Sandy Clegg Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: So I do have one question, when/where was he originally planning on placing Tyrion “witness to incest”? Maybe Tyrion tries to find such a witness, rather than being the witness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zionius Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 Yes, and the headlines on page 3 describes the endings for each POV. "Cliffhanger with Dany" corresponds to "4. Dany", ie. AFFC Tyrion VII. Then he decided to only include 5 Tyrion chapters, so the next headline is "Captured by Ser Jorah", corresponds to "2. Volantis". No idea about incest either. Frey family reunion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 (edited) You know what I love the most about the outline, is the fact that their are no travel chapters. The pacing is very similar to the first book. Also anyone notice there are no Ironborn chapters? Edited December 2, 2023 by sifth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted December 2, 2023 Author Share Posted December 2, 2023 5 hours ago, sifth said: You know what I love the most about the outline, is the fact that their are no travel chapters. The pacing is very similar to the first book. Also anyone notice there are no Ironborn chapters? This may have been back when George was planning on doing an extended prologue about the kingsmoot. Since Dany, Jon, etc. are included in this outline, I’m guessing this was also back when he was still planning on doing a time skip. (Granted, Bran isn’t mentioned either). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 8 hours ago, sifth said: You know what I love the most about the outline, is the fact that their are no travel chapters. The pacing is very similar to the first book. Also anyone notice there are no Ironborn chapters? Arms of the Kraken was a collection of ironborn chapters published in the Dragon magazine issue #305 (March 2003). It included 4 chapters in their draft forms: Aeron I (The Prophet), Asha I (The Kraken’s Daughter), Victarion I (The Iron Captain), and Aeron II (The Priest). Check the 2003-2004 partial manuscript chapter lists below for the progression of the material. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSQJj1MMr--OsVmCUiIEyWV7jwoBDnFTbA5-1sVbDcZTjUYmKmmuN0ruPApPUEdo98EglqhiKHKRNYJ/pubhtml# The Bard of Banefort and sifth 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted December 2, 2023 Author Share Posted December 2, 2023 (edited) On 11/30/2023 at 10:36 AM, Frey family reunion said: So I do have one question, when/where was he originally planning on placing Tyrion “witness to incest”? That may be what Tyrion is planning on offering Dany (or Aegon) in exchange for his safety. He can confirm Tommen’s bastardy. That said, dropping that bit probably makes sense, since Tyrion still appears to have somewhat warm feelings towards his niece and nephew in ADWD. Now time for the real question: how on Earth did someone get their hands on this outline? Edited December 2, 2023 by The Bard of Banefort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said: Now time for the real question: how on Earth did someone get their hands on this outline? Arnold is a serious collector, and indicates he got it from someone in the tight-knit Santa Fe writing scene. My guess (repeat, guess) is that George was bouncing around ideas with other writers, sketching out his early ideas for AFfC, and basically just left the notebook at the house of whoever was holding the get-together after having settled some ideas in his mind. Edited December 2, 2023 by Ran The Bard of Banefort and The hairy bear 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 Does anyone else find it strange that some of these ideas actually happen on the tv show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Alhazred Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 I knew you guys would be goin over this. Just here to read all the deferent takes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Alhazred Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 11 minutes ago, sifth said: Does anyone else find it strange that some of these ideas actually happen on the tv show? He may have given it to D&D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, M.Alhazred said: He may have given it to D&D. Yeah, D&D definitely had access to early drafts. But I still don't understand why they decided to go with much of that stuff if GRRM himself thought that it was inferior to the published material. Edited December 2, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: Yeah, D&D definitely had access to early drafts. But I still don't understand why they decided to go with much of that stuff if GRRM himself thought that it was inferior to the published material. I like AFFC a lot as a novel, but often wonder if it has a lot of pacing issues. For example a lot of chapters are dedicated to Tywin's death. Don't get me wrong Tyrwin was a great villain, but it feels rather strange that the plot would stall for so long, after he died. Just look at how little time was given to Joff's death in comparison and he was a king; Robert as well. Was the show suppose to spend two or three episodes, with the Lannisters just dealing with Tywin's death, like they did in the books? Edited December 2, 2023 by sifth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Alhazred Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 10 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: Yeah, D&D definitely had access to early drafts. But I still don't understand why they decided to go with much of that stuff if GRRM himself thought that it was inferior to the published material. He didn't keep the stuff straight. Is the best explanation I can come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 Looks like Kevan was originally suppose to die at Casterly Rock. What a strange outline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, sifth said: Looks like Kevan was originally suppose to die at Casterly Rock. What a strange outline. GRRM seemed to have several different plans for Kevan. First he was supposed to be captured by the Brotherhood, and then die at the Rock. Him being killed by Varys bas definitely the best choice, though. Edited December 2, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: GRRM seemed to have several different plans for Kevan. First he was supposed to be captured by the Brotherhood, and then die at the Rock. Him being killed by Varys bas definitely the best choice, though. So the time line for Kevan's death feels a little sloppy to me, knowing this. So Kevan travels back to the Rock, while at the Rock gets a letter asking him to take over as Regent, he accepts and travels back to Kings Landing, sets up his regency by making Mace Hand of the king, has Randyll Tarly save Margaery and does all this before visiting Cersei in her prison cell. So just how long was Cersei locked up for? Are the Rock and Kings Landing very close to each other? Edited December 2, 2023 by sifth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted December 4, 2023 Share Posted December 4, 2023 On 12/2/2023 at 12:33 PM, The Bard of Banefort said: I think the missing teeth indicates that it isn’t the Mountain’s skull. Who else could have a skull that big, though? On 12/2/2023 at 9:05 PM, sifth said: So just how long was Cersei locked up for? It really does seem like she has been in the dungeon for a few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted December 4, 2023 Share Posted December 4, 2023 On 11/28/2023 at 11:50 AM, James Steller said: The Dorne note doesn’t make sense: why do the Mountain’s teeth matter? Because the skull given to the Martells is a fake If the Mountain was known to have a unique set of teeth, then a skull with a regular, nondescript set of teeth would mean that the Mountain is still alive and that the Lannisters are playing games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted December 4, 2023 Share Posted December 4, 2023 2 hours ago, BlackLightning said: Because the skull given to the Martells is a fake If the Mountain was known to have a unique set of teeth, then a skull with a regular, nondescript set of teeth would mean that the Mountain is still alive and that the Lannisters are playing games. Why would Cersei send a fake skull? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted December 4, 2023 Share Posted December 4, 2023 15 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said: Why would Cersei send a fake skull? Because Ser Robert Strong = Gregor Clegane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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