Original AFFC Outline

[BlackLightning]

49 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

 Why would Cersei send a fake skull?  

1. Because Cersei is a terrible person
2. Because Ser Robert Strong is Gregor Clegane

I think in the 2003 outline, GRRM wanted the Robert Strong=Gregor Clegane" formula to be indisputable. In the actual novels, I think GRRM is doing something slightly different. Like Robert Strong's body is probably still Gregor Clegane's but his head might be that of Falyse Stokeworth or Robb Stark...most definitely Falyse Stokeworth. More scandalous and more people are apt to recognize the head

[The Bard of Banefort]

Yeah, I think it’s just confirmation that it’s not Gregor’s skull. So I guess we can discount those theories about Robb’s head having been planted on Robert Strong’s body haha.

One theory I’ve been kicking around for a while now is that the wretched Sansa vs. Arya feud from S7 may be a variation of what happens in the books. Realistically, Bran should take precedence over Sansa. Sansa’s been acting as a mother figure to Sweetrobin, so it’s possible she’ll act as some kind of guardian for him in the beginning (this is assuming Jon has relegated some of his duties to his siblings like in the show). Once Bran comes of age, however, Sansa’s power would diminish, and that’s definitely not what LF wants (especially if he plans on repeating the kill-the-husband-marry-the-widow scheme he used on Lysa with Sansa). So it may be that what eventually pushes Sansa to turn on LF is to protect Bran, who will never truly be safe as long LF lives. In retrospect, it’s kind of silly that LF was so concerned with Arya on the show and not Bran, who is a much bigger threat to his plans.

 

On 12/2/2023 at 3:05 PM, sifth said:

So the time line for Kevan's death feels a little sloppy to me, knowing this. So Kevan travels back to the Rock, while at the Rock gets a letter asking him to take over as Regent, he accepts and travels back to Kings Landing, sets up his regency by making Mace Hand of the king, has Randyll Tarly save Margaery and does all this before visiting Cersei in her prison cell. So just how long was Cersei locked up for? Are the Rock and Kings Landing very close to each other?

One of the biggest oversights of this series is how fast everyone travels. It would have fixed the timeline issue if it took longer to travel the country.

[sifth]

14 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

 

One of the biggest oversights of this series is how fast everyone travels. It would have fixed the timeline issue if it took longer to travel the country.

Truth be told I think the series could use some more fast travel. Tyrion's adventure in the east to get to Dany, took way too long.

[The Bard of Banefort]

22 minutes ago, sifth said:

Truth be told I think the series could use some more fast travel. Tyrion's adventure in the east to get to Dany, took way too long.

We don’t need to witness all of it though. There should be weeks-long breaks between chapters.

[Gilbert Green]

These notes are shorthand notes to self.  Likely indecipherable to us because too much is left out.  For instance, "take north" could be mean "take so-and-so north" or "take something north".    Or it could mean "take political control of the North."

[Sandy Clegg]

17 hours ago, Ran said:

Because Ser Robert Strong = Gregor Clegane.

EDIT: (For a 'fake' Gregor skull sent to the Martells) .... we would need a skull from someone who is:

a) dead

b) likely to have a skull as big as Gregor Clegane

Is this the mystery George is setting up?

Well, Ser Duncan the Tall's skull wouldn't have been hard to dig up, assuming it survived Summerhall's fires sufficiently intact. Wouldn't he have had his own tomb somewhere, as a distinguished Kingsguard? At a pinch, his skull might have served as a substitute, as he was famously a big lad. And it's likely he would have had plenty of missing teeth, with his Fleabottom style of rough-house fighting as seen in the Dunk & Egg novellas ...

Maybe Dunk did eventually make it back to Dorne, albeit in a roundabout way!

[The hairy bear]

1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said:

b) likely to have a skull as big as Gregor Clegane

Why would the skull need to be of the same size? It's not like anyone will see what's under Robert Strong's helmet, and the guy has made a vow of silence.

As suggested above, it's entirely possible that the head is from Falyse Stokeworth.

[Sandy Clegg]

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Why would the skull need to be of the same size? It's not like anyone will see what's under Robert Strong's helmet, and the guy has made a vow of silence.

As suggested above, it's entirely possible that the head is from Falyse Stokeworth.

I meant for the skull sent to Dorne. Isn't the assumption here that Robert Strong kept Gregor's head, and a fake one was sent to Dorne?

[The hairy bear]

Ah OK.

To clarify, the assumption is that George's original idea, as portrayed in his outline, is that Robert Strong was just the reanimated body of Gregor Clegane. Then, Cersei had to send a fake head to Dorne (a head that would be distinct from Gregor's because of a missing teeth in either of the skulls).

But it's almost certain that this is not the idea that George ultimately went with. In the published versions, the skull in Dorne is Gregor's and Robert Strong is some kind of Frankenstein's monster with parts from multiple dead bodies.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

17 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

1. Because Cersei is a terrible person
2. Because Ser Robert Strong is Gregor Clegane

I think in the 2003 outline, GRRM wanted the Robert Strong=Gregor Clegane" formula to be indisputable. In the actual novels, I think GRRM is doing something slightly different. Like Robert Strong's body is probably still Gregor Clegane's but his head might be that of Falyse Stokeworth or Robb Stark...most definitely Falyse Stokeworth. More scandalous and more people are apt to recognize the head

Cersei's ego is a bit of a wildcard.  I don't think she needs the head- as you say, Lady Stokeowrth's or Robb's or Robert's or anyone's who's been suggested could do the trick (I'm really hoping for an awkward, public Falyse reveal). So it seems to me that it would be an unnecessary risk to send the Martels anything but the head they'd demanded.  Cersei is if anything the queen of unnecessary risk though, so she could have done it simply to not let Doran get his way.  If she was thinking though, she should have sent the right skull.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

18 hours ago, Ran said:

Because Ser Robert Strong = Gregor Clegane.

WHAT?!? 

[BlackLightning]

18 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, I think it’s just confirmation that it’s not Gregor’s skull. So I guess we can discount those theories about Robb’s head having been planted on Robert Strong’s body haha.

One theory I’ve been kicking around for a while now is that the wretched Sansa vs. Arya feud from S7 may be a variation of what happens in the books. Realistically, Bran should take precedence over Sansa. Sansa’s been acting as a mother figure to Sweetrobin, so it’s possible she’ll act as some kind of guardian for him in the beginning (this is assuming Jon has relegated some of his duties to his siblings like in the show). Once Bran comes of age, however, Sansa’s power would diminish, and that’s definitely not what LF wants (especially if he plans on repeating the kill-the-husband-marry-the-widow scheme he used on Lysa with Sansa). So it may be that what eventually pushes Sansa to turn on LF is to protect Bran, who will never truly be safe as long LF lives. In retrospect, it’s kind of silly that LF was so concerned with Arya on the show and not Bran, who is a much bigger threat to his plans.

I too believe that the Stark kids are not going to become a big happy family again after they reunite. I think that they will be a strong, loving cohesive unit by the end of the series but nah...they are going to have some issues. They all have changed so much and the chances that they will misunderstand or offend each other will be high.

Rickon (who I firmly believe will survive the series) probably doesn't even speak the Common Tongue anymore. And he was getting really out-of-control before Winterfell had fallen.

As for your point about Sansa and Bran, YOU ARE 100% correct.

Littlefinger would be concerned about Arya. But Bran (and Rickon) would be his number 1 and number 2 priority...especially if their status as skinchangers becomes public knowledge. Plus, it's a nice callback to the beginning of the series where you had villains slinking about Winterfell trying to hurt Bran.

Princess Anne of France ruled as regent for her younger brother Charles VIII. I don't think Bran will have a regent, but I do think Sansa will become either the first female Hand of the King or she will have a very powerful political position at court.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Sansa's future is so hard to predict, which is probably why fans spend so much time theorizing about her. I think most people agree that she'll make it back to Winterfell at some point, but it's hard to tell what the road there will be like. The show was no help, given that they merged her with a different character. What's "fresh" is her S7 plot, which could have just been an invention, but as I explained before, I think it may very well have been based on something George has planned for her, and we're definitely seeing her take on a maternal role in the story now.

One reason why I don't think Harry is long for the world is because GRRM almost never mentions him when he talks about important characters who were missing from the show. He mentions Arianne and Quentyn, the Tyrell brothers, Jeyne Poole, Aegon and JonCon, and sometimes Strong Belwas. It's why I've also started to suspect that Val may not be that important in the grand scheme of things either.

The part I find so curious is that Sansa (like Sam and Bran) does hardly anything in AFFC/ADWD. At the beginning of Feast she's at the top of the mountain, and then by the end of Dance she's at the bottom of it. It seems like she and a few other characters are treading water while other characters get into place. There are lots of factors that could effect her storyline: Jaime and Brienne running into Stoneheart, Jon's death (and presumed resurrection), Cersei's downfall, Aegon's landing in Westeros. Whether she goes north or south, she'll have to go through the Riverlands, and there's plenty going on there. And--assuming this twenty-year-old hint is still in play--GRRM has suggested that LF's lack of an army will become a problem for him the Riverlands.

As for Bran and Sam, neither of them have anything revealed in this outline. They're not usually regarded as the most tantalizing characters, but the fact that we've seen so little of them in the last two books is probably an indicator that they're getting into place for something big (Euron? Hold the door?)

[Mithras]

Ossifer Plumm and his six feet long cock was not introduced just for shits and giggles. It should be somehow related to the current story. Sweetrobin's unresemblance to Jon Arryn also means something. LF will have Harry killed during the tourney. Soon after Harry dies, LF will suggest Sansa to get pregnant and pass the child as Harry's bastard. Of course LF will want to be the sperm donor himself. This bastard will be one legitimization away from inheriting more than half of Westeros in the long run. And the Realm is full of desperate monarchs trying to win support. Legitimization would not be an issue at all, considering that even Ramsay got one. Perhaps LF might even confess that he is the true father of Sweetrobin while trying to convince Sansa to the act.

[The Bard of Banefort]

17 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Ossifer Plumm and his six feet long cock was not introduced just for shits and giggles. It should be somehow related to the current story. Sweetrobin's unresemblance to Jon Arryn also means something. LF will have Harry killed during the tourney. Soon after Harry dies, LF will suggest Sansa to get pregnant and pass the child as Harry's bastard. Of course LF will want to be the sperm donor himself. This bastard will be one legitimization away from inheriting more than half of Westeros in the long run. And the Realm is full of desperate monarchs trying to win support. Legitimization would not be an issue at all, considering that even Ramsay got one. Perhaps LF might even confess that he is the true father of Sweetrobin while trying to convince Sansa to the act.

There’s just one problem: Sansa is still legally married to Tyrion. Just like with Cersei and Rhaenyra (and Elaena), any child she has will technically be his, logistics be damned.

 

Even if the Ashford Tourney Theory is just an oddly specific coincidence,* I still can’t imagine that LF wouldn’t try to make her Aegon’s queen. It’s basically the same thing as his plot to marry her to Harry, only with an even greater prize. 

*Someone should really just ask GRRM about this at one of his Q-and-As so we can put it to rest already. If it’s true, he’ll act coy and tell us to keep reading (like with Lemongate). If it’s not, he’ll just be confused (like with Preston Jacobs’ other theories haha).

[Mithras]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There’s just one problem: Sansa is still legally married to Tyrion. Just like with Cersei and Rhaenyra (and Elaena), any child she has will technically be his, logistics be damned.

LF wouldn't be concerned about that. If he is able to get a legitimization, he should also be able to get an annulment. What matters most is to have the child in the first place and create a fait accompli. Legality will follow that. 

There is a historical precedent that Lord Hightower wanted to marry his widow stepmother (Lady Sam Tarly) but the High Septon didnot approve it and declared it as a form of incest. But they did not mind him and kept on living and made six children. 13 years later a new High Septon was elected and he reversed the decision of his predecessor. The High Septon allowed the marriage to take place and their 6 children were retroactively declared legitimate.

[Hippocras]

23 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

EDIT: (For a 'fake' Gregor skull sent to the Martells) .... we would need a skull from someone who is:

a) dead

b) likely to have a skull as big as Gregor Clegane

Is this the mystery George is setting up?

Well, Ser Duncan the Tall's skull wouldn't have been hard to dig up, assuming it survived Summerhall's fires sufficiently intact. Wouldn't he have had his own tomb somewhere, as a distinguished Kingsguard? At a pinch, his skull might have served as a substitute, as he was famously a big lad. And it's likely he would have had plenty of missing teeth, with his Fleabottom style of rough-house fighting as seen in the Dunk & Egg novellas ...

Maybe Dunk did eventually make it back to Dorne, albeit in a roundabout way!

The head is a dwarf head. That seemed obvious to me in the books but reading this thread makes it clear not everyone saw what I did.

People with dwarfism very often have larger than normal heads. Tyrion's has been specifically described as large, and so have the heads of a couple of other dwarfs we have met in the series.

Cersei has put a bounty on Tyrion's head, and many people have tried to collect, murdering random dwarfs all over Westeros and beyond, including Oppo, and trying to pass off the heads as Tyrion's. The head Cersei sent to Dorne was simply one of the ones that had previously been "offered" to her as "Tyrion".

[The Bard of Banefort]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There’s just one problem: Sansa is still legally married to Tyrion. Just like with Cersei and Rhaenyra (and Elaena), any child she has will technically be his, logistics be damned.

 

Even if the Ashford Tourney Theory is just an oddly specific coincidence,* I still can’t imagine that LF wouldn’t try to make her Aegon’s queen. It’s basically the same thing as his plot to marry her to Harry, only with an even greater prize. 

*Someone should really just ask GRRM about this at one of his Q-and-As so we can put it to rest already. If it’s true, he’ll act coy and tell us to keep reading (like with Lemongate). If it’s not, he’ll just be confused (like with Preston Jacobs’ other theories haha).

@Ran What do you think of the Ashford Tourney Theory? Do you think it’s legit or just a coincidence?

[Springwatch]

Quote

Arya: End with her first gift. 1. Joy of giving. 2. Mercy at the Gate. ④

Interesting! The Hound told it true: killing is the sweetest thing. Ned really did need to cleanse himself afterwards.

Not Arya though, not that we see, though it could be a feeling that grows with time. George soft-pedals the concept in her feast chapter (first posting with Brusco); it appears like this:

Quote

"Ser Gregor," she chanted, as she crossed a stone bridge supported by four arches. From the center of its span she could see the masts of ships in the Ragman's Harbor. "Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei." Rain began to fall. Arya turned her face up to let the raindrops wash her cheeks, so happy she could dance. "Valar morghulis," she said, "valar morghulis, valar morghulis."

(Arya is very like her namesake Cat when she turns her face to the rain like that.)

[Lord Varys]

Guys, the Martells also wonder about Gregor's head in ADwD. There it is more subtle as the issue is it being a skull and the question raised is why Cersei would go through the trouble of cleaning it into a skull rather than giving them a recognizable head preserved by tar, say.

The idea that Ser Robert has Falyse's head is funny but not likely, I think. Gregor's body rotted away due to the poison, yes, but his head wasn't affected when we last heard of him, so while some parts of Senelle and Falyse went into him I doubt it were heads. Rather blood, flesh, and perhaps parts of arms and legs.