Israel - Hamas war VIII

[Kalbear]

39 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

That's what I'm saying, I don't think there is going to be popular support for releasing terrorists with blood on their hands. Freeing captives is generally of utmost importance, and I understand some families support releasing any/all prisoners to get their loved ones back, but it is an impossible situation no matter what decision is made.

Per npr reporting a majority of Israelis support exchanging prisoners for hostages.

I too think it is the absolute wrong choice, but it has a lot of Israeli support.

[TrueMetis]

Well there's a whole bunch of people held in indefinite detention without any charges, including literal children, so they could start with those.

You know, hostages for hostages?

[Mudguard]

Sounds like Netanyahu's current plan is that Israel will occupy Gaza indefinitely.

Quote

Muir, noting Biden previously said it would be a "mistake" for Israel to occupy Gaza, asked Netanyahu who should govern the territory when the fighting ends.

The prime minister indicated he believes Israel will have a role to play for an "indefinite period." Last month, Israel Defense Minister Yoav Gallant suggested the final phase of the was would be to sever "Israel's responsibility for life in the Gaza Strip" and establish a "new security reality for the citizens of Israel.”

"Those who don't want to continue the way of Hamas," Netanyahu told Muir. "It certainly is not -- I think Israel will, for an indefinite period will have the overall security responsibility because we've seen what happens when we don't have it. When we don't have that security responsibility, what we have is the eruption of Hamas terror on a scale that we couldn't imagine."

 

[JoannaL]

I always liked the Guardian (often long and intelligent analyses of events) and have tolerated its pro-palestinian bias. But this new article is so vile, I almost lost my breakfast.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/07/secret-hamas-attack-orders-israel-gaza-7-october

it is a very pro Hamas article about the attack october 7 ("a precise plan") . How can they write this!!! It is praising the organisatorial success of Hamas on that day, also it is always - seemingly to see both sides- citing some Hamas bullshit like:

"Hamas equipped attackers with GoPro cameras to capture images of the attack. Some of the gruesome images recovered by Israeli investigators show sadistic mistreatment and murder. An official montage of such footage, released by Hamas, shows terrified people pleading for their lives and a pet dog being shot. " A pet dog (!!!)

I am really done. This is so not ok, what are all these terrorist supporters thinking? are they still thinking? I  cannot imagine reading the Guardian again.

 

 

[Craving Peaches]

25 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

"Hamas equipped attackers with GoPro cameras to capture images of the attack. Some of the gruesome images recovered by Israeli investigators show sadistic mistreatment and murder. An official montage of such footage, released by Hamas, shows terrified people pleading for their lives and a pet dog being shot. " A pet dog (!!!)

I don't know if this is just me misreading things because I'm tired, but isn't that criticising Hamas? It's saying that even in their 'official' footage with the more graphic parts removed they still act really sadistically? I don't get the sense they are praising Hamas, or glorifying their actions, but I could have missed something because I'm tired.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Mudguard said:

Sounds like Netanyahu's current plan is that Israel will occupy Gaza indefinitely.

 

So will it turn into another West Bank?

[Varysblackfyre321]

 

1 hour ago, Mudguard said:

Sounds like Netanyahu's current plan is that Israel will occupy Gaza indefinitely.

 

Well at least more officially occupy it. I don’t imagine there’ll be much attempt actually reconciling with the survivors and putting up the necessary public investment. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

Well there's a whole bunch of people held in indefinite detention without any charges, including literal children, so they could start with those.

You know, hostages for hostages?

Pretty sure everyone except Hamas would agree to that. 

30 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't know if this is just me misreading things because I'm tired, but isn't that criticising Hamas? It's saying that even in their 'official' footage with the more graphic parts removed they still act really sadistically? I don't get the sense they are praising Hamas, or glorifying their actions, but I could have missed something because I'm tired.

I guess it just depends on what you focus on, given it's a lengthy article. For example, this stood out to me:

Quote

Hamas has blamed much of the violence on civilians – and atrocities including rape and torture – on “criminals” who followed its attackers. The Israel Defence Forces released an interview with a captured attacker who said the “mission was to kill … anyone we saw”. The attacker then described shooting children.

And:

Quote

Five days after the attack, a Hamas leader claimed it had been a pre-emptive strike launched after the organisation learned that Israeli forces were preparing a major assault on Gaza after the Jewish Sukkot holiday.

It would have been nice to add here that these claims are full of shit. 

[Ran]

The Guardian piece is a little slanted, but mostly the reporting is dispassionate, which isn't a bad thing in itself, and I don't think it means it's praising Hamas. It's also some pretty good summary of what we know about the plans and how they succeeded at such an awful goal.

Though I agree that that last item Tywin cites, in particular, should have been balanced with the reality that Gaza was the last thing on Israel's mind, which is part of why this whole thing worked in the first place. If a major assault was being planned, troops would already have been mobilizing by October 7th, and they were anything but. The Hamas claim doesn't pass the sniff test.

Re: Netanyahu, yes, I mean, there's no way the war stops and the next day someone else is providing security. Israel will have to stay at least for some period of time while things are worked out regarding coalitions or native Gazan leadership or Fatah, and probably for a bit after to insure a smooth transition. But Israelis don't want the responsibility of occupying Gaza, for all the reasons Israel disengaged and ended the occupation in 2005.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Ran

[Craving Peaches]

40 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It would have been nice to add here that these claims are full of shit.

What I don't get is that they say near the start:

Quote

This account of the early moments of the 7 October terrorist attacks in Israel is derived from multiple sources, including meetings with Israeli intelligence officials, experts, sources with direct knowledge of interrogation reports of Hamas fighters captured during the attacks, and material released by Hamas and the Israeli military.

But then we don't see much of the stuff from 'intelligence officials or experts'? Like, wouldn't it have been appropriate to include that after the bit you mentioned?

[Mudguard]

37 minutes ago, Ran said:

Re: Netanyahu, yes, I mean, there's no way the war stops and the next day someone else is providing security. Israel will have to stay at least for some period of time while things are worked out regarding coalitions or native Gazan leadership or Fatah, and probably for a bit after to insure a smooth transition. But Israelis don't want the responsibility of occupying Gaza, for all the reasons Israel disengaged and ended the occupation in 2005.

The last part of the quote seems to rule out self-rule.

Quote

"Those who don't want to continue the way of Hamas," Netanyahu told Muir. "It certainly is not -- I think Israel will, for an indefinite period will have the overall security responsibility because we've seen what happens when we don't have it. When we don't have that security responsibility, what we have is the eruption of Hamas terror on a scale that we couldn't imagine."

Although they don't acknowledge it, they must know that this bombing campaign is creating the next generation of terrorists.  It's not going to be easy to deal with this problem that they have created.  Occupation for the next couple decades to squash down any flare ups of terrorist activity is an approach, but a pretty miserable one for the Palestinian civilians.

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Mudguard said:

Although they don't acknowledge it, they must know that this bombing campaign is creating the next generation of terrorists.

In a scenario when Israel intends to continue it's ongoing policy regarding palestinians, it's directly beneficial for them, because they have been cracking down on less violent and (much) more reasonable liberation movements, all the while propping up radical movements, to have the public not see a ground of cooperation to reconciliate. The dehumanization didn't start with October 7 or Hamas.

[Varysblackfyre321]

36 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

In a scenario when Israel intends to continue it's ongoing policy regarding palestinians, it's directly beneficial for them, because they have been cracking down on less violent and (much) more reasonable liberation movements, all the while propping up radical movements, to have the public not see a ground of cooperation to reconciliate. The dehumanization didn't start with October 7 or Hamas.

It’d be terrible if the west see Israel’s opposition within the region as peaceful and reasonable and intelligent, that makes all the savagery they’d like to get away a bit harder to excuse as just a tragic thing they forced to do.

Though even their supposedly just trying to erase Hamas the steps they’re taking  to procure such a goal seem so horrific that the consequences of it have to be minimized. Whose to say Israel killed 8000+ civilians in its bombing campaign? Whose to say when in the coming months those numbers go into the tens of thousands they’re not mostly due to Hamas misfires(though in such a case one has to wonder about the level of threat Israel is placing on the organization is a tad overblown) 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Heartofice]

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Whose to say when in the coming months those numbers go into the tens of thousands they’re not mostly due to Hamas misfires(though in such a case one has to wonder about the level of threat Israel is placing on the organization is a tad overblown) 

You seem to have tried to minimise the threat of Hamas a few times now. Weird.

[Crixus]

14 hours ago, Zorral said:

So how do you solve the problem of the children suffering horrifically RIGHT THIS FRACKIN' moment from death, horrific burns other wounds?  Which are coming from this non-discriminate bombing by Israel and its denial of aid to them?  Listening right now to a medical team who were attempting to treat these wounds and death from 450 attacks a day.

One way is for Israel to change its behaviors.  Also, how did you miss the atrocities going on in the West Bank described in LRB of Israeli 'settlers' upon the Palestinians living there having been going on in the present, and that means the present BEFORE Oct. 7, and right now too.

 

 

I can answer that:

1. The death count is grossly exaggerated because Hamas - notwithstanding the record of such data being mostly accurate in the past, detailed lists being provided, and third parties confirming it e.g. US, UN etc. In fact, fuck the UN because the Israel rep to the UN says they're constantly being unfair to them, so that must be true, right?

It's also amazing how, despite the media being inundated with tragic, unspeakable accounts and images of children dying, people remain so resolutely unmoved. Must be AI/fake news, amirite? Also begs the question, which many on here have asked, about how many deaths are ok? We know 1,400 are unacceptable - and I agree. But it would seem a few thousand more are fine for some. Unless they are ALL fake numbers. Spoiler: they're not. 

2. All independent relief organisations like the Red Crescent, UN etc. count for jack-shit if they have any Palestinian employees or a basic modicum of empathy for Gaza, basically. The UN has had 80 employees killed so far, but if some were Palestinian, they're probably lying. One can only cite the UN and other agencies when it validates their view.

3. The West Bank problem is small/isolated/notabigdeal/insert ludicrous descriptor of your choice. It can be handwaved along the lines of 'tsk, terrible, anyway...' or claimed to be the fault of a few fringe extremists, despite concrete evidence that the government is aiding them. 

4. History or context doesn't matter. Everything was peachy pre October 7 - any attempts to make sense out of the current horror by referencing the recent past is useless, essentially. Funny how this is applied selectively, though. Apparently some horrors from the last century matter more than others. 

5. When Hamas does it, it is pure evil (agreed) but when the Israeli government does it, it's 'necessary'. The West Bank atrocities are necessary by this yardstick, being supported by said government. So are all the times IDF killed journos or kids, and then lied about it. It was necessary. Good to know. 

6. Gazans should just rise up and throw Hamas out, but the fact Israelis haven't been able to throw that cunt Netanyahu out, despite living in a democratic country rather than an open-air prison, without an external party controlling fundamental shit like water, access, and more, is complicated. 

7. All 'Arabs' support terrorists. This was a special one. Glad to see some of the responses to that gem. 

I freely admit I wrote this with anger, so it has its share of blanket statements. But not too many strawmen, I think, because several posters on here have expressed identical opinions, albeit perhaps not as crassly. 

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

What I don't get is that they say near the start:

But then we don't see much of the stuff from 'intelligence officials or experts'? Like, wouldn't it have been appropriate to include that after the bit you mentioned?

That's can be a great way to burn a source.  Or they've likely just provided background. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

24 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

You seem to have tried to minimise the threat of Hamas a few times now. Weird.

No I haven’t. That’s such bizarre accusation. Is it so unreasonable to note a discrepancy?  That being the claim Hamas being so incompetent to have their rockets and weapons  misfire enough to cause the majority of Gazan deaths  but are still an existential threat to Israel?
I don’t see the logic I’m sorry.
 

[Varysblackfyre321]

35 minutes ago, Crixus said:

Gazans should just rise up and throw Hamas out, but the fact Israelis haven't been able to throw that cunt Netanyahu out, despite living in a democratic country rather than an open-air prison, without an external party controlling fundamental shit like water, access, and more, is complicated. 

If I’m remembering correctly the coalition that kicked Netanyahu’ the last time fell apart because some left wing hardliners opposed an increase in settlements.

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 That being the claim Hamas being so incompetent to have their rockets and weapons  misfire enough to cause the majority of Gazan deaths  but are still an existential threat to Israel?

Both those things can be true. That the one time Hamas managed to get into Israel they butcher a thousand civilians without thought should be enough of a warning about what they might do should they not be stamped out. 

[Daeron the Daring]

50 minutes ago, Crixus said:

The West Bank atrocities are necessary by this yardstick, being supported by said government.

Noo, you can't just put the actions of a single legal entity in the same bag. That's almost like the same people decide to do both, and that would mean the two issues would fall under the same (or at least similar) policies and patterns it operates with, which is clearly not true, because that would mean bad bad things.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Daeron the Daring