Israel - Hamas war XIV

[fionwe1987]

I really don't understand the folks who make the "this is the only way" argument about the staggering civilian losses, and violations of international law.

Are we really saying that "this is the only way" is an acceptable reason to violate legal and moral proscriptions? If so, plenty of terrorists can make similar claims. They often don't have the firepower and military might to properly declare war and choose inhumane actions as their "only option". 

Why is it ok for a state to do this, if it is not ok for the terrorists to? 

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Dude, it was not who I was commenting on. Call out anything that piece of shit says. My point is stop citing fringe figures. 

No one has cited that mayor you keep harping about for the last few pages, except you yourself. There are quotes from the Finance Minister, the Intelligence Minister and the Prime Minister, and yet here you are blustering about the obscure mayor. Why? Address the elephant in the room, instead of the mouse several blocks away. 

[Zorral]

45 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Why is it ok for a state to do this, if it is not ok for the terrorists to? 

Particularly as it won't work and will make things even worse for Israel.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

52 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Why is it ok for a state to do this, if it is not ok for the terrorists to? 

Stop bypassing that Hamas is an elected governing body of a place seeking to be a state. 

51 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

No one has cited that mayor you keep harping about for the last few pages, except you yourself. There are quotes from the Finance Minister, the Intelligence Minister and the Prime Minister, and yet here you are blustering about the obscure mayor. Why? Address the elephant in the room, instead of the mouse several blocks away. 

Yes, cite them. Not meaningless people who represent tiny constituencies. 

Now, back to your original point, should Hamas exist, and if so, should it be legitimized? Cause if the answer is no, how do you plan on getting rid of them? 

[fionwe1987]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Stop bypassing that Hamas is an elected governing body of a place seeking to be a state. 

Huh? I am not. I don't think it makes any difference to my question though.

And this is utterly rich coming from someone repeatedly refusing to acknowledge that Ministers in a government are not mayors of small towns, and continuing to ignore their calls for ethnic cleansing. 

17 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Yes, cite them. Not meaningless people who represent tiny constituencies.

They've been cited. Repeatedly. The only one citing the meaningless folks is you. As a transparent and disgusting attempt at distracting from calls for ethnic cleansing high in the Israeli government. 

17 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Now, back to your original point, should Hamas exist, and if so, should it be legitimized? Cause if the answer is no, how do you plan on getting rid of them? 

By not giving them aid and allowing them to get funded for years when it suited me?

Edited January 8 by fionwe1987

[Tears of Lys]

Wouldn't it seem to be Israel's better course of action in its efforts to eliminate Hamas to start with its leaders?  Well, apparently Saleh al-Arouri, a top Hamas official, was recently assassinated in Lebanon.  Israel hasn't officially claimed responsibility, but it certainly is highly suspicious.    

Unfortunately, this situation has led to fears of retaliation from Hezbollah and escalation in the region.  

You would think the mass killings of civilian Palestinians would be of more concern, wouldn't you? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

Huh? I am not. I don't think it makes any difference to my question though.

And this is utterly rich coming from someone repeatedly refusing to acknowledge that Ministers in a government are not mayors of small towns, and continuing to ignore their calls for ethnic cleansing. 

When have I done that? All I've said is ignore the most extreme of extreme people.

Quote

They've been cited. Repeatedly. The only one citing the meaningless folks is you. As a transparent and disgusting attempt at distracting from calls for ethnic cleansing high in the Israeli government. 

I was never the first to cite them, just point out they're nothing and use like basic Google searches. If you're posting about what a mayor of town with less than 2,000 people said you're clearly not looking things up.

Quote

By not giving them aid and allowing them to get funded for years when it suited me?

That answer doesn't make sense. Yesterday's problem's aren't today's. No one in this thread has denied Israel helped Hamas to some extent for their own perceived benefit. And they were clearly wrong for doing so. That's why the people at the top of the government have to go. But that doesn't address what to do going forward. 

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

When have I done that? All I've said is ignore the most extreme of extreme people.

Yes, that's all you've said. Say something about what the Prime Minister, Finance Minister and Intelligence Minister have said, why don't you? Why the continual focus on the mayor, who no one but you has mentioned for the past 4-5 pages of this thread?

And what of my original question? You've repeatedly derailed the central question of why its ok for Israel to commit massive violence in the name of "there's nothing else to be done". Why does Israel have the right to that excuse, but not Hamas?

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

I was never the first to cite them, just point out they're nothing and use like basic Google searches. If you're posting about what a mayor of town with less than 2,000 people said you're clearly not looking things up.

I never posted about any blasted mayor, dude. I don't even remember anyone else posting it, only you harping on it while chickening out of addressing the calls for ethnic cleansing coming out of the highest reaches of the Israeli government. Screw the mayor, whoever they may be. Answer the actual question at hand. The attempted distraction is ludicrous, and we're not so moronic as to fall for it.

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

That answer doesn't make sense. Yesterday's problem's aren't today's.

Yesterday's problems can cause today's no?

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

No one in this thread has denied Israel helped Hamas to some extent for their own perceived benefit. And they were clearly wrong for doing so. That's why the people at the top of the government have to go. But that doesn't address what to do going forward. 

But they are not gone, and they're advocating ethnic cleansing, and executing a war that is causing massive loss of civilian life. Why should the civilians of Gaza pay so much more than the folks at the top of the Israeli government, when those folks had a much more instrumental hand in creating today's state of affairs? How is "this is all there is" as the way to end Hamas an acceptable excuse from the very fuckwads who propped Hamas up for so long?

I eagerly await a tirade on some unknown mayor as you dance around these questions again. 

[Jace, Extat]

War is not about equity. It is not about fairness or proportional responses. It is about concentrating violence to achieve a political effect. 

I mean for God's sake what would you have them do? You have an enemy polity that just marauded your citizenry, right next door. You cannot do nothing or else you're betraying your people in the face of invasion and kidnapping. War means civillian casualties, that is an ugly fact. 

I think the civillian body count from Iraq is at about 200,000. 

This is just what happens when these weapons are used. 

[fionwe1987]

13 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

War is not about equity. It is not about fairness or proportional responses. It is about concentrating violence to achieve a political effect. 

I mean for God's sake what would you have them do? You have an enemy polity that just marauded your citizenry, right next door. You cannot do nothing or else you're betraying your people in the face of invasion and kidnapping. War means civillian casualties, that is an ugly fact. 

I think the civillian body count from Iraq is at about 200,000. 

This is just what happens when these weapons are used. 

Ok, and can Hamas or a Palestinian citizen say this? And if so, would you agree with them?

Put another way, your framework justifies all kinds of future atrocities and civilian murders in Israel by Hamas or some other Palestinian organization. So when/if those are committed, are you committing to offering this same defense then?

Edited January 8 by fionwe1987

[TrueMetis]

Iraq, famously a well conducted war that achieved what it set out to do.

[Jace, Extat]

44 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Ok, and can Hamas or a Palestinian citizen say this? And if so, would you agree with them?

Put another way, your framework justifies all kinds of future atrocities and civilian murders in Israel by Hamas or some other Palestinian organization. So when/if those are committed, are you committing to offering this same defense then?

No, Israel is defending itself from Hamas. That is why their actions are defensible and Hamas' are not. 

Hamas started this war. 

Edited January 8 by Jace, Extat

[fionwe1987]

31 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

No, Israel is defending itself from Hamas. That is why their actions are defensible and Hamas' are not. 

Hamas started this war. 

So nothing happened for 50 years, and Hamas suddenly started this war?

What you're conveniently ignoring is that the "this is war, what can we do" narrative is flexibly used by bad actors on either side, in this war and others. And if your best defense is "they started it" you deserve the same treatment a kid making that pathetic excuse gets. 

[GrimTuesday]

All Israeli violence is appropriate and justified, but all Palestinian violence is unjustifiable and can only be chalked up to uncivilized barbarism and certainly not in service of any political project or aims outside of baseless antisemitic slaughter.

This is always how the colonizer vs colonized dynamic plays out, especially when the colonized are brown. This of course ignores the violence inherent to colonialism and necessary to its maintenance. The actions of Hamas on October 7th were reprehensible, but to pretend it happened in a vacuum is to perpetuates a fiction, a warped view wherein Israel is attacked for their Jewish identity, rather than because they have given the Palestinian people legitimate reasons to hate them, a reason to associate the Star of David, which is emblazoned on the flag carried by their oppressors, with an oppression that must be resisted. 

This part of the The Rebel, a poem by Irish revolutionary and one of the leaders of the Easter Uprising Pádraig Pearse, sums up perfectly why resistance to occupation will never end,

And I say to my people’s masters: Beware
Beware of the thing that is coming, beware of the risen people
Who shall take what ye would not give.
Did ye think to conquer the people, or that law is stronger than life,
And than men’s desire to be free?
We will try it out with you ye that have harried and held,
Ye that have bullied and bribed.
Tyrants… hypocrites… liars!

[Jace, Extat]

21 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

So nothing happened for 50 years, and Hamas suddenly started this war?

What you're conveniently ignoring is that the "this is war, what can we do" narrative is flexibly used by bad actors on either side, in this war and others. And if your best defense is "they started it" you deserve the same treatment a kid making that pathetic excuse gets. 

Israel pulled out of Gaza, held to a ceasefire for over a decade, and for their trouble their people were butchered and carried away. You're citing things half-a-century gone to excuse terror.

Bad actors can reach logical conclusions. Just because Donald Trump might admit that the sky is blue doesn't mean I need to start reinterpreting the color spectrum. 

Saying "but a badguy might say that" is a pretty naieve way to look at anything. Of course there's a difference between Russia saying they have no choice but to attack Ukraine, and Israel defending itself from Hamas. C'mon now!

 

Eta: improper word use

Edited January 8 by Jace, Extat

[fionwe1987]

3 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Israel pulled out of Gaza, held to a ceasefire for over a decade, and for their trouble their people were butchered and carried away. You're citing vagaries half-a-century gone to excuse terror.

I'm not excusing terror at all. My position is, no matter what the other side did, you do not descend into their level and dish out group punishment, civilian harm, or ethnic cleansing. I just don't throw that judgement selectively, and hold both Israel and Hamas accountable to the same standard. Hamas fails. But so does Israel.

3 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Bad actors can reach logical conclusions. Just because Donald Trump might admit that the sky is blue doesn't mean I need to start reinterpreting the color spectrum. 

The "logical conclusion" here is violation of internation humanitarian law, ethnic cleansing, terrorism, rape and murder, dude. WTF?

3 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Saying "but a badguy might say that" is a pretty naieve way to look at anything. Of course there's a difference between Russia saying they have no choice but to attack Ukraine, and Israel defending itself from Hamas. C'mon now!

What's the difference? I don't see one in your framework.

Edited January 8 by fionwe1987

[GrimTuesday]

3 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Israel pulled out of Gaza, held to a ceasefire for over a decade, and for their trouble their people were butchered and carried away. You're citing vagaries half-a-century gone to excuse terror.

Bad actors can reach logical conclusions. Just because Donald Trump might admit that the sky is blue doesn't mean I need to start reinterpreting the color spectrum. 

Saying "but a badguy might say that" is a pretty naieve way to look at anything. Of course there's a difference between Russia saying they have no choice but to attack Ukraine, and Israel defending itself from Hamas. C'mon now!

It's not vagaries from half a century ago, it's shit that has been happening since 1948 (technically before that too, but it's a convenient starting point) all the way up through October 6th 2023. Just because Israel isn't directly administering Gaza does not remove the fact that Gaza is significantly reliant on Israel in many ways (water, electricity, etc.) and directly controls what goes in and out of Gaza. It also doesn't mean that the IDF doesn't regularly kill Gazans. But beyond Gaza, there is a shared Palestinian identity between Gazans and the West Bank, and the living standard there is brutal. Between the constant IDF surveillance and oppression, settlements being built, Palestinians being dispossessed  in favor of settlers, and the violence enacted by Settlers who are backed by the Israeli state, Palestinians have legitimate grievances that are used to recruit people into Hamas and IJP. Israel's own actions are what radicalizes Palestinians.

And to be clear, this does not excuse the actions taken on October 7th, I firmly believe civilians should be protected at all costs when it comes to actions taken by Palestinian resistance groups or the IDF.

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Israel's own actions are what radicalizes Palestinians.

Sure, but you would accept that it's not just a simple reaction to Israel's actions which radicalises Palestinians, that there might be other elements that add to the radicalisation. 

[GrimTuesday]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

Sure, but you would accept that it's not just a simple reaction to Israel's actions which radicalises Palestinians, that there might be other elements that add to the radicalisation. 

And what, prey tell would you cite as other elements?

[Jace, Extat]

44 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

All Israeli violence is appropriate and justified, but all Palestinian violence is unjustifiable and can only be chalked up to uncivilized barbarism and certainly not in service of any political project or aims outside of baseless antisemitic slaughter.

This is always how the colonizer vs colonized dynamic plays out, especially when the colonized are brown. This of course ignores the violence inherent to colonialism and necessary to its maintenance. The actions of Hamas on October 7th were reprehensible, but to pretend it happened in a vacuum is to perpetuates a fiction, a warped view wherein Israel is attacked for their Jewish identity, rather than because they have given the Palestinian people legitimate reasons to hate them, a reason to associate the Star of David, which is emblazoned on the flag carried by their oppressors, with an oppression that must be resisted. 

 

But they are attacked for their identity. Have you heard that phonecall one of the Hamas, ahem, liberators made to his parents. He's cheering and shouting "I killed ten Jews!" He ain't talkin' about colonizers.

Edited January 8 by Jace, Extat