Do you agree that Tywin Lannister is Near Pure Evil?

[boltons are sick]

For those of you who don’t know, there are several wikis for villains. One of them is called Pure Evil wiki (which, in short, is about villains with no redeeming or sympathetic qualities), the second is called Near Pure Evil wiki (Which, in short, is about villains with almost no redeeming or sympathetic qualities but they still can’t qualify for the Pure Evil wiki for some reason. However, there are other cases where a villain can be Near Pure Evil even if they don't have any redeemable qualities like slightly lacking moral agency or slightly failing the heinous standard of the series because they don't go the extra mile in terms of crimes). There is also a third wiki called the Inconsistently Heinous wiki (which, in short, is about characters who have committed awful crimes, but they still have too many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and excuses for their actions to qualify as Pure Evil or Near Pure Evil). The name “Inconsistently Heinous” means that the characters are too inconsistent in their heinousness to be Near Pure Evil and they need to have many redeeming and sympathetic qualities and/or excuses for their actions. Often times Inconsistently Heinous characters can even be morally ambiguous heroes in the stories they are depicted, but they also do some bad things along the way.

Tywin is listed on the Near Pure Evil wiki due to his minor Freudian Excuse and because he seems to have some slight feelings for some members of his family but they are considered to be minor preventions. Here is a list of the crimes he has committed as well as some other reasons which make him close to being Pure Evil which is copied and pasted from his page on the wiki:

Exclusive to the Books

• Forced his father's mistress to perform a Walk of Shame across all of Lannisport, saying to everyone that she is a golddigger when he caught her wearing his mother's jewels. She is then banished from the city with no clothes or money which means she presumably dies.
• While he had Tysha gang-raped in both versions, in the books it is even worse, as he also made Tyrion join in, and it is confirmed later on that she was set up for Tyrion by Jaime as Tywin had lied, but that she presumably genuinely loved him.
• Hangs the innkepeer of the inn where Tyrion was kidnapped even though she had nothing to do with the kidnapping.
• Agrees to Tyrion's plan to arm the mountain clans with weapons and armor which makes him indirectly responsible for their raids against the people of the Vale.
• Hires a notoriously psychopathic band of mercenaries called the Brave Companions who are infamous for their sadistic cruelty. He commands them to join Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch's men in pillaging the Riverlands. These raids claim countless lives with many people raped, tortured and killed and many villages destroyed.
• Punishes all the soldiers who fled during the Battle of Blackwater by having their knees broken, commenting that when people see them begging on the streets of King's Landing, it would serve as a warning to everyone.
• Listens to Littlefinger's idea to present the 12-year-old Jeyne Poole as Sansa Stark and give her to Roose Bolton, so she can be married to his son Ramsay. This makes the two of them indirectly responsible for the torture and abuse Ramsay inflicts on her.

Exclusive to the TV series

• When Ned Stark is wounded in a duel with Jaime, Tywin asks his son why Ned is still alive, and Jaime responds by saying that killing him like that would be dishonorable, and Tywin doesn't care.
• When one of his men, Amory Lorch, was shot by a poisoned dart, he vainly suspecting that the arrow was intended to reach him and allowed the hanging of many of his men to find the shooter.

Both

• Pettily abusing Tyrion his whole childhood and afterwards, at one point even having Tysha, a teenage girl who Tyrion was in love with, gang-raped just to punish him.
  • He was additionally a bad parent to Jaime and Cersei, as he was often away from them as kids in King's landing, mostly having his servants raise them, was disciplinary and controlling towards them, and as adults, he mostly tries to use them as tools to continue his legacy. This also makes their present villainy as adults at least partially Tywin's fault.
• Having the Reynes and the Tarbecks wiped out because they weren't paying back debts and slighted House Lannister along with all their servants and peasants, which also includes children and even infants, and wrote a song to gloat about it.
• During Robert's Rebellion, he stayed neutral for most of the war, only joining the rebellion once it was all but ensured that Robert would win, he joined by feigning loyalty to Aerys, convincing him to open the gates, and the sacking the city allowed his men to rape and kill throughout.
• To prove he was loyal to Robert and his cause, he had The Mountain and Amory Lorch murder the infant Aegon and the little girl Rhaenys Targaryen so there would be no challengers to the iron throne, and while he himself denies it, it is possible that he had The Mountain rape and murder Elia Martell as well, presumably out of petty revenge for her marrying Rhaegar instead.
• When Tyrion is taken prisoner by Catelyn Stark, even though Tywin hates Tyrion, he still tries to get him back because that would be bad for the reputation of House Lannister if he didn't. He does so by sending The Mountain and his army to rape, pillage, and burn the Riverlands, and he doesn't even bother to care as to why Tyrion was kidnapped.
• He led his men to fighting against Robb Stark and tried to crush the north army, which indirectly also caused his son to be taken prisoner. It is possible that he also order his men to find where the Brotherhood without Banners is to destroy them.
• During gathering of generals about the war in Stark, he erupts in rage at the advice of those present and orders one of them to return to his wife, before sending her his head.
• Has people taken prisoner and used for labor at Harrenhal. While in the TV series he did object to the pointless torturing there, that was only because it would be a better use of resources to put them to work instead of torturing them.
• Forces Tyrion and Cersei into marriage alliances with Sansa and Loras respectively even though his own children don't want it. And it is also pretty hypocritical since Tywin himself married for love, and never remarried after Joanna's death.
• Along with Walder Frey and Roose Bolton, he orchestrates the Red Wedding, one of the most infamous moments in the whole franchise, and one of the darkest and most tragic in all of literature and television today, resulting in the deaths of Robb Stark, Catelyn Stark, the pregnant Talisa Stark, the direwolf Grey Wind, and thousands of people who were accompanying them. Even if the deaths themselves were ignored, the act itself was thoroughly dishonorable; he had them butchered while they were celebrating and bonding, and at a wedding, and while they were supposed to be protected by guest right. He later tries to justify it by asking how it is "more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle then a dozen at dinner". Unwittingly, this ends up making Westeros an even more dangerous place now that the sacred custom of guest right was broken, meaning a guest and host were no longer safe from each other under the same roof.
• When Tyrion asks when he has ever done anything not for himself, but solely for the benefit of his family, an example he can think of is with Tyrion. He claims that when Tyrion was born, he attempted to take him to he sea where he would drown to death, though he changed his mind because Tyrion was still his son and a Lannister.
• He angrily disowns Jaime after the latter makes it clear that he is going to remain in the Kingsguard.
• When Tyrion is accused of killing Joffrey, Tywin is heavily implied to doubt Tyrion's guilt but still tries to get rid of him anyway, either by exiling him to the Night's Watch or execution. And during his trial, he has several people bear false witness against him.
• He also tried to gave Sansa to execution in the same, even order to close the port to prevent her from escaping.
• Puts a bounty on Sandor's head after he helps kill Polliver and his men at the inn. Also tries to lure Ser Barristan Selmy back to Winterfell so that he won't help Daenerys.
• When Ser Gregor brutally crushes Prince Oberyn's head with his bare hands and boasts about killing Elia Martell's children, then raping and killing her as well during Tyrion's trial by combat, Tywin doesn't look particularly shocked or disgusted and seems pretty unfazed by it, calmly sentencing Tyrion to death.
• Even though he hates whores, he has no problems sleeping with with Shae, presumably to spite Tyrion. It is also seen that he was going kill Shae if she didn't helped him testify against Tyrion.
• In his last confrontation with Tyrion, he belittles him and mocks him and admits that he has always wanted him dead, and when Tyrion fires a crossbow at him, Tywin angrily proclaims that Tyrion is not his son.
• His honor and standards are both pretty much just pragmatic and sometimes hypocritical, like his using people at Harrenhal as labor instead of pointlessly torturing them, the few times he recognizes Tyrion's brillance are pragmatic, he doesn't want Joffrey being mindlessly bloodthirsty and sadistic because he knows Joffrey isn't going to last very long that way, which he is right about, and that is bad for his family's reputation, he most likely wants Tyrion sent to night's watch so he won't viewed as a kinslayer by the public, and he was upset when Ned Stark was executed only because it sent them into a pointless war when Ned could have made a valuable hostage.
• His love for Jaime and Cersei based more on his legacy and political power rather than genuine love, which causes the lack of a truly loving relationship no doubt to play a significant role to not only to Jaime and Cersei's present villainy as adults, but also to their incestuous relationship. Even Cersei states in-universe that Tywin cares more about his legacy than his actual children.
• Considering his annihilation of the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Sacking of King's Landing, his ravaging of the Riverlands and being one of the main architects of the Red Wedding, Tywin Lannister can be considered one of the worst (if not the worst) war criminals in the series.

Here are also his moral event horizons that are listed on his infobox on his Near Pure Evil page:

• Pettily abusing Tyrion his whole life, even having Tysha gang-raped to spite him.
• Having the Reynes and Tarbecks annihilated.
• Sacking King's Landing while also having Aegon and Rhaenys Targaryen, and possibly Elia Martell killed by the Mountain.
• Sending The Mountain and his army to terrorize the Riverlands.
• Orchestrating the Red Wedding.

So, do you agree with the decision to list Tywin as Near Pure Evil or not?

[sifth]

He's the series best villain and killing him off so early has sort of hurt the series, IMO

Even though I think Euron has the potential to be even worse, we just haven't seen enough of him and I worry we never will with Winds constantly being pushed back.

[Odej]

One thing must be said about the Lannisters, they achieved a feat that not even the Targaryens with their reputation for madness managed: generating monsters for three generations in a row: Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Odej

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

7 minutes ago, Odej said:

One thing must be said about the Lannisters, they achieved a feat that not even the Targaryens, with their reputation for madness, managed: generating monsters for three generations in a row: Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey.

Plus, wasn't Tywin a teenager when he "dealt with" the Reynes and Tarbecks? That's a completely different level of messed up.

[sifth]

52 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Plus, wasn't Tywin a teenager when he "dealt with" the Reynes and Tarbecks? That's a completely different level of messed up.

He's basically just Joffrey with a brain. He knows when he can get away with massive acts of cruelty and when he can't.

[Alester Florent]

Sigh.

One thing I will note is that the list of crimes above is sufficiently extensive and petty that I think it actually underplays Tywin's villainy.

Quote

During gathering of generals about the war in Stark, he erupts in rage at the advice of those present

Truly a monstrous crime.

Quote

Has people taken prisoner and used for labor at Harrenhal.

The worst thing anyone in Westeros has ever done.

Quote

He led his men to fighting against Robb Stark and tried to crush the north army, which indirectly also caused his son to be taken prisoner.

Not only is this wrong (Jaime's capture had nothing particularly to do with Tywin's manoeuvrings against Roose), Robb was explicitly coming south to fight Tywin: you can't damn Tywin for fighting Robb without doing the same for Robb.

And so on.

Another thing I will note is that the list is clearly compiled by show-watchers rather than book-readers, as there are a number of things in that list that either didn't happen in the books or played out rather differently.

[LongRider]

3 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

For those of you who don’t know, there are several wikis for villains.

Oh, we know as you keep reminding us.  Also, who cares?

[Craving Peaches]

Not this again!

[kissdbyfire]

I wholeheartedly agree w/ @Alester Florent, especially irt SIGH. 

And as @LongRider said, who cares? @Craving Peaches also makes an excellent point by saying “not this again!”. 
I’ll also admit that I was soooooo wrong! We’re not getting these evil wiki whatever threads every other week, it seems we’re down to a weekly treat now? Are we going to get to every other day eventually? 
 

As to the OP proper, yes, Tywin is evil. And an arsehole w/ zero empathy or compassion, an altogether nasty individual. Probably worse than more obvious monsters like Ramsay b/c, like his evil daughter Cersei, he comes from incredible privilege in a world where that vast majority have no rights at all. 
 

And lastly, definitely agree that this list was made at least in part w/ the abomination in mind. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And lastly, definitely agree that this list was made at least in part w/ the abomination in mind. 

I love calling it the abomination. I am watching it with my partner, because she wanted to watch it. We made it two episodes into the second season, and I'm not sure I can continue. The first season was okay (although both my partner and I spent almost as long talking about the mistakes they made by cutting out scenes or giving like...so many female character's lines to male characters...or pointless sex scenes...etc etc than we did actually watching the show), but as soon as the second season starts, they stray from the books and every choice they make is bad. Every single one. I swear. 

16 hours ago, sifth said:

He's basically just Joffrey with a brain. He knows when he can get away with massive acts of cruelty and when he can't.

I love this. 

17 hours ago, sifth said:

He's the series best villain and killing him off so early has sort of hurt the series, IMO

Even though I think Euron has the potential to be even worse, we just haven't seen enough of him and I worry we never will with Winds constantly being pushed back.

However, I was super happy when Tywin died. I am good with his death when it happened. I couldn't handle him being alive anymore, lol. I think GRRM perfectly timed his death where he made me hate him to a point, but if he'd kept living, I would have gotten burned out and annoyed and just wanted him dead. However, the main thing is, I think his death made sense. GRRM is the master of making deaths seem natural and unforced. A note : I think the best villain post-Tywin is his daughter. I am on AFfC reread right now, and I love her chapters. Heck, Tyrion kind of felt like a villain too sometimes in ADwD. Certainly a darker shade of gray then he had been before. I'm excited to see what Cersei, or Tyrion, or both, do in TWoW. 

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I love calling it the abomination. I am watching it with my partner, because she wanted to watch it. We made it two episodes into the second season, and I'm not sure I can continue. The first season was okay (although both my partner and I spent almost as long talking about the mistakes they made by cutting out scenes or giving like...so many female character's lines to male characters...or pointless sex scenes...etc etc than we did actually watching the show), but as soon as the second season starts, they stray from the books and every choice they make is bad. Every single one. I swear.

In the second season, I actually thought that Arya's plot was improved, at least for the purposes of putting it on screen. The repetitiveness of Arya's escapes and recaptures got a bit wearing even in the book and wouldn't have worked in the condensed TV format: as it was Arya's story hit many of the same beats without so much shoe leather. I liked her scenes with Tywin (a clever way in itself of keeping Tywin in focus when otherwise such a major character would have been offscreen) and I think they did a decent job of squaring what was already an issue in the books: Arya's wasting of her first two "names".

I struggle to think of any other changes I actually liked, though.

And the pattern continues throughout the following seasons: less nuance, less attention to detail, more compression of plots, more gratuitous nudity. Some plots (Meereen) are merely oversimplified and disappointing; some (Dorne) are mangled beyond recognition. Some characters get too much attention (Ramsay) while others disappear for whole seasons (Bran). It was still capable of good things, but those moments became increasingly few and far between, with a show initially prized for its characterisation, wit and plotting becoming increasingly narratively straightforward, with leaden dialogue and cock jokes filling the gaps between the big fight scenes.

The showrunners have been fairly open that their preference was always for spectacle and shock over narrative structure, character development and, you know, making sense, and as they ran out of material from GRRM to crib from this became increasingly apparent, reaching its awful climax when it was apparent that the showrunners themselves had essentially lost interest in the show and resulting in a final season which, while it was very much in line with the preceding trend, everyone hated. Book-readers who had spent seasons griping about how the show was drifting and missing the point and being told to pipe down by show-watchers were suddenly vindicated, but it was just so bad that nobody could really take any satisfaction from it.

I stopped watching after the end of S4, for two reasons: firstly, they would clearly be pushing the plot past the end of the published books, and I felt that the show had almost always got worse the further it strayed from the books; secondly, the specific changes they made to Tywin's assassination scene, removing any mention of Tysha from the story and apparently having Tyrion kill him to avenge the memory of Shae (yeah, the woman Tyrion had just killed himself for banging his dad). This after the story of Tysha had already been told, back in S1, to set the scene up! It just felt to me like they had missed the point so hard that I couldn't trust them to tell the story any further.

I did eventually come back and watch the remaining four seasons earlier this year after being exposed to so many spoilers for the final seasons that I figured I might as well...

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

In the second season, I actually thought that Arya's plot was improved, at least for the purposes of putting it on screen. The repetitiveness of Arya's escapes and recaptures got a bit wearing even in the book and wouldn't have worked in the condensed TV format: as it was Arya's story hit many of the same beats without so much shoe leather. I liked her scenes with Tywin (a clever way in itself of keeping Tywin in focus when otherwise such a major character would have been offscreen) and I think they did a decent job of squaring what was already an issue in the books: Arya's wasting of her first two "names".

I struggle to think of any other changes I actually liked, though.

And the pattern continues throughout the following seasons: less nuance, less attention to detail, more compression of plots, more gratuitous nudity. Some plots (Meereen) are merely oversimplified and disappointing; some (Dorne) are mangled beyond recognition. Some characters get too much attention (Ramsay) while others disappear for whole seasons (Bran). It was still capable of good things, but those moments became increasingly few and far between, with a show initially prized for its characterisation, wit and plotting becoming increasingly narratively straightforward, with leaden dialogue and cock jokes filling the gaps between the big fight scenes.

The showrunners have been fairly open that their preference was always for spectacle and shock over narrative structure, character development and, you know, making sense, and as they ran out of material from GRRM to crib from this became increasingly apparent, reaching its awful climax when it was apparent that the showrunners themselves had essentially lost interest in the show and resulting in a final season which, while it was very much in line with the preceding trend, everyone hated. Book-readers who had spent seasons griping about how the show was drifting and missing the point and being told to pipe down by show-watchers were suddenly vindicated, but it was just so bad that nobody could really take any satisfaction from it.

I stopped watching after the end of S4, for two reasons: firstly, they would clearly be pushing the plot past the end of the published books, and I felt that the show had almost always got worse the further it strayed from the books; secondly, the specific changes they made to Tywin's assassination scene, removing any mention of Tysha from the story and apparently having Tyrion kill him to avenge the memory of Shae (yeah, the woman Tyrion had just killed himself for banging his dad). This after the story of Tysha had already been told, back in S1, to set the scene up! It just felt to me like they had missed the point so hard that I couldn't trust them to tell the story any further.

I did eventually come back and watch the remaining four seasons earlier this year after being exposed to so many spoilers for the final seasons that I figured I might as well...

I watched somewhere into the 5th season, and quit and have never watched the rest. I believe there was some battle with Others, and I found it idiotic and hollywood-esq, and I just couldn't do it. I already told my partner I won't watch the 5th season or beyond, lol. My love for her can only take me to the 4th season. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I love calling it the abomination.
 

Call it what it is, right? 

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I am watching it with my partner, because she wanted to watch it. We made it two episodes into the second season, and I'm not sure I can continue. The first season was okay (although both my partner and I spent almost as long talking about the mistakes they made by cutting out scenes or giving like...so many female character's lines to male characters...or pointless sex scenes...etc etc than we did actually watching the show), but as soon as the second season starts, they stray from the books and every choice they make is bad. Every single one. I swear. 

Same here. 

 

7 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

In the second season, I actually thought that Arya's plot was improved, at least for the purposes of putting it on screen. The repetitiveness of Arya's escapes and recaptures got a bit wearing even in the book and wouldn't have worked in the condensed TV format: as it was Arya's story hit many of the same beats without so much shoe leather. I liked her scenes with Tywin (a clever way in itself of keeping Tywin in focus when otherwise such a major character would have been offscreen) and I think they did a decent job of squaring what was already an issue in the books: Arya's wasting of her first two "names".

I disagree so much here! I hated s2, and I especially hated Arya’s scenes w/ kindly grandpa Tywin. I do understand some of the reasons for those changes, but I still hate them.

Show!Tywin was less evil than book!Tywin, as the OP’s list shows.

[Nevets]

7 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

In the second season, I actually thought that Arya's plot was improved, at least for the purposes of putting it on screen. The repetitiveness of Arya's escapes and recaptures got a bit wearing even in the book and wouldn't have worked in the condensed TV format: as it was Arya's story hit many of the same beats without so much shoe leather. I liked her scenes with Tywin (a clever way in itself of keeping Tywin in focus when otherwise such a major character would have been offscreen) and I think they did a decent job of squaring what was already an issue in the books: Arya's wasting of her first two "names".

I struggle to think of any other changes I actually liked, though.

And the pattern continues throughout the following seasons: less nuance, less attention to detail, more compression of plots, more gratuitous nudity. Some plots (Meereen) are merely oversimplified and disappointing; some (Dorne) are mangled beyond recognition. Some characters get too much attention (Ramsay) while others disappear for whole seasons (Bran). It was still capable of good things, but those moments became increasingly few and far between, with a show initially prized for its characterisation, wit and plotting becoming increasingly narratively straightforward, with leaden dialogue and cock jokes filling the gaps between the big fight scenes.

The showrunners have been fairly open that their preference was always for spectacle and shock over narrative structure, character development and, you know, making sense, and as they ran out of material from GRRM to crib from this became increasingly apparent, reaching its awful climax when it was apparent that the showrunners themselves had essentially lost interest in the show and resulting in a final season which, while it was very much in line with the preceding trend, everyone hated. Book-readers who had spent seasons griping about how the show was drifting and missing the point and being told to pipe down by show-watchers were suddenly vindicated, but it was just so bad that nobody could really take any satisfaction from it.

I stopped watching after the end of S4, for two reasons: firstly, they would clearly be pushing the plot past the end of the published books, and I felt that the show had almost always got worse the further it strayed from the books; secondly, the specific changes they made to Tywin's assassination scene, removing any mention of Tysha from the story and apparently having Tyrion kill him to avenge the memory of Shae (yeah, the woman Tyrion had just killed himself for banging his dad). This after the story of Tysha had already been told, back in S1, to set the scene up! It just felt to me like they had missed the point so hard that I couldn't trust them to tell the story any further.

I did eventually come back and watch the remaining four seasons earlier this year after being exposed to so many spoilers for the final seasons that I figured I might as well...

I actually disagree about Arya.  I miss the horrors of Haren-hell.  Her time there, afraid and helpless, are a big reason she such a fucked up mess by the time she gets to Braavos.  I was looking forward to seeing how they handled it all.  I wasn't expecting them to ignore it. 

Her time with Tywin felt like a really bad summer break.  She needed something to be scared of.  And not "they might find out who I am and ship me to Kings Landing or Casterly Rock" but "someone might beat me, rape me, kill me because they feel like it and can get away with it".  And her screwing up the first two deaths is kind of the point.  She's acting impulsively out of anger, one of her big flaws.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Nevets

[SeanF]

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Call it what it is, right? 

Same here. 

 

I disagree so much here! I hated s2, and I especially hated Arya’s scenes w/ kindly grandpa Tywin. I do understand some of the reasons for those changes, but I still hate them.

Show!Tywin was less evil than book!Tywin, as the OP’s list shows.

At the time, I quite liked the scenes between Arya and Tywin, but now see it a big mistake to try and lighten Tywin (along with the other Lannisters).

Once you change the nature of a character, you change the whole story.  Whitewashing Tyrion and Jorah, for example, meant Dany had to be made much more callous than she is in the books.

If we ever get Tyrion advocating starving the people of the capital, in the books, I’m sure it won’t be portrayed as “humanitarian”.

[Craving Peaches]

In before it turns into a Tywin vs Cersei who is more evil debate and the 'Poor Cersei was just forced to murder all those babies' 'argument'.

[Darth Sidious]

No. He’s up there though.