boltons are sick Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) I found an interesting video which elaborates on some double standards ASOIAF fans have. One of the more interesting comparisons is how similar Catelyn and Cersei are, yet Catelyn is far more liked because she is a Stark, but Cersei is hated because she is a Lannister despite their similarities. Here is a link to the video in question on the exact place where this comparison is made. Do you agree with the person who has made the video or not? Edited January 8 by boltons are sick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 The notion that Cat and Cersei are similar in any way is utterly preposterous. And I know the argument will be made that “both love their children fiercely” but even that is ridiculous since I don’t think Cersei truly loves her children despite using them and her alleged love as justification for many of her evil deeds. wiedzma, apovsic, Craving Peaches and 9 others 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boltons are sick Posted January 8 Author Share Posted January 8 1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said: The notion that Cat and Cersei are similar in any way is utterly preposterous. And I know the argument will be made that “both love their children fiercely” but even that is ridiculous since I don’t think Cersei truly loves her children despite using them and her alleged love as justification for many of her evil deeds. Cersei truly loves her children. And she doesn't use her love for them as justification for her actions, she genuinely commits them because she believes that otherwise her kids are going to die. Not saying it completely justifies her, but most of her actions are not done for the sake of increasing her personal power like many fans believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 13 minutes ago, boltons are sick said: Cersei truly loves her children. And she doesn't use her love for them as justification for her actions, she genuinely commits them because she believes that otherwise her kids are going to die. Not saying it completely justifies her, but most of her actions are not done for the sake of increasing her personal power like many fans believe. Adaneth, LongRider, kissdbyfire and 5 others 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Catelyn has empathy for other people (even members of the Smallfolk). Cersei has none. Queen Sansa Stark, Prince of the North, wiedzma and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Comparing Catelyn and Cersei is laughable at best, disgusting at worst. Catelyn is nowhere near Cersei's level of vileness, cruelty and petiness and has far better and more positive relations with her family than Cersei. Prince of the North, Lord of Raventree Hall, SeanF and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 hour ago, boltons are sick said: Cersei truly loves her children. Can you cite a single passage from any book which demonstrates this? Something other than Cersei saying 'I love my children", please. I can't call any evidence to mind of Cersei's love for anyone but Cersei. As far as I can tell, her kids are just props and mirrors and means to power to her. wiedzma, kissdbyfire, Fencer and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boltons are sick Posted January 8 Author Share Posted January 8 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said: Can you cite a single passage from any book which demonstrates this? Something other than Cersei saying 'I love my children", please. I can't call any evidence to mind of Cersei's love for anyone but Cersei. As far as I can tell, her kids are just props and mirrors and means to power to her. She literally has a dream where she is chained and tortured by Tyrion (who had already bit off her nipples), but during that dream, she doesn't beg for mercy for herself but instead begs Tyrion not to harm her kids. When Tommen is choking on wine, she freaks out and dashes straight to him and when it turns out that he wasn't poisoned, she goes away and starts crying due to how scared she had been. Her overall reaction when Joffrey dies is to cry, beg others to save her son and then she mourns his corpse. When Cersei manages to get Margaery arrested by the Sparrows and she thinks that if Margaery dies, her kids would be safe because she thinks Marg is the younger queen from Maggy's prophecy, she goes to Tommen, gives him a hug, kisses him and when Tommen asks her why she is crying, Cersei thinks that it's because he is saved and nothing bad would happen to him. When she is imprisoned and the High Sparrow says she would be allowed to see her son, she drops tears and the text mentions that they were genuine. And while she is imprisoned in her cell, she has a nice dream where Jaime is her husband and her son Joffrey is still alive and well. I don't think I need to give more examples. Edited January 8 by boltons are sick Springwatch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 hour ago, boltons are sick said: I don't think I need to give more examples. What I would recognize would be an actual sacrifice where Cersei put her children before herself. All you've show are words and dreams and an attempt to ruin her son's marriage to save her own political fortunes. Sure, she tells herself that she did it out of love for Tommen, but would even Tommen believe that? If she loved Tommen she would get her disgraced self out of the capital and give him and his council a chance to escape her crippling shadow. That was never in the cards though, instead she coopted a spot in his bodyguard for a zombie to try and fool the Seven. When she could have shown Joffrey she loved him she showed the jealous, possessive emotions controlling her by having him recalled to Maegor's Holdfast so he could be there to die beside her in defeat. Jim Jones loved like that. If she loved Margery she'd be happy to see her safely out of the capital and in the care of a man like Doran Martell. Same ol Cersei jealousy though and she can't see past the idea of something being taken away from her. She didn't suggest alternatives, or a 'safer' compromise, she just didn't want to lose her little doll. Craving Peaches, Fencer, kissdbyfire and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said: Jim Jones loved like that Yeah, exactly. I find it baffling that some readers fully buy into Cersei's claims about loving her children. As you've said, she loves herself and that's it, all other relationships she has are either transactional or an expression of her narcissism or both. Aejohn the Conqueroo, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9, Fencer and 3 others 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Raventree Hall Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Not only are they not comparable in any way whatsoever, I would guess anyone seriously comparing Catelyn and Cersei as being UNFAIR to Catelyn/biased against Catelyn in some way (or against the Starks in general). In fact, let me just take it another step : I would seriously doubt the intelligence of anyone who compared Catelyn and Cersei's actions in any serious conversation other than to say : Look how great Catelyn is compared to Cersei. P.S. It is very possible this video is talking about the show, and not the books...a show which is probably responsible for the overhate of Catelyn in the fandom (as they really made her character worse as much as they could in the show as compared to the book...and stole many of her best moments/lines and gave it to men around her. Pissed me off) and is also responsible for the concept of Cersei as loving her kids/being a good mom (as she is more obviously loving/caring toward her children in the show, in addition to taking some of Cersei's worse actions and giving them to Joffrey). BUT EVEN the show Catelyn and Cersei aren't comparible, as Catelyn is clearly written as a hero/protaganist, and Cersei as a villain/antagonist. It's how the characters are written, and if you read them in another way...you are reading them wrong, lol. The authors MEANT them to be written this way. Now of course, they are both gray characters...but comparing them is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Craving Peaches, wiedzma, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 I like Catelyn more because she isn't a baby murderer? kissdbyfire, Springwatch, wiedzma and 5 others 6 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fencer Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: I like Catelyn more because she isn't a baby murderer? Don't forget Cersei can also claim childhood friend murderer, and then.... there's also that whole (quite voluntary) incest thing. What really confounds me with discussions like this is that we actually have direct insight into the thinking of both of these characters. There is very little ambiguity with respect to their motivations and thinking--we get a front row seat into their minds as POV characters. Maybe you could make some sort of argument about Joffrey vs. Rob because we never see their thoughts directly, but not Catelyn and Cersei. While I suppose the abomination diffuses that some by largely putting all of the characters on the same level by removing specific POV characters, even then it doesn't take much to understand the differences that even the show was able to articulate. 12 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said: Not only are they not comparable in any way whatsoever, I would guess anyone seriously comparing Catelyn and Cersei as being UNFAIR to Catelyn/biased against Catelyn in some way (or against the Starks in general). In fact, let me just take it another step : I would seriously doubt the intelligence of anyone who compared Catelyn and Cersei's actions in any serious conversation other than to say : Look how great Catelyn is compared to Cersei. In violent agreement there... I think the reading comprehension and ability to understand nuance of someone willing to make this comparison would be highly questionable. Craving Peaches, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 and Lord of Raventree Hall 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Lets see Cersei : murdered childhood friend , multiple kids killed and threatened more if robert took them to court, killed hubby and his pal + started war rather than surrender power and admit a lie, tried to get an margety condemned, handed a loyal ally over to franken gregor as sex toy, ruining kingdom as regent etc Cat: meanie to jon, releases jamie when griefstricken, kill a simple frey Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 On 1/9/2024 at 4:54 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said: Not only are they not comparable in any way whatsoever, I would guess anyone seriously comparing Catelyn and Cersei as being UNFAIR to Catelyn/biased against Catelyn in some way (or against the Starks in general). In fact, let me just take it another step : I would seriously doubt the intelligence of anyone who compared Catelyn and Cersei's actions in any serious conversation other than to say : Look how great Catelyn is compared to Cersei. P.S. It is very possible this video is talking about the show, and not the books...a show which is probably responsible for the overhate of Catelyn in the fandom (as they really made her character worse as much as they could in the show as compared to the book...and stole many of her best moments/lines and gave it to men around her. Pissed me off) and is also responsible for the concept of Cersei as loving her kids/being a good mom (as she is more obviously loving/caring toward her children in the show, in addition to taking some of Cersei's worse actions and giving them to Joffrey). BUT EVEN the show Catelyn and Cersei aren't comparible, as Catelyn is clearly written as a hero/protaganist, and Cersei as a villain/antagonist. It's how the characters are written, and if you read them in another way...you are reading them wrong, lol. The authors MEANT them to be written this way. Now of course, they are both gray characters...but comparing them is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Catelyn is a much lighter shade of grey. But I agree. She’s a vastly more empathetic, compassionate, person than Cersei. Just a few small examples. Catelyn makes a point of tipping sailors personally (lest the captain pocket the money), and wants to build a cairn for Tyrion’s dead servant. Cersei threatens to break blacksmiths’ fingers, stuffs her face while the people go hungry, and laughs about septas “praying for a good raping.” Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 The comparison there is way off, for obvious reasons. There are some parallels in the sense that both women are actually quite ambitious and knowingly put their children into danger (Cat sends Ned and the girls down south, insist that he does that, and fuels his own doubts/paranoia about the Lannisters), but Catelyn certainly does care for her children in a different and more affectionate way than Cersei. She is also a much more empathetic person in general, overcoming her own grief and desire for vengeance for the sake of peace and reconciliation ... something Cersei will never even contemplate doing. Both women also driven to do stupid things out of love for the children. Cersei has her own brother arrested because she thinks he killed Joffrey, Catelyn actually frees Jaime and wants to exchange him against her two daughters (one of which they never heard anything about) when the chances for this are very low, especially without a proper and formal agreement. But it is silly to declare that Cersei doesn't love her children or that conditional love is somehow evil in and of itself. Cersei is a flawed parent, but much better than Robert or Jaime (who is not only a shitty father but also the worst uncle in the entire series). On 1/9/2024 at 12:32 AM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said: What I would recognize would be an actual sacrifice where Cersei put her children before herself. All you've show are words and dreams and an attempt to ruin her son's marriage to save her own political fortunes. Sure, she tells herself that she did it out of love for Tommen, but would even Tommen believe that? If she loved Tommen she would get her disgraced self out of the capital and give him and his council a chance to escape her crippling shadow. That was never in the cards though, instead she coopted a spot in his bodyguard for a zombie to try and fool the Seven. Sorry, but, what is that about? Are you some kind of love measurement device? Did your own parents' love for you involve some kind of sacrifice? Are you willing to sacrifice something to prove to your children or loved ones that you love them? Tommen is not safe with his council nor with the Tyrells. Those assheads murdered Joffrey so Margaery could marry him. If Tommen ever found out about it, this would cause him to actually avenge his elder brother and king. He would be honor-bound to do it. At best we can expect that Tommen would be safe until he finally knocked up and impregnated Margaery (a couple of times) - something Olenna actually wanted to speed up by suggesting that the married couple sleep together. Then they could get rid of him, too, and take over throne and government completely while ensuring that nobody is ever going to punish them for their regicide. We can discuss if Cersei is the ideal regent for Tommen ... but that is a different issue from whether it is her right (and perhaps even her duty) to take care of the interests of her minor child while said child is still a minor. In that sense Cersei is not all that different from Lysa Arryn - who is also not exactly an ideal regent for her son but who definitely loves him and his best interests at heart. In context we can also say that the danger for Tommen increases as his government is dominated more and more by people who are ever more distant relations and in-laws. Kevan would have done his duty, but he actually allowed that Tommen's own mother was paraded naked through the streets of Tommen's capital city. If my grand-uncle did that to my mother I knew what said grand-uncle could expect of me when I came of age. And the Tyrells are much worse, for obvious reasons. On 1/9/2024 at 12:32 AM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said: When she could have shown Joffrey she loved him she showed the jealous, possessive emotions controlling her by having him recalled to Maegor's Holdfast so he could be there to die beside her in defeat. Jim Jones loved like that. That is clearly an expression of love and it also puts Joff's well-being and needs before the well-being of the public or even the Crown. If you want to measure love that's a stronger sign than deliberately putting a minor in danger less he loses face with his subjects. In that sense you more care about your child as a monarch or leader and less about them as a person. Cersei shows there that she is a poor Queen Regent but not exactly a bad mother. Cat allowed Robb to personally lead his armies despite the fact that he had no right to call the banners nor the right to actually lead an army as a minor. His excuse that 'nobody else was there' made no sense as both he and Cat knew when he made them. Allowing Robb to continue at this blew up his ego and confidence and caused him to make crucial mistakes. Mistakes that wouldn't have been made had Cat actually continued to act as regent in Ned's absence (and then also as regent for Robb after Ned had been killed). Allowing Robb to much free rein so early allowed him to acquire too much authority too early, resulting first in his silly coronation and then in him ignoring his mother's advice and sending her from his side. There Cat gives in to the feudal values rather than actually doing the smart thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Sorry, but, what is that about? Are you some kind of love measurement device? Did your own parents' love for you involve some kind of sacrifice? Are you willing to sacrifice something to prove to your children or loved ones that you love them? No need to apologize. Yes I am, we all are. Yes, I wouldn't be where I am today without the sacrifices my parents made on my behalf. I am not going to list here the sacrifices I've made during my daughter's life on her behalf. She's my daughter and I don't count the cost, but denying that sacrifices were made... who are you, her mom's lawyer? 26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: That is clearly an expression of love and it also puts Joff's well-being and needs before the well-being of the public or even the Crown. No. This is narcisism. Love engenders strength not fear. This a perfect example of Cersei demonstrating that Joffrey's personhood is secondary to her own. She wanted her things around her when she died. If the whole thing was 'Get Joffrey out of the capital', then at least an argument that she was acting in the interest of his safety could be made. She wanted him back in her death chamber though. He wasn't going to survive the battle if she didn't. kissdbyfire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 6 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said: No need to apologize. Yes I am, we all are. Yes, I wouldn't be where I am today without the sacrifices my parents made on my behalf. I am not going to list here the sacrifices I've made during my daughter's life on her behalf. She's my daughter and I don't count the cost, but denying that sacrifices were made... who are you, her mom's lawyer? The point I was trying to make is that it is silly to measure love by way of 'sacrifices'. You also only have to sacrifice something if you are not rich or wealthy enough to live the life you want to with your family and loved ones. But we wouldn't say rich people can't love (their children) because they never or rarely have to sacrifice stuff. 6 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said: No. This is narcisism. Love engenders strength not fear. This a perfect example of Cersei demonstrating that Joffrey's personhood is secondary to her own. She wanted her things around her when she died. If the whole thing was 'Get Joffrey out of the capital', then at least an argument that she was acting in the interest of his safety could be made. She wanted him back in her death chamber though. He wasn't going to survive the battle if she didn't. I'm not contradicting that it might be a more adult form of love to build strength and independence in children of a certain age. But that doesn't mean it is not love if you dote on your child and want to protect them. Also, the Red Keep wasn't a death trap. If KL were to fall then the castle could hold out some time still, perhaps even days or weeks, prolonging Joff's life. Not to mention that there are secret tunnels in the Red Keep allowing them to try to escape if push came to shove. The problem with recalling Joff was that it was bad for the morale of the loyalist troops in the city ... but using Joff in that capacity was already endangering his person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The point I was trying to make is that it is silly to measure love by way of 'sacrifices'. Sillier than dreams or empty words? We have to use something. I tend to judge people more on what they do than what they say. 7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Also, the Red Keep wasn't a death trap. If KL were to fall then the castle could hold out some time still, perhaps even days or weeks, prolonging Joff's life. Not to mention that there are secret tunnels in the Red Keep allowing them to try to escape if push came to shove. Ok that could be my bad. I'm possibly getting polluted by memories of the abomination where Illyn Payne was on hand to ensure Stannis wouldn't be getting any hostages. I don't remember where Varys was either, so I don't know that they would have had access to those hidden tunnels or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 46 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said: Ok that could be my bad. I'm possibly getting polluted by memories of the abomination where Illyn Payne was on hand to ensure Stannis wouldn't be getting any hostages. I don't remember where Varys was either, so I don't know that they would have had access to those hidden tunnels or not. Nope. Payne was there. The Red keep was Jonestown if it wasn't for Renley's Ghost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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