KingAerys_II Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 14 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: His sons are a close second… they are all murderers. Curufin servants abandoned Elros and Elrond in a forest, Maglor adopted them and treated them as if they were his own sons , so he is completely fine Edited February 9 by KingAerys_II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlyaP Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 25 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: Curufin servants abandoned Elros and Elrond in a forest, Maglor adopted them and treated them as if they were his own sons , so he is completely fine Ah ah ah, that's dodging! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 38 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: Curufin servants abandoned Elros and Elrond in a forest, Maglor adopted them and treated them as if they were his own sons , so he is completely fine After murdering the people who were caring for Elros and Elrond… Maglor adopted them… how is that okay? IlyaP and Durckad 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 The Elves of the Silmarillion were anything but wise. Gifted, intelligent, brave? Certainly, but those are different attributes to wisdom. In general, men are a lot better at war than elves are, in Tolkien's works. Because they lack the elves' natural gifts as warriors, they have to plan and strategise. Elven military operations never evolve beyond the wild charge at the enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 1 hour ago, SeanF said: The Elves of the Silmarillion were anything but wise. Gifted, intelligent, brave? Certainly, but those are different attributes to wisdom. In general, men are a lot better at war than elves are, in Tolkien's works. Because they lack the elves' natural gifts as warriors, they have to plan and strategise. Elven military operations never evolve beyond the wild charge at the enemy. Fingolfin fought Morgoth in single combat and crippled him. Echtelion slew Gothmog , the Lord of the Balrogs, he was as powerful as Sauron. Glorfindel killed a balrog to save refugees from Gondolin. Earendil, an half elf killed Ancalagon the Black during the War of Wrath. Finrod killed a werewolf , meanwhile he was chained, the elf used his teeth and bare hands to kill him. Luthien forced Sauron into submission. Humans strenght was the number, the elves, especially the ones that saw the Light of the Trees were the most powerful beings. Elves fertility rate is extremely low Edited February 9 by KingAerys_II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 2 hours ago, KingAerys_II said: Curufin servants abandoned Elros and Elrond in a forest, Maglor adopted them and treated them as if they were his own sons , so he is completely fine Weren’t the kids abandoned in the forest never heard from again? Elrond/Elros were adopted by Maglor later, when the sons of Feanor attacked the refugees from Doriath and Gondolin at the mouth of Sirion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 10 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: Fingolfin fought Morgoth in single combat and crippled him. Echtelion slew Morgoth , the Lord of the Balrogs, he was as powerful as Sauron. Glorfindel killed a balrog to save refugees from Gondolin. Earendil, an half elf killed Ancalagon the Black during the War of Wrath. Finrod killed a werewolf , meanwhile he was chained, the elf used his teeth and bare hands to kill him. Luthien forced Sauron into submission. Humans strenght was the number, the elves, especially the ones that saw the Light of the Trees were the most powerful beings. Elves fertility rate is extremely low You’re making all sorts of mistakes today! IlyaP 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said: Fingolfin fought Morgoth in single combat and crippled him. Echtelion slew Morgoth , the Lord of the Balrogs, he was as powerful as Sauron. Glorfindel killed a balrog to save refugees from Gondolin. Earendil, an half elf killed Ancalagon the Black during the War of Wrath. Finrod killed a werewolf , meanwhile he was chained, the elf used his teeth and bare hands to kill him. Luthien forced Sauron into submission. Humans strenght was the number, the elves, especially the ones that saw the Light of the Trees were the most powerful beings. Elves fertility rate is extremely low None of what you are describing involves “wisdom”… you are making @SeanF point… not refuting it. Edited February 9 by Ser Scot A Ellison SeanF, IlyaP and Corvinus85 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 The King of Numenor destroyed his kingdom because he trusted Sauron, the Nazgul are an example of human greed , Galadriel remains the only one who was not deceived. Finrod fought to protect Beren , Glorfindel sacrificed his life for the sake of refugees, Maedhros founded a company of elves, men and dwarves to attack Morgoth army, made of Balrogs, Dragons and werewolves, lots of elves kingdom fell because Morgoth was very powerful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: None of what you are describing involves “wisdom”… you are making @SeanF point… noy refuting it. Put another way, elves study tactics, humans study logistics. Corvinus85 and Ser Scot A Ellison 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlyaP Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 And Feanor was still a genocidal maniac. Glad we all agree on that. Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 45 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: Fingolfin fought Morgoth in single combat and crippled him. Echtelion slew Gothmog , the Lord of the Balrogs, he was as powerful as Sauron. Glorfindel killed a balrog to save refugees from Gondolin. Earendil, an half elf killed Ancalagon the Black during the War of Wrath. Finrod killed a werewolf , meanwhile he was chained, the elf used his teeth and bare hands to kill him. Luthien forced Sauron into submission. Humans strenght was the number, the elves, especially the ones that saw the Light of the Trees were the most powerful beings. Elves fertility rate is extremely low Scarcely any human could match those feats. Not even Aragorn would fight Gothmog or Morgoth, single-handedly. It took Elendil, Isildur, and Gil-Galad to take down Sauron, and two of them were killed. One on one, almost any elf will outclass almost any human. So, humans learned to fight differently. They would send a legion against Gothmog, if they were fighting him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 50 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: Fingolfin fought Morgoth in single combat and crippled him. Echtelion slew Gothmog , the Lord of the Balrogs, he was as powerful as Sauron. Glorfindel killed a balrog to save refugees from Gondolin.Earendil, an half elf killed Ancalagon the Black during the War of Wrath. Finrod killed a werewolf , meanwhile he was chained, the elf used his teeth and bare hands to kill him. Luthien forced Sauron into submission. Humans strenght was the number, the elves, especially the ones that saw the Light of the Trees were the most powerful beings. Elves fertility rate is extremely low Or you can say Eärendil, a half-human, used his magic ship to fight the biggest dragon ever and win. And on the subject of dragons, all named dragons from the Legendarium were slain by humans. Túrin Turambar killed Glaurung, Bard the Bowman killed Smaug, and the lesser known Fram, a northman of the Éothéod, killed Scatha. In all cases, the human didn't pit himself against his enemy like the Elven heroes did, he used skill and cunning. Which makes @SeanF's point, that Men are better than Elves at war, as they often have to strategize how to defeat powerful enemies. Ser Scot A Ellison and SeanF 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 5 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said: Or you can say Eärendil, a half-human, used his magic ship to fight the biggest dragon ever and win. And on the subject of dragons, all named dragons from the Legendarium were slain by humans. Túrin Turambar killed Glaurung, Bard the Bowman killed Smaug, and the lesser known Fram, a northman of the Éothéod, killed Scatha. In all cases, the human didn't pit himself against his enemy like the Elven heroes did, he used skill and cunning. Which makes @SeanF's point, that Men are better than Elves at war, as they often have to strategize how to defeat powerful enemies. Turin used Anglechiel to kill Glaurung , Anglechiel is a special sword forged by Eol the dark elf. Turin was brave and strong , but he was an impulsive man, he convinced the king of the Nargothrond to attack Morgoth army that defeated the elves army, then Glaurung destroyed the city thanks to the bridge Turin built to make raids against the orcs . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 5 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: Turin used Anglechiel to kill Glaurung , Anglechiel is a special sword forged by Eol the dark elf. Turin was brave and strong , but he was an impulsive man, he convinced the king of the Nargothrond to attack Morgoth army that defeated the elves army, then Glaurung destroyed the city thanks to the bridge Turin built to make raids against the orcs . Your point being? It wasn't just that he used a special sword. Have you actually read that scene? Yes, Turin's strategy wasn't the best in the end, but that is part of the tragic destiny he had. kissdbyfire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 It's becoming increasingly clear that KingAerys is working from (poorly understood) wiki summaries here because he hasn't read Tolkien's work. KingAerys_II, Corvinus85 and Derfel Cadarn 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 16 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: Turin used Anglechiel to kill Glaurung , Anglechiel is a special sword forged by Eol the dark elf. Turin was brave and strong , but he was an impulsive man, he convinced the king of the Nargothrond to attack Morgoth army that defeated the elves army, then Glaurung destroyed the city thanks to the bridge Turin built to make raids against the orcs . This demonstrates the inherent “wisdom” of the 1st Age Noldor… how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 8 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said: Your point being? It wasn't just that he used a special sword. Have you actually read that scene? Yes, Turin's strategy wasn't the best in the end, but that is part of the tragic destiny he had. Turin decisions led to the destruction of the Nargothrond, Galadriel decisions led to the defeat of Sauron, Galadriel belongs to the Noldor and she is born during the age of Trees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 3 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: Turin decisions led to the destruction of the Nargothrond, Galadriel decisions led to the defeat of Sauron, Galadriel belongs to the Noldor and she is born during the age of Trees. And you know she was wise and foresighted in the first and second ages… based on… what? Edited February 9 by Ser Scot A Ellison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 34 minutes ago, polishgenius said: It's becoming increasingly clear that KingAerys is working from (poorly understood) wiki summaries here because he hasn't read Tolkien's work. True. He confused Elured and Elurin with Elrond and Elros! And apparently Morgoth is a balrog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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