Israel - Hamas War IV

[Ran]

Strangely, no reports of people having died of privation in Gaza. Even the latest UNRWA call for aid doesn't claim anyone has actually died of either hunger or thirst.

Footage from Gaza show a lot of healthy-seeming people. I don't think the crisis is at such a point that they're unable to work in hospitals, do labor like filling sand bags, or in theory take part in anti-Hamas activities like marching, protesting, or taking up arms.

And if they did take up arms, innocent civilians will still suffer and die. But that's because of the evil that is Hamas, which can no longer be allowed to control Gaza. An end to fighting this fight is a reversion to the status quo which guarantees future unjust deaths for both sides.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Ran

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

take part in anti-Hamas activities like marching, protesting, or taking up arms.

It’s not a democracy and no one’s marching around during air strikes by Israel for the same reason Israelis aren’t marching around largely to demand Netanyahu give up his position in their democracy.

[Luzifer's right hand]

9 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Okay but why appoint a self-admitted fascist to oversee The West Bank, keep building settlements, and kinda protect Settler terrorists?

 

Because the Israeli government gained nothing by acting against the fascist groups amongst it's people when abandoning Gaza. They won't repeat that mistake that only harmed its own citizens in the long term.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Luzifer's right hand

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Because the Israeli government gained nothing by acting against against the fascist groups amongst it's people when abandoning Gaza. They won't repeat that mistake that only harmed its own citizens in the long term.

So because Hamas capitalized on feelings of discontentment and captured Gaza Israel is allowed to keep building settlements and appointing self described  fascists oversee the West Bank?

 

[Crixus]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I don't know, how do rebellions ever start? Someone stands up and says, "No more."

Sorry, but this sort of statement is so infuriating in its patronising and simplistic nature. For one second, put yourself in such a position with complete honesty and confirm how easy it would be for you 'stand up and say no more' - I'd venture it wouldn't be a walk in the park. Much easier to be strong and principled in theory, imo. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So because Hamas capitalized on feelings of discontentment and captured Gaza Israel is allowed to keep building settlements and appointing self described  fascists oversee the West Bank?

 

I'm only trying to explain the reasons why Israel has mostly stopped trying to use force against international fascist groups.

They did in the past and it has only harmed Israel. It is not rational to do it again.

I'm not saying it is not immoral.

[Varysblackfyre321]

Just now, Crixus said:

Sorry, but this sort of statement is so infuriating in its patronising and simplistic nature. For one second, put yourself in such a position with complete honesty and confirm how easy it would be for you 'stand up and say no more' - I'd venture it wouldn't be a walk in the park. Much easier to be strong and principled in theory, imo. 

I don’t particularly judge the average Russian for not pulling a full Rambo and just one manning an over throw of the government.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

I'm only trying to explain the reasons why Israel has mostly stopped trying to use force against international fascist groups.

 

What?

 

[Ran]

Just now, Crixus said:

Sorry, but this sort of statement is so infuriating in its patronising and simplistic nature.

Is it an untrue statement, however? 

To me, the argument that Gazans have and have never had agency is the truly patronizing one. We all make choices.

 

[Craving Peaches]

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

Strangely, no reports of people having died of privation in Gaza

But there are reports of people drinking dirty water, having to heavily ration food and so on.

That means sickness/low energy so yeah, I don't see people protesting in those circumstances (not to mention air raids)....

[Crixus]

23 minutes ago, Ran said:

Strangely, no reports of people having died of privation in Gaza. Even the latest UNRWA call for aid doesn't claim anyone has actually died of either hunger or thirst.

Footage from Gaza show a lot of healthy-seeming people. I don't think the crisis is at such a point that they're unable to work in hospitals, do labor like filling sand bags, or in theory take part in anti-Hamas activities like marching, protesting, or taking up arms.

And if they did take up arms, innocent civilians will still suffer and die. But that's because of the evil that is Hamas, which can no longer be allowed to control Gaza. An end to fighting this fight is a reversion to the status quo which guarantees future unjust deaths for both sides.

I know, how 'strange', right?? Perhaps, there is an infinitesimal possibility that the people moving around trying to help are the ones who are able to do so and not the ones grievously injured or starving/dehydrated, and thus those we have footage of (by the way there is plenty of gruesome footage of the latter too, FYI)? Or even, perhaps, that these people are pretty used to hardship and therefore more resilient than your average First World couch potato? But yeah, very strange indeed! 

 

ETA: would you expect the UNRWA and others to only raise the alarm when x people have died? Does being proactive to stave off such deaths seem silly and uncalled for to you?

Edited October 19, 2023 by Crixus

[Crixus]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Is it an untrue statement, however? 

To me, the argument that Gazans have and have never had agency is the truly patronizing one. We all make choices.

 

Not having agency =/= 'let's overthrow the government, piece of cake!'. If it were, plenty of other countries would've done it - North Korea, Russia and the list goes on. Are you saying those millions of people don't have agency and if yes, is that patronising too?

And in fact, when you have little control over many aspects of your daily life such as where you can move around, you do not have much agency. A fact is not patronising, sorry. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

9 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

What?

 

In Gaza they acted with force against settlers and people protesting the abandonment of settlements. As I said it only gained them negative things. Why act against those groups again? To create another uncontrollable hostile territory? Allowing them to do their thing is the most rational approach in my opinion. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Luzifer's right hand

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

s it an untrue statement, however? 

Yes slaves can choose to try taking the whip out their masters hand before it cracks them. They can inspire others to do likewise. Many a brave soul have risked their lives for freedom. But many people instead are unfortunately wary of things like pain, getting murdered and their families getting murdered over some axiomatic ideal for freedom.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Allowing them to do their things is the most rational approach in my opinion. 

…Tbc you’re arguing for a self-perpetuating problem. The more Settlers expand, the more they terrorize, the more instances where “we can’t pull back the settlers now, they’ll hate us” there will be. Where does it rationally end in your view? With a complete gobble up of Palestine along with a enforced Aparteid?

[Ran]

11 minutes ago, Crixus said:

'let's overthrow the government, piece of cake!'.

Who said it was a piece of cake? 

But the people of Palestine have taken on far huger and deadlier challenges than Hamas, you must admit, which makes the protest that they can't possibly challenge Hamas a bit hard to credit. The Palestinian people are nothing if not courageous.

On the other topic being discussed, I don't see the relevance of settlers to the future of Gaza. Israel has no settlers there, and has no desire to occupy Gaza. Frankly, free of Hamas, Gaza could become a model for future statehood, with none of the conflicts of the West Bank due to illegal settlement and expulsions.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Ran

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

But the people of Palestine

It’s best to specify we’re talking about Gazans overthrowing hamas. Most of which are literal children.

[kissdbyfire]

26 minutes ago, Ran said:

Strangely, no reports of people having died of privation in Gaza. Even the latest UNRWA call for aid doesn't claim anyone has actually died of either hunger or thirst.

Footage from Gaza show a lot of healthy-seeming people. I don't think the crisis is at such a point that they're unable to work in hospitals, do labor like filling sand bags, or in theory take part in anti-Hamas activities like marching, protesting, or taking up arms.

And if they did take up arms, innocent civilians will still suffer and die. But that's because of the evil that is Hamas, which can no longer be allowed to control Gaza. An end to fighting this fight is a reversion to the status quo which guarantees future unjust deaths for both sides.

I think saying “oh but no one has died of dehydration and people look healthy on the footage we’re seeing” is reductive and somewhat disingenuous. 
The fact that we haven’t had specific reports of people dying of dehydration doesn’t mean no one has died of dehydration. Especially when you think of the most susceptible like the very young, the elderly, the sick. 
 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/15/exp-israel-gaza-evacuation-who-brennan-holmes-intv-101511pseg1-cnni-world.cnn
 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/17/fears-grow-people-are-dehydrating-to-death-in-gaza-as-clean-water-runs-out

 

12 minutes ago, Ran said:

Is it an untrue statement, however? 

To me, the argument that Gazans have and have never had agency is the truly patronizing one. We all make choices.

It’s so easy for us to make these claims though… from the safety and comfort of our homes. Ideally yes, Gazans should rise up in rebellion and overthrow Hamas. But the reality is, it’s not as easy or as simple as that, is it?

[Ran]

10 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’s best to specify we’re talking about Gazans overthrowing hamas. Most of which are literal children.

1 million aren't. Of those, some 500,000 are adult men. Of those, 4-50,000 are Hamas militants. That leaves the other 450,000.

Look, I'm from a country that threw out the greatest power the world had ever seen, and am descended of people who resisted a revolutionary government and were brutalized and imprisoned, in one case for decades, because of that resistance. History is filled with revolution and rebellion, even in wartime. Fucking Nazis tried to take out Hitler because he was going too far for them.

And here, now, we're talking about a people that have for 60 years or so fought a generally-losing war against a numerically and technologically and economically superior power allied with most of the world's greatest powers while they have largely been ignored and unsupported, and they struggle on.

But you dare suggest that they consider turning that will to resist against the unelected jihadist death cult that has unleashed this particular hell on them, and my goodness, people are in a tizzy.

I feel like this whole thing has gone astray from the original point that I was making, however, namely that Hamas has to go as the controlling power in Gaza for there to be any hope for peace in the future. That's not negotiable, and whether it's done by Israel or by the people of Gaza, it has to be done. Otherwise, the bombs will definitely be falling again in the future, however one may lament it.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Ran

[Crixus]

3 minutes ago, Ran said:

Who said it was a piece of cake? 

But the people of Palestine have taken on far huger and deadlier challenges than Hamas, you must admit, which makes the protest that they can't possibly challenge Hamas a bit hard to credit. The Palestinian people are nothing if not courageous.

Makes it hard FOR YOU to credit - an opinion, not universally accepted fact. I come from a country currently going through a massive repression of civil rights and other shit - I know how scary it is to contemplate resistance when you're clinging to whatever little you have left, when mortal peril isn't an abstract idea you experience through the latest trendy film or sensationalised news clips, but actual, constant real life where you have seen close friends get picked up and disappeared. 

Such situations are complex and layered - fear of Hamas reprisals; misplaced faith in them being the only option because that's what they've been brainwashed into thinking, especially when the rest of the world literally ignores them regularly, hardly blinking when hundreds of them are routinely killed by Israel (and probably by Hamas), so essentially thinking they have no choice; hopelessness that comes with being born in a horrible situation with no conceivable way out.... I could go on. Hell, I could refer to the series this board is based on for a fair insight into how such complex life circumstances work.