Five-Year Anniversary of Fire & Blood

[The Bard of Banefort]

Yes, it’s been five years.

Fire & Blood was released on November 20, 2018. It’s Thanksgiving week in the US, so I have very fond memories of reading FnB during long car rides to visit different relatives. It was such a pleasure to read, and I can only hope that we’ll get some new reading material in the near future.

What was your first impression of FnB? How has it changed since then? Is there anything you wish was done differently?

Let the reminiscing commence! 

[James Steller]

For the most part, I was very impressed with FAB. I like how it was a sort of historical text, just like how The Silmarillion is a sort of religious text. 

I liked the expansions on previous material (Princess and the Queen, Rogue Prince). It was great to let a deep dive on the reign of Jaehaerys. I also liked how people who’d previously been footnotes in TWOIAF (Rogar Baratheon, Unwin Peake, Rhaena Targaryen) became fully fleshed out into characters that we liked or disliked. It’s because of FAB that Aegon III has become one of my all time favourite GRRM characters.

The downside is, predictably, that there wasn’t more material. Aegon the Conqueror remained undeveloped, for example. But really, my appetite for such material about GRRM’s universe could probably fill a series of books in its own right. I hope he doesn’t commit to just two FAB books, because there is so damn much left to explore as it is.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Rhaena was a stand-out for me too, and young Viserys II. It was also confirmation that George can still write great characters, since he hadn’t written much about either of them before then. My favorite chapter is the one on all of J+A’s children, who all felt so distinct and memorable.

Ironically, this also points to one of the big flaws in FnB for me. Despite having published a half-dozen versions of the Dance at this point, I still don’t really feel like I know Daemon or Rhaenyra or Alicent. If George had also written the Dance for the first time in 2017-2018, I think it they would have been more fleshed-out as characters.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

I agree with a lot of what's already been said. I enjoyed the formatting of FAB. I love how GRRM replicates how we have to take ancient historians with a grain of salt due to their own biases and limitations. Some of his most interesting characters are in FAB. They drew very strong reactions from me, both in a positive way (Corlys Velaryon, Ben Blackwood) a negative way (Aegon III, Alicent Hightower), and a mixed way (Tyland Lannister, Daemon Targaryen).

I also think it's a shame that GRRM couldn't make the book longer, but frankly, if he shelved the main series in order to give us more FAB instead, I wouldn't be angry about that. The focus he put on worldbuilding was what hooked me to his writing in the first place. We might find flaws with it, but it's so dense with material and potential, as well as being endlessly debatable. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

15 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I agree with a lot of what's already been said. I enjoyed the formatting of FAB. I love how GRRM replicates how we have to take ancient historians with a grain of salt due to their own biases and limitations. Some of his most interesting characters are in FAB. They drew very strong reactions from me, both in a positive way (Corlys Velaryon, Ben Blackwood) a negative way (Aegon III, Alicent Hightower), and a mixed way (Tyland Lannister, Daemon Targaryen).

I also think it's a shame that GRRM couldn't make the book longer, but frankly, if he shelved the main series in order to give us more FAB instead, I wouldn't be angry about that. The focus he put on worldbuilding was what hooked me to his writing in the first place. We might find flaws with it, but it's so dense with material and potential, as well as being endlessly debatable. 

I think this is becoming a more popular sentiment. We’d rather read something, even if it isn’t Winds, than nothing.

[Gilbert Green]

F&B was an okay book.  I say that with slight reluctance, because I think he ought to have been writing WINDS instead.  But maybe the first dance with the dragons was a practice run for the second.  And maybe his practice writing fake history will help him fast forward through certain slow points in the remaining plot.

[Him of Many Faces]

Fire & Blood does not need to exist. The main series gives enough insight to the Targaryen and Westerosi history already. Fire & Blood just adds details. For example we know from Feast about Maegor and his fights against the Faith and its military orders. We know from Tyrion II in AGoT about Aegon's conquest. And so on. Are details necessary, especially if the details are not definite but vague and dubious like presented by maester Gyldayn? 

It was a fun book to read but definitely not on bar with the 5 ASOIAF novels and 3 Dunk & Egg novellas.

[Craving Peaches]

I was excited to read it at first but I quickly grew bored, and it really put me off the Targaryens (I was a fan of theirs before I read that book). I thought Aegon would be a competent general but he was actually quite incompetent. He puts his army in a losing position then goes and saves them with the dragon rather than just using the dragon to beat the enemies in the first place. Waste of lives. Dragons were boring. I was either apathetic to the Targaryen characters or actively disliked them. I was thinking they should really have been overthrown as soon as they lost the dragons. No one needs to put up with their incest and other supremacist nonsense when they no longer have the cheat code dragons. The best part of the book for me was when the People rose up against the tyrants and killed the bioweapons. 10/10 moment, very inspiring. My favourite characters were Queen Argella, Brandon Snow and the psycho Arryn.

[frenin]

Whereas i was very much indifferent about the whole book, Aegon's regency was without of doubt one of the most entertaining bits i've read in a good long time.

[Ran]

Obviously, I'm unusual in that for the most part F&B is a lot older than 5 years for me, since most of it was written for TWoIaF... so the Jaehaerys material was all new, but everything else was familiar. 

I'm so glad others enjoyed Aegon's regency, and in particular Prince Viserys. It was the thing we always regretted that we had to trim to be so short in TWoIaF, and I just love the contrast between this whip-smart, clever prince and the man he'll later appear to become based on George's old description of him to Amok. Assuming that is still operative, I suppose, but I prefer to think it is because it means he'll be going through changes that we don't know the full shape of (though I'm guessing Larra abandoning him was one part of it). 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

46 minutes ago, Ran said:

Obviously, I'm unusual in that for the most part F&B is a lot older than 5 years for me, since most of it was written for TWoIaF... so the Jaehaerys material was all new, but everything else was familiar. 

This is what I was thinking as well. Fire and Blood is on my phone (in ebook form) so I did purchase it, but I honestly...can't remember much of an impact. Now, TWoIaF, that one I freaking loved. I still have that gigantic ass book, but might sell it sadly...it's so big and is taking way too much space in my luggage as I'm about to move...but also I do love it. Maybe I have to make room, lol. Also, I literally was reading it constantly when I got it, and I distinctly remember my coworker making fun of me so much over that book. 

[Canon Claude]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I was excited to read it at first but I quickly grew bored, and it really put me off the Targaryens (I was a fan of theirs before I read that book). I thought Aegon would be a competent general but he was actually quite incompetent. He puts his army in a losing position then goes and saves them with the dragon rather than just using the dragon to beat the enemies in the first place. Waste of lives. Dragons were boring. I was either apathetic to the Targaryen characters or actively disliked them. I was thinking they should really have been overthrown as soon as they lost the dragons. No one needs to put up with their incest and other supremacist nonsense when they no longer have the cheat code dragons. The best part of the book for me was when the People rose up against the tyrants and killed the bioweapons. 10/10 moment, very inspiring. My favourite characters were Queen Argella, Brandon Snow and the psycho Arryn.

It took you until FAB to be put off by the Targaryens?

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

It took you until FAB to be put off by the Targaryens?

I didn't know that much about them before...

[Canon Claude]

20 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I didn't know that much about them before...

Fair, heh. I just never liked the Targs. TWOIAF gave me plenty of reasons to dislike them, and FAB only confirmed that the people of Westeros should have wiped them out when they had the chance. 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

TWOIAF gave me plenty of reasons to dislike them,

I've not read that so maybe that's why it took me longer to go off them.

2 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

and FAB only confirmed that the people of Westeros should have wiped them out when they had the chance. 

Yep.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

13 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Fair, heh. I just never liked the Targs. TWOIAF gave me plenty of reasons to dislike them, and FAB only confirmed that the people of Westeros should have wiped them out when they had the chance. 

The group of people who I was like “why does anyone put up with them” after TWoIaF are the Iron Islanders. Their history is literally just annoying the other Kingdoms, never actually allying with any of those Kingdoms or trading nicely with them, and generally being a nuisance to the other cultures of Westeros. The fact that the Iron Islands has never been conquered and made into a vassal state by any of the larger kingdoms just makes no sense. Robert/Eddard almost casually smashed Balon Greyjoy, and I just don’t get why this didn’t happen a long time with a permanent occupying force. 

[VisenyaTargaryen]

Being a Targaryen fan and loyalist, I really loved F&B to the point where I'm more excited about the second volume than I am about Winds.

What I loved the most:

- The chapters about Jaehaerys' kids. Each of them were memorable even if they weren't as developed as I wish they were. I could read a couple of chapters about each one of them, I think, especially Viserra and Baelon.

- Rhaena's entire character development. I wish every other character had gotten the same "care" that she got, because her arc was so well done. She was definitely the best character in the book for me, even if most folks didn't find her very likable as a person.

- Viserys II and his relationship with his brother ❤️ He's one of the main reasons why I can't wait for F&B Vol 2! Such a fascinating character! Too bad he got grumpy so early in life.

- The Velaryons and their relationship with the Targaryens. I was pleasantly surprised to see how prominent and loyal they used to be. Too bad they became almost irrelevant and don't appear much in ASOIAF.

- More info about the dragons. The Canibal was my favorite.

- The fact that the Targaryen women were often more interesting than male characters, despite them not holding positions of power. Sure, I wish we had gotten more about Rhaenys The Queen Who Never Was, Jocelyn Baratheon, etc. and that GRRM had given a better story to Alyssa Targaryen (I hated the tomboy-to-trad transition and her dying in childbirth). But overall I'm quite happy with the way George wrote them.

What I didn't like so much:

- Aegon's conquest and reign were repetitive and boring, and we didn't get much more info about him or his sisters. I wish I had more of an idea of how they were as people. And since Visenya is my favorite, I was more disappointed, especially when the few additions we had about her were negative and, imo, made her less of the grey character that I thought she would be.

- Daemon, despite being one of my top 3 characters (along with Visenya and Bloodraven) also wasn't as fleshed out as I expected. George says he's also his favorite and that he's very grey, but the book made him too dark, imo. I wanted to hear more about his good side and motivations. Still love him, though.

- I liked Elissa Farman, although not as much as most people, but I wish her adventures weren't interspersed with the rest of the story. It's just a minor thing that irritated me a bit as I was reading the book.

[Canon Claude]

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

The group of people who I was like “why does anyone put up with them” after TWoIaF are the Iron Islanders. Their history is literally just annoying the other Kingdoms, never actually allying with any of those Kingdoms or trading nicely with them, and generally being a nuisance to the other cultures of Westeros. The fact that the Iron Islands has never been conquered and made into a vassal state by any of the larger kingdoms just makes no sense. Robert/Eddard almost casually smashed Balon Greyjoy, and I just don’t get why this didn’t happen a long time with a permanent occupying force. 

Conquering a region isn't as easy as it looks. All across history, there have been cultures which steadfastly resisted domination and endured. The British tried to colonise Ireland, and they only managed to keep a quarter of it. Afghanistan resisted invasion after invasion, they're still there. And it's not easy to wipe out an entire culture, you'd have to kill everyone on the Iron Islands to do it. Who's going to go to each island and systematically slaughter every person there? Eddard's not going to do that, not even Robert would be dumb enough to try. 

Also, to be fair, the Ironborn did have periods where they put an emphasis on trade. House Hoare, for all their tyrannical cruelty, did at least see the sense in dragging the Ironborn kicking and screaming away from the Old Way.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Canon Claude

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

15 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Conquering a region isn't as easy as it looks. All across history, there have been cultures which steadfastly resisted domination and endured. The British tried to colonise Ireland, and they only managed to keep a quarter of it. Afghanistan resisted invasion after invasion, they're still there. And it's not easy to wipe out an entire culture, you'd have to kill everyone on the Iron Islands to do it. Who's going to go to each island and systematically slaughter every person there? Eddard's not going to do that, not even Robert would be dumb enough to try. 

Also, to be fair, the Ironborn did have periods where they put an emphasis on trade. House Hoare, for all their tyrannical cruelty, did at least see the sense in dragging the Ironborn kicking and screaming away from the Old Way.

Oh that is why I said an occupying force. I was thinking kind of like Korea was to China through much of history. Not officially conquered, but often paying taxes to stop the Chinese from invading. I don't know as much British history (my focus was Asia for my history major) but I always thought Ireland and Korea seemed to kind of have a similar history as often conquered peoples who managed to keep their own identity despite that. 

To me the Iron Islands seem in a similar weak position, and yet the Westerosi kind of leave them alone UNLESS they are being invaded by them. Why not invade the other direction? There isnt much of value in the Iron Islands...but that's why you don't permanently conquer them, just make them a vassal state or require them to field a navy for you with promise of not invading them. I would think the Westerlands or Riverlands or even the Reach could benefit a lot from that kind of situation. Ireland may never have been fully conquered...but it was invaded by Britain...like many many times. And Ireland itself wasn't launching invasions of Britain with no reprisals....repeatedly, for most of its history (which seems to be the case for the Iron Islands)

Edited November 23, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall