Wouter Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 5 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said: Swordplay was more of a sport for them, but they were very good at it. It was re-discovered in the period of the long decline when society started to break down long before the breakout of the war so they had time to hone their skills. When Rand fights Be'lal in the Stone, Rand can barely hold him off, and Be'lal wants Rand to grab Callandor for him so he's not trying to kill him. I understand, but for Lan it is not a sport but his main way of doing battle. He will be more experienced than Demandred is, even if Demandred was a great sport fencer or something like that. Lan actually has killed a lot in battle with a sword, and nearly died quite a bit by the swords of his opponents. It doesn't make much sense that powerful channelers in the AOL would ever have needed to really kill with it, in battle they had much better options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 14 minutes ago, IFR said: Again, assuming that you are being sincere, I would like to point out (respectfully) that this would be considered a derailment of the thread. I am more than happy to engage in this exercise with you. I actually think it would be fun. But carrying this out would be just a sideshow spectacle. I honestly don't see why this can't be done via PM. It's not necessary to have an audience to check how well we've understood each other, unless a spectacle is what you're after. At any rate, if you want to pursue this conversation further, then PM me. I will gladly respond. This kind of dishonesty is why I know your opinion is not worth engaging with. Arakasi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFR Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said: This kind of dishonesty is why I know your opinion is not worth engaging with. All right. You win the debate! You called my bluff. You have an endlessly enriched perspective of WoT, your every thought is a diamond in the rough of conversation, and my poor ignorant contributions, a lone hill overshadowed by the looming Everest of your profound insights, only contaminates the luster you bring to this thread. You have an impeccable understanding of my thoughts on the show, whereas I can never hope to even begin to grasp the rarefied realms of your infinite WoT erudition. Well done. I am bested. I hope you'll permit me a little bit of teasing. I really do enjoy your comments, regardless of what you think of mine. But if you wish to end this particular discussion here, then you have my agreement. Edited October 16, 2023 by IFR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakasi Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) @Wouter I don’t think it’s that complicated and was laid out fairly well in the episode. Like he said to Lanfear Rand and co aren’t ready. He needed more time to get Rand to turn to the dark by having him go dark to save his friends. He wanted a lot more time to work on breaking Mat and Egwene down. So he breaks the other forsaken free probably feeling at worst they’ll kill Rand and start the cycle again. And maybe they’ll break him to the dark along the way. Regardless killing Rand right there doesn’t do much other than pressing reset. And considering in all the turnings the dragon hasn’t defeated the dark one for good he probably isn’t worried much there. Edit: that’s even if he cares that Rand wins. If he’s a nihilist and just wants this to end then killing Rand is the last thing he wants to do. If Rand wins and breaks the cycle he might welcome that. Edited October 16, 2023 by Arakasi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 1 hour ago, Wouter said: It's not clear to me what happened. Did Ishy really die, or was it an illusion (or did he die, but will the DO resurrect him in the same body and he knows that, which would come down to the same thing - Fares Fares remains in the show)? Was he, to some extent, working with Lanfear's plan - she would help Rand kill Ishy and she said so openly. Did Ishamael willingly play along, is there a good cop/bad cop routine going on and he is giving Lanfear a shot at turning him? But then, why release the other Forsaken? I guess this would still be explainable by him not trusting Lanfear in any case, wanting to keep her in check and to keep Rand and co on their toes. Another interpretation is that he had planned to drive Rand to despair by having his friends one by one be defeated or turned to the shadow, but if so he wasn't very far along and his chances to realise this were always slim. In that case, he would have decided to give up when things went south along that front, but still, why the entire setup with the convoluted gentling by remote damane? What was his plan with Mat, did he actually plan for what happened (but even Min's view didn't quite predict that)? I think the big one that needed more time was Egwene. If she's already a broken damane by the time Rand gets there he's going to need to kill her in self defense which is going to have a huge impact on him. There would have been a slow chipping away at all of them though. It's all building on the cold open in the finale - LTT shares the pain and regret that Ishy feels about the cycle of souls and endlessly fighting each other. Ishy knows this from what LTT says to him about not wanting to do this again, and he's trying to grab onto that. The part he's missing is the the difference between them - that while they both regret it, the Dragon doesn't get broken by it. I thought it was an illusion at first, it's sandwiched between his own illusion of himself and the dragon banner, and he specifically comments about the simplicity of the first illusion. I've changed my mind now though, his "I'll try again in the next life" is about his own next life and his death being an illusion doesn't jive with that. His peace as he died also seemed sincere. So I think a basic illusion with the power in general is what he's calling a "simple" illusion, legitimately dying in full knowledge he'll be brought back in short order but with Rand having the full impact of thinking he'd killed him is the best fit for everything we saw imo. That's a much more sophisticated illusion. I'm assuming the show will hand wave it in some way to continue using Fares Fares in the role because I think continuity makes sense in the visual medium, but mostly just because he was fantastic in the role. Wouter and Arakasi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 Yeah, I think he's dead, but he saw "nothing" in the end, which was meant to telegraph that he was going into the cold embrace of the Dark One. Then his body just disintegrates, which is surely a bizarre end to a stab wound. I'm also hopeful that they retain Fares Fares for when he is resurrected. Changing the rules here make perfect sense, given the shift to the visual medium. Arakasi and Which Tyler 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlyaP Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 9 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said: I'm also hopeful that they retain Fares Fares for when he is resurrected. Changing the rules here make perfect sense, given the shift to the visual medium. A haircut and a shave and he'll be a new man! Literally! Which Tyler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 20 minutes ago, IlyaP said: A haircut and a shave and he'll be a new man! Literally! Fares Fur-less? karaddin, IlyaP and Arakasi 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlyaP Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 1 minute ago, fionwe1987 said: Fares Fur-less? Personally, as a member of the facial fur club, I hope not, 'cause I think beards rule, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 17 minutes ago, IlyaP said: Personally, as a member of the facial fur club, I hope not, 'cause I think beards rule, but... As am I and as do I, but we've been told the Dark One has a twisted sense of humor... IlyaP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 42 minutes ago, IlyaP said: A haircut and a shave and he'll be a new man! Literally! 2 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said: As am I and as do I, but we've been told the Dark One has a twisted sense of humor... How about make him blonde. fionwe1987 and IlyaP 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 2 hours ago, Wouter said: I understand, but for Lan it is not a sport but his main way of doing battle. He will be more experienced than Demandred is, even if Demandred was a great sport fencer or something like that. Lan actually has killed a lot in battle with a sword, and nearly died quite a bit by the swords of his opponents. It doesn't make much sense that powerful channelers in the AOL would ever have needed to really kill with it, in battle they had much better options. I mean it's in the final book. Demandred is the more skilled swordsman, which means knowing the forms to perfection. Lan is more determined and willing to injure himself to the point of death to defeat a foe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Hard to picture Taimandred stupidly fighting people with swords though, so I wonder what the original plan would have looked like. I will die in the Taimandred hill. Much like both Taim and Demandred died on a hill. Wouter, Corvinus85, Arakasi and 2 others 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 7 minutes ago, karaddin said: Hard to picture Taimandred stupidly fighting people with swords though, so I wonder what the original plan would have looked like. I will die in the Taimandred hill. Much like both Taim and Demandred died on a hill. Egwene turns him into crystal and then Lan smashes him into pieces. Job done. fionwe1987 and karaddin 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlyaP Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 25 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said: How about make him blonde. Is that...legal? To make him....legally....blond? *ducks* Corvinus85 and Myrddin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gertrude Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Someone please remind me - what is Morindin's importance to the plot? Is it important to keep him for the show? Morindin is where we get the philosophy Ishy was serving us, right? My knowledg eof the back half of the books is much more foggy than the beginning, but what exactly does he do that another Forsaken couldn't? (and let's forget about the very end of the series for a second.) I hate losing Fares Fares, but we need the Forsaken to die, right? And I think the transmigration thing is probably not a thing they want to do on tv, right? I'm coming around to accepting that we will only ever get 2 seasons of Fares Fares portraying a glorious Ishy, and I'm sad about that. But also, I think it's kind of a good sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakasi Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) He’s the leader of the forsaken. He pulls the strings and fights Rand at the end. So no random forsaken baddie really can’t take that other than maybe Demandred. Obviously they’re not going to do the Rand body transformation but he’s the only forsaken with that much gravitas. Heck the show even spelled it out. He is the only one that truly serves the dark and not just his own petty wishes. The actor has been fantastic and I’m sure they’ll bring him back later. Basically all the other forsaken serve their own agenda and are more happy to just carve out their own fiefdoms. Lanfear just wants Rand. Moridin is the one who coordinates everyone as the leader. My guess is they bring him back at the end of season four or sometime during season five. Edit: since the dark one is such an abstract force he’s basically the main villain of the entire series. I don’t think you can be done with him after two seasons. Edited October 17, 2023 by Arakasi Poobah and Wouter 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Yeah, I think having one true believer is valuable, especially when the motivation that makes him a true believer is also somewhat sympathetic. Also if they want to keep the way Rand wins in the end, he needs someone to be struggling over Callandor with him right? I actually don't remember aMoL that well either, but I thought that was relevant to beating the DO not just Rand stealing his body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Rand also descends into darkness in part due to his connection to Moridin, which is also how he accesses the True Power, which is more than a little important in multiple scenes. I don't think another Forsaken makes sense in this role, because I think Ishy's philosophy is what carries it. I suppose they could introduce another Forsaken with similar views, but I can't see it working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gertrude Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 OK - so leadership is the main one and then the connection to the True Power. I do think those can be written in some other ways if they decide to. I'm just trying to figure out if it's Ishy that needs to do these things, or if these are just things that need to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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