestly though, I'm not sure how I feel about her and Moirain'es parting. The montage tugged at my heart strings, but I didn't like the showdown and Moiraine didn't even try to argue her case. Does Siuan think Moiraine is a darkfriend now? She failed her mission, she 'lied' to Siuan and she left with Lanfear.

But the most important character for the coup isn't - Elaida. I don't want Liandrin leading the coup, because that's just a DF doing DF things. Elaida needs to do it. Moiraine does say Siuan has many enemies in the Tower, so the seed has been planted. It doesn't need to happen next episode. And I really don't think there is time for this with how much stuff needs to happen at Falme. Most likely Siuan will take Logain back to the Tower. (since that was all Moiraine's doing with Cairhien)

11 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yes, I liked this too! I'm glad Annvaere had principles, here. I think if they merge her into Colavaere now, she'd make for a much much more interesting character. Kinda like her Servilia in Rome, in fact, with Rand being the obvious Caesar parallel. If that's what they do, I'd say bravo. That has a very legends fading to myth only to repeat feel to it.

If her fortunes turn bad now that Barthanes was revealed as DF I can see her play Colavaere's role. Otherwise, she should play Caraline's role.

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

OK, that Mat scene is sticking with me.

I see two likely scenarios here. Ishy lied - the tea just makes his mind susceptible to suggestion. Ishy knows Mat enough to be certain he would follow a dark path and see what he expects - lifetimes of shit. One step closer to turning.

ooooor ... Maybe it really is a tea that can break down the veil between lives. Maybe it's One Power tainted to help that along somehow. Anyway, if it is, the effect may linger. Maybe we get some Old Blood showing through next week. It could be unsettling enough for him to seek relief through a doorway (if they go that way,please please I hope they go that way).

Ingtar confirmed that Turak has a room of oddities where the Horn is kept. Why not a doorway?

And I'm still convinced that scene signals #JusticeForAbel

Ishy is leading Mat towards fulfilling Min's vision, though I don't think Ishy knows the vision content specifically, but maybe he knows that this is a path Mat can take. So the wound Rand receives at Falme could be this instead of WoT giving us a rendition of Geralt vs. Vilgefortz  (well the fight in the sky will still happen just not necessarily per the book)

A red doorway at Falme is certainly possible, and I do hope the Old Blood stuff happens. Wasn't Mat the first one to start singing the Manetheren song last season? 

40 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

For sure.  They're not going to Tear next season.

Ingtar is probably the one to fight Turak, and sheathe the sword to get the win.

Why aren't they going to Tear next season? Has this been confirmed?

I'm disappointed that the show didn't do more with Ingtar. It will be from left field if he's revealed as a DF. Considering that they did a good job with showing various DF motivations for turning to the dark, Ingtar got left behind on this matter. So if he dies as per the book it will be a bit of a waste.

...

Funny that no one has yet mentioned Perrin. His brief scene wasn't much, again. His storyline has felt like a boulder dragging the show down, which is really disappointing. But I hope something gets setup for him in the finale. As I mentioned, a lot needs to happen in the finale:

- Rand vs Ishy and declaring himself DR + more stuff with Lanfear

- A fight with the Seanchan that leads to Turak's death

- Mat's role and hopefully the blowing of the Horn of Valere

- Egwene's rescue

- Perrin and the Aiel doing something; possibly Hopper's death.

- Bornhald's doomed charge on Falme, which should lead to Dain starting on his hate path towards Perrin

- And Fain?

 

[karaddin]

I think the idea is that the Stone of Tear and Callandor are left for later in the story - that Rand doesn't really do much with it for several books after getting it, so it can be pushed back until it's actually needed and the world needs to accept him rather than almost repeating what happens in season 2.

[Poobah]

Episode was mostly very good.

I'm a not fan of the conflict between Siuan and Moiraine though and what they're doing with Siuan's character and motivations in general. Leane too is extremely different from the woman who became one of my favourite tertiary characters in the middle books, and while we don't see much of her pre-stilling in the books it'd be a hell of an arc for her to go through and I fear that after the character assassination of these two will come an actual assassination next season because, frankly, I'm not sure there's room for their arcs in an 8 episode a season show and they've been made rather unsympathetic to boot.  

I'm glad they solved the shielding of Moiraine and I think it was done ok but it felt quite rushed and I feel like they could have put in a bit more establishing stuff for it in previous episodes rather than some of the fluff. I get that Lan not being suicidal is part of that and they imply here that he's been doing a lot of thinking about this stuff but I feel like showing him actually doing some of that and joining the dots on screen in previous episodes would have been good because as I said cramming it all into the one episode makes it seem rushed in my opinion.

The CGI for the weaves has definitely improved significantly, and is becoming a great visual spectacle much more how I imagined it to be. I enjoyed seeing Lanfear blow up the foregate and then Siuan and the various AS in her retinue bring rain to douse the flames.

The show is still being heavily carried by the villains:

12 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I actually love Ishy in the show. He really gives off the vibes of someone who believes what they are doing is the right thing and his gentleness is unnerving.

100% this. Fares Fares is doing an incredible job as Ishamael and whatever else I think of the decisions made in this adaption what they've done with Ishamael is superb. This is the Ishamael that Jordan wishes he'd written in to Eye of the World when he hadn't really gotten all his lore sorted rather than the cardboard cut-out devil figure - this is the beloved philosopher he describes in the world book whose declaration of the Dark One on the world stage brought chaos and despair, the man who unlike the other petty and selfish Forsaken chose the Dark because he truly believes in the destruction of the wheel for the greater good, a man who I actually believe could convert people and who people would want to follow. His presence is fantastic. I'm also enjoying their version of Lanfear a lot too.

Elayne and Nynaeve's scenes were fairly short but worked well, and I'm glad they're taking initiative and getting shit done all on their own, it's also good that we're going to get the revelation about the sul'dam sorted too. I enjoyed the scene where Bain and Chiad beat Aviendha, it's a nice window into Aiel culture, but otherwise Perrin was just... there I guess and continues to be the weakest link in the show by far. I also wish they'd managed to find some bigger dogs or CGI'd these ones bigger because Hopper seems comically small. Also what was up with that really dark scene where they approach Falme?

[Corvinus85]

22 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Elayne and Nynaeve's scenes were fairly short but worked well, and I'm glad they're taking initiative and getting shit done all on their own, it's also good that we're going to get the revelation about the sul'dam sorted too. I enjoyed the scene where Bain and Chiad beat Aviendha, it's a nice window into Aiel culture, but otherwise Perrin was just... there I guess and continues to be the weakest link in the show by far. I also wish they'd managed to find some bigger dogs or CGI'd these ones bigger because Hopper seems comically small. Also what was up with that really dark scene where they approach Falme?

If you watch with subtitles it tells you what Aviendha signals to the other Maidens: they're shocked by the amount of water, as they can see the ocean.

[fionwe1987]

59 minutes ago, David Selig said:

This episode was really impressive visually, the show has made massive strides in this area since last season. Lanfear blowing everything up was a spectacular sequence.

Agree. Her utter nonchalance as she created a wave of destruction around her..  it was very well done. 

59 minutes ago, David Selig said:

But the writing had so many issues. Moiraine and Lan defying the Amyrlin to join Lanfear had me facepalming. Siuan's plan for Rand was pretty flawed, but when the other option was literally doing exactly what ishamael and Lanfear wanted of him at this point, Moiraine and Lan going along with it made no sense to me. And Lan figuring out that moiraine has been shielded, not stilled, felt extremely contrived.

Yeah I really don't think they did this well. In the books, Siuan does want some measure of control over Rand, because she's keenly aware he's a political nuke for her. But she's not dumb enough to prioritize that to the extent that she thinks Rand should be chained and kept from channeling, because she knows all the Prophesies, and there's no way for a chained channeler to fulfill any of them.

I suspect that's where she'll land next season, but it's going to look silly after all this. Or they can completely muck up her character. 

As for Rand and Moiraine... collaboration with Lanfear to a certain extent is in the books, too, where Moiraine is aware Lanfear visits Rand, and she and Egwene share worry about what is going on.

But straight up collaboration, which comes in the form of Lanfear killing at least hundreds of people and destroying the lives of many more? And Rand just straight up asks for it? That just comes across thoroughly wrong. 

I'd be on Siuan's side here, in so far as looking at all this with deep skepticism that the people involved know what the fuck they're doing, even though it's presented as wrong. 

33 minutes ago, Poobah said:

 I'm not sure there's room for their arcs in an 8 episode a season show and they've been made rather unsympathetic to boot.  

That'd be sad. Leane, I can see them tossing (I like her arc in the books, too), but Siuan? That'd be a big loss to the story. Even though I find her whole Gareth Bryne thing grating, the rest of her arc as she learns the advantages of operating from a lack of power, and the friendship she and Egwene develop, are the highlights of the later series for me. All the spectacular was Rand mucks up because he's unable to communicate and trust, the exact opposite happens in Egwene's camp, and a big part of that is the relationship that develops between Siuan and Egwene. 

33 minutes ago, Poobah said:

100% this. Fares Fares is doing an incredible job as Ishamael and whatever else I think of the decisions made in this adaption what they've done with Ishamael is superb. This is the Ishamael that Jordan wishes he'd written in to Eye of the World when he hadn't really gotten all his lore sorted rather than the cardboard cut-out devil figure - this is the beloved philosopher he describes in the world book whose declaration of the Dark One on the world stage brought chaos and despair, the man who unlike the other petty and selfish Forsaken chose the Dark because he truly believes in the destruction of the wheel for the greater good, a man who I actually believe could convert people and who people would want to follow. His presence is fantastic. I'm also enjoying their version of Lanfear a lot too.

100% this. The adaptation will already be a success, in so far as giving us very competent if pathological villains. That's what the Forsaken are, at their best, in the books, but that best is rare. The show has taken where RJ tried to go with them and woven that in early, to tremendous success. 

And Fares Fares sells Ishy's views on this very well. Just end all the suffering... I can see that being a genuine motivator, especially if you're aware how many times you've been born to fight this fight.

But to take that and insist the world must not only see things this way, but submit to your plan for it... that's where it gets evil, but it's chilling and complicated, rather than buffoonish and confused. I like. 

33 minutes ago, Poobah said:

Perrin

Ugh yeah, how did he have a more boring arc than Mat, despite not having the actor disruptions?

Perrin is quiet and deliberate, in the books, but his portrayal here just seems vacant and hapless. It doesn't help that he's supposed to have a dead wife, which he emotes about way less than Anvaere emotes about being pissed off at her sister. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Poobah]

9 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

If you watch with subtitles it tells you what Aviendha signals to the other Maidens: they're shocked by the amount of water, as they can see the ocean.

Yeah I saw that. I was questioning why it was so dark and generally how.. off? it felt. It was like someone turned the brightness on my screen down to 0 for that scene. It didn't feel like it was night... was it supposed to be? In general something just felt very off about it, my best guess is maybe they decided they needed an establishing shot for Perrin and co arriving at Falme and quickly threw that together on a soundstage somewhere or something.

[David Selig]

I'd have loved to have seen more of Elayne and Nynaeve, they have great chemistry together. Figuring out how to use the a'dam, for example. What we got was good, but too brief.

Perrin's stuff was again boring. Also, Aviendha getting beat up for defending herself in a fight made no sense to me.