Israel - Hamas War VI

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Altherion said:

I meant according to the modern laws of war, not what is physically possible.

As others have pointed out the laws of war here are not particularly meaningful given that Israel does not ascribe to most of the international courts that would prosecute it and they have not historically given any meaningful justice or investigations into other major issues they've had. We talked previously about the reporter that an Israeli soldier or soldiers shot and killed and how absolutely no investigation happened; I don't expect any review of any of these events to happen either. 

Ultimately Israel will almost certainly not be held accountable provided they do not do too much more than what they have already done and they don't have any single disasters like what folks thought the hospital bombing might be. Israel will only change if they get enough external pressure to do so. 

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

I literally just published something along these lines on another forum.

It's been on my mind for a while, and I can't help see that some variation of the discussions we've had over the past few weeks is what awaits us in the next decades.

I think it's going to be a lot uglier tbh, especially as people freak out over a refugee crisis that will make the Syrian one look tiny.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly. And all the while the powers that be will keep going at it w/ pathetic half-measures, and that’s the optimistic view. The not so optimistic one is everyone continues doing fuck all and half the population & leaders continue denying it vigorously while they cash in all the money they’re getting from the fossil fuel lobbies worldwide. 

Pretty much. Half measures seem unrealistic at this point and I suspect doing next to nothing will be the norm until it's too late. This is why people suck. Most of our problems are solvable and many don't even require that much effort. Just take the conflict we're discussing here. This situation is fixable with cooler heads in charge and an agreed acceptance that nobody is going to get everything they want. A decade from now things could be pretty good for all parties, but no, we need to keep putting uncompromising assholes in charge who just keep making everything worse because that's been working...

[Altherion]

30 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don’t want my country to re-elect a fascist even if means not ANNILATING HAMAs whatever the fuck that means I’m sure whatever geopolitical consequences for the world and even region is not worth the risk.

Biden chose by far the lesser political evil though. Had he tried to placate the terrorist sympathizers, he would have have lost a lot more than 1% of the vote.

Quote

Ultimately Israel will almost certainly not be held accountable provided they do not do too much more than what they have already done and they don't have any single disasters like what folks thought the hospital bombing might be. Israel will only change if they get enough external pressure to do so.

There's an immense amount of external pressure right now. I think the Israelis are sufficiently provoked that they won't stop until they either get what they want or they have absolutely no choice (either the war goes badly for them or the US tells them to stop).

[Kalbear]

13 minutes ago, Altherion said:

Biden chose by far the lesser political evil though. Had he tried to placate the terrorist sympathizers, he would have have lost a lot more than 1% of the vote.

This is a pretty evil statement and I want to call this out.

The US population of Arab-Americans are not 'terrorist sympathizers' if they are concerned about the thousands of civilian Palestinian deaths. This is absolutely a bullshit viewpoint. Framing anyone who is concerned about those deaths or wants Biden to address anti-Arab sentiment in the US (such as the murder of a 6-year old Palestinian child recently) as a 'terrorist sympathizer' is revolting. 

 

[Ran]

From a Times of Israel reporter, on the Jabaliya airstrike:

 

[Kalbear]

That's a good example of the murkiness of the laws of war and war crimes. A senior military commander is a valid target. Is it crucial that they are killed right then? Is there no other way to kill or take them? Are they worth hundreds of civilian lives?

[Ran]

The commander may be the headline, but you're ignoring everything else: additional fighters, command and control local HQ, underground tunnels.

Not coincidentally, the IDF has been in firefights in western Jabaliya, which makes the local HQ of much more salience now than it would be if they were operating in some other part of Gaza:

ETA: Seeing claims of at least 2, and maybe as many as 8, IDF soldiers having been killed in the fighting against Hamas in northern Gaza.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Ran

[Altherion]

6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

This is a pretty evil statement and I want to call this out.

The US population of Arab-Americans are not 'terrorist sympathizers' if they are concerned about the thousands of civilian Palestinian deaths. This is absolutely a bullshit viewpoint. Framing anyone who is concerned about those deaths or wants Biden to address anti-Arab sentiment in the US (such as the murder of a 6-year old Palestinian child recently) as a 'terrorist sympathizer' is revolting.

It's only an evil statement if you put words into my mouth. I never said anything about the entire US population of Arab-Americans nor can what you said be implied from what I said by any reasonable reading. My point was simply that Biden's handling of the conflict was quite reasonable and consistent with the views of the vast majority of Americans. Had he been less pro-Israel and more pro-Hamas, he would have lost much more than he did.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Altherion said:

It's only an evil statement if you put words into my mouth. I never said anything about the entire US population of Arab-Americans nor can what you said be implied from what I said by any reasonable reading. My point was simply that Biden's handling of the conflict was quite reasonable and consistent with the views of the vast majority of Americans. Had he been less pro-Israel and more pro-Hamas, he would have lost much more than he did.

You responded to Biden losing polling numbers with Arab Americans with your response. I didn't put any words in your mouth. If you meant that he should be trying to placate Hamas, say so; that wasn't what you responded to. I can't read your mind.

That said, your followup comment  makes it pretty clear that's what you meant. Being in favor of a ceasefire and protecting Palestinian lives is not 'pro-Hamas'. It is a sickening statement. 

[fionwe1987]

Past Lies About War in the Middle East are Getting in the Way of the Truth Today https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/31/opinion/columnists/israel-gaza-hamas-misinformation.html?smid=nytcore-android-share

[Ran]

The IDF's official summary of today's events, including the fighting in Jibalya and the airstrike, including the report of collapsing tunnels "amplifying" the damage.

[Zorral]

Goddamn Politico etc. who report all the Jewish leaders meeting with First Gentleman, etc. about the administrations concerns about the growing violent acts against Jews and Muslims in this country -- and yet it is only Jewish incidents talked about, and the 'pro-Hamas' demonstrations on campuses.  

I don't know about all the country, but the campuses I know best and well, those protests and NOT PRO-Hamas -- they are anti-bombing of Gazan civilians, and PRO humanitarian aid and CEASEFIRE.

Great way to win hearts and mind you guys.

[kissdbyfire]

Ugh… the “unintentional” use of pro-Hamas instead of pro-Palestinian civilians.

[JoannaL]

45 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Goddamn Politico etc. who report all the Jewish leaders meeting with First Gentleman, etc. about the administrations concerns about the growing violent acts against Jews and Muslims in this country -- and yet it is only Jewish incidents talked about, and the 'pro-Hamas' demonstrations on campuses.  

I don't know about all the country, but the campuses I know best and well, those protests and NOT PRO-Hamas -- they are anti-bombing of Gazan civilians, and PRO humanitarian aid and CEASEFIRE.

Great way to win hearts and mind you guys.

Great that at your campus all is well but antisemitic incidents are on the rise in the US and especially on campuses.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-10-29/antisemitism-college-campus-israel-hamas-palestine

from the article.

"A Columbia professor called the Hamas massacre “awesome” and a “stunning victory.” A Yale professor tweeted, “It’s been such an extraordinary day!” while calling Israel a “murderous, genocidal settler state.” A Chicago art professor posted a note reading, “Israelis are pigs. Savages. Very very bad people. Irredeemable excrement…. May they all rot in hell.” A UC Davis professor tweeted, “Zionist journalists … have houses w addresses, kids in school,” adding “they can fear their bosses, but they should fear us more.” There are, sadly, countless other examples."

[kissdbyfire]

It’s true there is a rise in antisemitism, but it’s a half-truth. The whole truth is that there is a rise in both antisemitism and Islamophobia - it’s a rise in hate speech/crimes. And I’m sure if the haters find something else to hate, they will. 
 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/30/fbi-threats-jewish-muslim-antisemitic/

[Relic]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s true there is a rise in antisemitism, but it’s a half-truth.

I think its very safe to say there has been a sharp rise in expressed hatred, in general, over the past month. The more the powers that be play into it, the worse it will get. 

So far, Hamas is the only party winning here. 

[Zorral]

8 minutes ago, Relic said:

So far, Hamas is the only party winning here. 

So sadly, true.

Though, it has happened, hasn't it, that at least some of what has been labeled as anti-semitic, has been mis-reported, or mis-understood, and even sometimes deliberately.  Such as people taking down the posters begging the Israeli hostages be released plastered all over subways and neighborhoods, because the residents felt those posters inflamed those with 'mental health issues' and encouraged violence.

Also, you know, there are anti-Muslim events and violence going on simultaneously.  We are all losers here. All of us.

Except, as you say, the vile Hamas.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Zorral

[Altherion]

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s true there is a rise in antisemitism, but it’s a half-truth.

It's more like a 75% or even a 90% truth. It's true that there is also a rise in anti-Muslim sentiment, but the antisemitism is much, much more widespread. From the director of the FBI:

Quote

 

FBI Director Christopher Wray said Tuesday that antisemitism is reaching “historic levels” in the United States.

“This is a threat that is reaching, in some way, sort of historic levels,” Wray said during a Senate hearing Tuesday. The FBI director said that was in part because “the Jewish community is targeted by terrorists really across the spectrum” including homegrown violent extremists, foreign terrorist organizations, and domestic violent extremists.

“In fact, our statistics would indicate that for a group that represents only about 2.4% of the American public, they account for something like 60% of all religious-based hate crimes,” Wray said of the Jewish American population.

 

And that 60% is not relative to Islam, it's relative to all other religions in existence.

[kissdbyfire]

Ah that’s ok then, since it’s only x% hate against one and y% hate against another.

[Altherion]

No, it's not OK, but one of these problems is clearly much larger than the other...