Characters' Worst Decisions

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

He broke his word, I agree. And, he offered recompense, which offer the Freys accepted.

The Freys were faithless vassals twice over, to Edmure, who was their overlord, and to Robb, who was their king.  And, they certainly can’t claim that Edmure wronged them in any way.

Yes. Walder is a backstabbing scumbag, but that's besides the point. What I'm saying is that Robb definitely swore an oath and he broke it.

[sweetsunray]

Ned: Becoming Hand to uncover a murder plot based on a claim by a woman he believes to be grief stricken after the death of her husband. His own initial intuition is right on the money: stay North. But then he listens to the bad counsel of Luwin and Cat - go be Hand and take everyone with you, but Robb, to play at Hercule Poirot. So, imo his biggest mistake is taking the job of Hand without beginning to consider what it truly entails until the end.

Catelyn: Trusting Lysa and LF, or going back home overland. Yeah, she probably would have ended up being stalled at Dragonstone by Stannis, but at least she would have learned the truth about Jon Arryn's intentions, etc.

Tyrion: Not executing Littlefinger

Cersei: She's a horrible person all her life basically, and governed by her impulses, wants and desires. Pretty much any decision she ever made is by default the worst she can make in any situation, starting with kicking a cranky old woman awake to tell her fortune. But well it's her personality, and she barely has decision power over her own personality. Overall her mistakes revolve around her tendency to make enemies out of her allies: Tyrion in aCoK, the Tyrells in aFfC, and ignoring very real enemies for symbolic victories (Dragonstone and SE over protecting the Reach). But here's my choice for her - making the Iron Bank into an enemy to build a war fleet that has been and will be used to put Aegon VI on the throne.

Jaime: I agree that joining the KG is one of his worst mistakes, for a similar reason than Ned. He joined the KG for the wrong reason - to fuck his sister. It's not the job description.

Sansa: Blaming her sister for Joffrey's horrible behavior and somehow forgiving Cersei's demand to see a wolf killed.

Arya: Not requesting Jaqen to kill Tywin

Robb: not negotiating a more realistic deal with Tywin that brings peace to the Riverlands and go back North. Robb's best position was always going to be capturing Jaime and breaking the siege on Riverrun. Anything after that would just be "unsound variations" that would never lead to a checkmate.

Jon: Sending Sam, Aemon and Mance's son away. It was done with the best intentions, but I don't think Mel had any intention of burning the latter two. And he needed Sam and Aemon as counseling weight against Bowen Marsh and other shortshighted men.

Tywin: taking Cersei to court and keeping her at court when it was obvous that Aerys was never going to wed her to any of his sons. He lost the most important desire of his because of this: his heir.

Petyr: believing that Sansa will grow up and into power without turning on him

Daenerys: trusting the dream dragon, and not fully having found a balance between being a dragon who cares. When she gives in to her dragon desire to acquire the IT, innocents must pay the price, whom she then cares about and tries to rectify it, but the damage is done regardless. MMD's village and Astapor are the result of this.

Theon: Staying at WF and trusting Reek.

Doran: sometimes revenge is such a cold dish, the food has gone bad

JonCon: Diving after Tyrion to save him?

Stannis: Sitting on the incest revelation for as long as he did

Roose: believing that he could ever control Ramsay

Walder: The Red Wedding

Barristan: Never being more engaged into the small council and KG making decisions while he was LC. The KG being who they are at the start of aGoT is partially on him. He had a power there that he did not use. Only when Ned Stark opposes Robert's plan to have Dany assassinated does he find the spine to speak up.

Victarion: telling everything to the Dusky woman

Aeron: thinking Balon is a great king

Mace Tyrell: wanting his daughter to be queen

Kevan: can't fault him for his conditions to Cersei if he's supposed to stay, after what he knows she did to his son and with Jaime. But I do fault him with persisting in gifting castles all over the realm to Lannisters. It's not just greedy, but just not smart as it spreads the forces thin. Yes, a lord of Darry, Riverrun or Rosby can levy forces from those lands, but not when those lands are obviously still in rebellion. Then it requires your own forces to occupy the areas and leaves you dependent of Tyrell forces. As a result there are forces and knights at Darry, despite his son Lancel haven given up the place and marriage, lots of forces embroiled around Riverrun (still). Kevan barely has any man of significance in KL left, and yet he still persists in Cersei's stupid decision to try and claim Rosby for the crown. 

Sandor: killing Mycah. He despises his brother for the senseless murderous brute he is, but in that moment was no better than his brother. I get him capturing the boy, and Cersei might still have gotten him killed, but there was no need butcher him. And going as low as his brother with that act torments him still.

Edited October 1, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

13 hours ago, SeanF said:

He broke his word, I agree. And, he offered recompense, which offer the Freys accepted.

The Freys were faithless vassals twice over, to Edmure, who was their overlord, and to Robb, who was their king.  And, they certainly can’t claim that Edmure wronged them in any way.

Robb's mistake was surely not of breaking his vow, it was to trust Walder and most of his family, and Roose Bolton in the first place. 

Trusting a backstabber to watch your back will always result in him/her knifing you instead.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9

[Moiraine Sedai]

1.  Cat, releasing the kingslayer. Made Robb look weaker than he already was. 

2.  Dany, going easy on the Meerenese masters. Sending most adults of Meereen’s slave-owning families to the chopping blocks would have ensured the end of the harpy. 
 

3.  Barristan, serving a non-Targaryen monarch was a disgrace to his Order.  Serving alongside Jaime was also a dishonor. 
 

4.  Jon, allowing his feelings for Arya to lead him to break the rules and commit vile treason at the Wall. It was treason to send the wildlings on that foolish adventure to take Arya. This is the unforgivable sin which will bring the deaths of many. 
 

5.  Arya, becoming one of the faceless and killing Dareon. 
 

6.  Bowen, nothing. He is serving and protecting Westeros. 
 

7.  Robb, betraying the Freys.

8.  Tyrion, killing Tywin. Good for the story but it is an unforgivable sin. 
 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Moiraine Sedai

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Barristan, serving a non-Targaryen monarch was a disgrace to his Order.

Serving Aerys was a disgrace to his order.

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

6.  Bowen, nothing. He is serving and protecting Westeros. 

Very funny joke.

[Odej]

Why in seven hells didn't Aegon or Viserys marry Daeron and Daena? The two were very close, Daeron was the heir, Daena was the eldest daughter, everything fits. Viserys had married Aegon and Naerys, even though the two hate eachother and at time were low in the sucession line, simply because that was the family tradition.

It makes no sense and it makes even less that Daena had married Baelor while Daeron was still alive. I remember that in a old interview, when asked about Daeron's sexuality, Martin had said Daeron was married. Well, he obviosly changed his mind about it since Daeron died single.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Odej

[Groo]

On 10/1/2023 at 1:31 AM, sweetsunray said:

Doran: sometimes revenge is such a cold dish, the food has gone bad

That is an amazing line. Is it yours? Can I borrow it?

[Groo]

4 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

1.  Cat, releasing the kingslayer. Made Robb look weaker than he already was. 

You've got me thinking now. I always thought arresting Tyrion was supremely boneheaded, but in fairness to Cat, it was a sudden unexpected encounter and she had been led to believe that Tyrion was behind the assassination attempt. Releasing Jaime, on the other hand, is nothing but raw desperation. She had plenty of time to think on it. It's not a good plan. It has plenty of downside and she went ahead and did it anyways. 

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, Groo said:

You've got me thinking now. I always thought arresting Tyrion was supremely boneheaded, but in fairness to Cat, it was a sudden unexpected encounter and she had been led to believe that Tyrion was behind the assassination attempt. Releasing Jaime, on the other hand, is nothing but raw desperation. She had plenty of time to think on it. It's not a good plan. It has plenty of downside and she went ahead and did it anyways. 

 

 

 

Tyrion's arrest seems stupid in retrospect, but it wasn't stupid based on the information Cat knew once Tyrion recognized her. Cat couldn't really anticipate that both LF (risking his job to start a war) and Lysa (betraying her family) are playing her false.

Jaime's release was indeed foolish, mostly because it was her rogue action - so it looks like an escape attempt - and because she put too much trust in Tyrion, who has just tried to break Jaime out of prison with disguised members of the 'peace delegation' he sent.

A hostage exchange between Jaime and the Stark girls would have been actually reasonable after the deaths of Bran and Rickon.

Edited October 2, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:56 AM, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Theon: not seeing his mother when he had the chance  And like someone above said, remaining in WF 

I don't think this is Theon's biggest mistake, but it is a random and sucky thing. Like, Asha all but lays out that his mother really wants to see him...and he just doesn't. He could have stopped by. But....I think I get it. Theon feels abandoned. Not really on his mother. It wasn't her fault, like at all basically...but...he was 10. I think there would be complicated feelings there and Westeros doesn't have therapists sadly. I know I have found that...I feel some resentment toward my mother....because my father abused me. She honestly did her best, I know that. My logical brain 100% knows that. And yet...my emotional brain still struggles with it. Being abandoned as a 10 year old has to f*** someone up, and I think Theon's chapters in ADwD and later in ACoK basically confirm that. He wasn't ready to deal with it. I guess I hope Theon could see his mother again now that he has solved some of that. I wrote too much, I apologize. TLDR - Theon not visiting his mother sucked, but wasn't his biggest mistake. 

[csuszka1948]

22 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Very funny joke.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shouldn't he have killed Jon earlier, before he allowed a horde of barbarian wildlings inside Castle Black? Shouldn't he have checked whether Mance Rayder is really dead? Shouldn't he have stopped Ser Piggy from rigging the vote? Bowen Marsh is one of the best men to ever grace the land, but he lacked the vigilance of Ser Alliser. 

Spoiler

I would have thought that a Jon hater would list these amongst the worst decisions of Bowen Marsh and mention his lack of vigilance as a flaw of his.

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Groo]

On 10/1/2023 at 1:31 AM, sweetsunray said:

Jon: Sending Sam, Aemon and Mance's son away. It was done with the best intentions, but I don't think Mel had any intention of burning the latter two. And he needed Sam and Aemon as counseling weight against Bowen Marsh and other shortshighted men.

Isolating himself was a real problem but the mistake wasn't Sam and Aemon. The Night's Watch needed more maesters. Sam was obviously an excellent choice, and the hope was Aemon could influence the Citadel to send more. No, the problem was sending away Grenn, Pyp, and Edd. He got rid of loyal reliable men just to appear to not be playing favorites.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Groo said:

Isolating himself was a real problem but the mistake wasn't Sam and Aemon. The Night's Watch needed more maesters. Sam was obviously an excellent choice, and the hope was Aemon could influence the Citadel to send more. No, the problem was sending away Grenn, Pyp, and Edd. He got rid of loyal reliable men just to appear to not be playing favorites.

I think we disagree on that. He did need men he trusted in other castles. And Pyp did afford himself liberties in talking dissent, just because Jon wasn't a fellow NW-man anymore but LC. So, he wasn't much help at CB.

Jon needed someone on the counsel to have some weight against Bowen Marsh' thickness. Aemon could have been a voice of reason that Bowen Marsh would have to respect. And Sam knows how to be a go between and smoothen things out. Though I do think it was smart of Jon to pick his future maester himself, rather than depend on whomever else the Citadel would send. The issue of course is that the NW just doesn't have many good people left amongst the officers.

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by sweetsunray

[sifth]

22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I think we disagree on that. He did need men he trusted in other castles. And Pyp did afford himself liberties in talking dissent, just because Jon wasn't a fellow NW-man anymore but LC. So, he wasn't much help at CB.

Jon needed someone on the counsel to have some weight against Bowen Marsh' thickness. Aemon could have been a voice of reason that Bowen Marsh would have to respect. And Sam knows how to be a go between and smoothen things out. Though I do think it was smart of Jon to pick his future maester himself, rather than depend on whomever else the Citadel would send. The issue of course is that the NW just doesn't have many good people left amongst the officers.

 

It was also a mistake to let Marsh keep his post. The guy is a supporter of Janos Slynt and therefore cannot be trusted.

[Gravity Grave]

Tyrion defying Tywin’s demand that he didn’t take Shae to court. Tywin was entrusting Tyrion with a job which carries more responsibility than any other in the Kingdom. Tyrion, who never felt like his father respected him or gave him his dues, was given the chance to prove himself as a successor to his father. It’s a responsibility far higher than Tyrion has previously had, and yet he was willing to jeopardise it by taking a whore he’d only recently met, to court against Tywin’s command.

[Lee-Sensei]

14 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I don't think this is Theon's biggest mistake, but it is a random and sucky thing. Like, Asha all but lays out that his mother really wants to see him...and he just doesn't. He could have stopped by. But....I think I get it. Theon feels abandoned. Not really on his mother. It wasn't her fault, like at all basically...but...he was 10. I think there would be complicated feelings there and Westeros doesn't have therapists sadly. I know I have found that...I feel some resentment toward my mother....because my father abused me. She honestly did her best, I know that. My logical brain 100% knows that. And yet...my emotional brain still struggles with it. Being abandoned as a 10 year old has to f*** someone up, and I think Theon's chapters in ADwD and later in ACoK basically confirm that. He wasn't ready to deal with it. I guess I hope Theon could see his mother again now that he has solved some of that. I wrote too much, I apologize. TLDR - Theon not visiting his mother sucked, but wasn't his biggest mistake. 

He does ask about his ask about his mother when he arrives, but seems to set that aside when he realizes that his inheritance was at stake. I'd like to think that if he could do it over again, he'd make a better choice. I agree that it wasn't his biggest mistake though.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

7 hours ago, Gravity Grave said:

Tyrion defying Tywin’s demand that he didn’t take Shae to court. Tywin was entrusting Tyrion with a job which carries more responsibility than any other in the Kingdom. Tyrion, who never felt like his father respected him or gave him his dues, was given the chance to prove himself as a successor to his father. It’s a responsibility far higher than Tyrion has previously had, and yet he was willing to jeopardise it by taking a whore he’d only recently met, to court against Tywin’s command.

Yep. I actually agree with this. Later to, he gets offered the Master of Coin and acts petulent about it. Like, a seat on the small council, and Tyrion is acting like it is somehow bad to get one of the most important positions in the realm. 

[Groo]

On 9/25/2023 at 9:57 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Sansa: Divulging Ned's plans to Cersei

I would say not leaving with Sandor on the night of the battle. She alerted Cersei but I don't think things would have gone all that differently even if she hadn't. The whole gold cloaks betrayal was Littlefinger's doing and if he had sided with Ned it would have been Cersei who ended up in a cell. Ned was also perfectly willing to warn Cersei himself anyways. Ned even had time to get Arya and Sansa away but he let Littlefinger delay him.

On the other hand, image how differently things would have been for Sansa if she left with Sandor. No marriage to Tyrion. No threats from Lysa. No Littlefinger.

It was also more of a true decision. She knew what Sandor was offering. She had a basic understanding of the situation and the risks involved. With Cersei, Sansa didn't really understand all that was going on.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

7 minutes ago, Groo said:

I would say not leaving with Sandor on the night of the battle.

I'm not sure I agree here. I think it was easier for Sandor to travel with the smaller Arya than with the older and bigger Sansa.

Sansa might not have survived an encounter like the one at the Inn at the Crossroads.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Alester Florent]

10 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yep. I actually agree with this. Later to, he gets offered the Master of Coin and acts petulent about it. Like, a seat on the small council, and Tyrion is acting like it is somehow bad to get one of the most important positions in the realm. 

It's a funny one. He obviously can't keep his position as Hand once Tywin arrives, so in some ways he's fortunate to be named to the small council at all. However I think he recognises that Master of Coin at this point is something of a hospital pass: the crown's finances are shot to hell and it's only LF's financial wizardry that's been keeping it afloat at all. And it's a job where you don't make many friends. Even if he is actually the best man for the job, it's the kind of job where you can really only fail. 

And of course he's being given this important but undesirable job instead of the one he actually wants and thinks he deserves: acting lord of Casterly Rock.