Why Wylla?

[Bendric Dayne]

If characters like Cersei and Catelyn already suspected Ashara to be Jon's mother, then why does Ned tell Robert that Jon's mother is Wylla and not Ashara if people around him already believe that to be the case? Ashara is dead so it's not like she has to go along with some lie and she did get pregnant out of wedlock so it wouldn't taint her honor any more than what it already is. Seems like the perfect person to claim as Jon's mother. Also, with Wylla being at Starfall and with Ned Dayne believing her to be the mother, it's possible that the surviving Daynes were part of the Wylla lie, so why not just say it was Ashara instead? Presumably, Ned didn't get her pregnant, but someone else did. If anything, saying it was a Stark that got her pregnant probably looks better because the Starks are a great house. So it wouldn't really do the Daynes any harm to claim that Ashara is Jon's mother and that Ned was the one that got her pregnant. I just don't really understand why Ned would go with the Wylla lie when so many other people already believe Jon's mother to be Ashara without any effort from his part on making them believe that. He should just say the mother is Ashara that way people stop wondering who it is. Isn't it more risky for Ned to keep the question open for people to keep wondering and looking for answers until maybe they stumble upon the truth? Doesn't that put Jon's life at risk? Saying Ashara is Jon's mother is the surest and safest way of putting any other rumors to bed and keeping Jon safe.

[House Cambodia]

Not for me. If it were officially stated that Jon was the offspring of Ned and Ashara, he would be a bastard of noble blood, thus not low-profile enough to keep him really safe. I mean, at the other end of the Seven Kingdoms, we've got Darkstar making himself quite a prominent notoriety. As it is, Jon grew up merely being 'Snow, Ned's bastard', which did indeed keep the eyes of Robert and everyone else off him.

[Sandy Clegg]

Ashara potentially being Jon's mother is essentially one of those 'worst-kept secrets'. The Winterfell servants talk about it until Ned orders the whispering to stop. A fact that would likely be uncovered if, say, Robert asked Varys to look into the matter more deeply. So Ned is playing his role exactly as everyone would expect him to, if Ashara was indeed the mother. Even to the point of giving the name Wylla to Robert when confronted about it. And if anyone weree to go to Starfall, that's the name they would hear there, too (as Arya learns from Ned Dayne). 

People wishing to put two and two together will never be satisfied until they are able to feel that they have resolved the answer themselves, so it would never be enough for Ned to say 'Ashara was his mother'. You'd always get sceptics. But by having two candidates for Jon's mother, Ned puts a double buffer between the truth of Lyanna and Jon.  So Ned can let people speculate to their heart's content. Those who are too polite to enquire (or don't wish to incur Lord Stark's rage) are never going to be a problem. The ones who accept the answer of Wylla are likewise not a problem. And the ones who 'get it' and assume his mother is Ashara presumably know better than to push it and take the matter further. She killed herself and Ned took the baby back to Winterfell. The whole business was a tragic affair best left unearthed. Unless you're Cersei:

You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? - Eddard XII

Whether this was Ashara's child by Ned, or perhaps by Brandon (rumours, rumours) the fact would remain that 'damn cold-hearted Ned Stark' had taken a child of his blood away from his natural mother, leaving her bereft enough to commit suicide. Ned's reputation kind of confirms that this is exactly what he would do. And the suicide also puts an extra layer of 'maybe we should all just let it lie' around the event. Two red herrings are better than one.

[Bendric Dayne]

16 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Not for me. If it were officially stated that Jon was the offspring of Ned and Ashara, he would be a bastard of noble blood, thus not low-profile enough to keep him really safe. I mean, at the other end of the Seven Kingdoms, we've got Darkstar making himself quite a prominent notoriety. As it is, Jon grew up merely being 'Snow, Ned's bastard', which did indeed keep the eyes of Robert and everyone else off him.

How would him being a bastard of noble blood make him any less safe? If anything, Cat might be more understanding of the situation considering Ashara was dead so Jon would not have any other parent to take care of him so he has to live with Ned. Edric Storm is the son of a Florent and King Robert and he gets treated better than Robert's other bastards because of who his mother is. In what way would Jon being a bastard of noble blood affect him? He's still a bastard either way. He would still have been 'Snow, Ned's bastard' because Ned did not marry Ashara, so Robert's eyes would still have been off him. 

Not sure what Darkstar has anything to do with this. I'm pretty sure he's not even a bastard since he's 'Gerold Dayne' not 'Gerold Sand'.

[Nevets]

I suspect it is provable that Ashara is not Jon's mother.  For instance if she were already pregnant when Jon was conceived she couldn't be his mother.  If it could be proven that she can't be Jon's mother, it raises questions and what Ned is hiding.  Better to say nothing and give potential inquirers nothing to work with.

[Sly Wren]

22 hours ago, Bendric Dayne said:

Doesn't that put Jon's life at risk? Saying Ashara is Jon's mother is the surest and safest way of putting any other rumors to bed and keeping Jon safe.

Depends--note that Starfall tells the same story Ned tells. About a woman that lives there and was the wet nurse to the current Lord of Starfall.

There's a decent chance that Ned is not the only one with something to hide.

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

I suspect it is provable that Ashara is not Jon's mother.  For instance if she were already pregnant when Jon was conceived she couldn't be his mother.  If it could be proven that she can't be Jon's mother, it raises questions and what Ned is hiding.  Better to say nothing and give potential inquirers nothing to work with.

Or: give them something easy to look for. 

If Ned says "Wylla" but others think "Ashara--because they danced at Harrenhal"--then people think they've solved the mystery and look no further.

That would assume Ned would plot like that--which may be a stretch. Ned's go to move seems to be silence when it comes to secrets.

But the fact that he gives any name for Jon's mother. . . that he doesn't just keep silent. That may mean he isn't the only one who his keeping this secret. 

[Bendric Dayne]

6 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Ashara potentially being Jon's mother is essentially one of those 'worst-kept secrets'. The Winterfell servants talk about it until Ned orders the whispering to stop. A fact that would likely be uncovered if, say, Robert asked Varys to look into the matter more deeply. So Ned is playing his role exactly as everyone would expect him to, if Ashara was indeed the mother. Even to the point of giving the name Wylla to Robert when confronted about it. And if anyone weree to go to Starfall, that's the name they would hear there, too (as Arya learns from Ned Dayne). 

People wishing to put two and two together will never be satisfied until they are able to feel that they have resolved the answer themselves, so it would never be enough for Ned to say 'Ashara was his mother'. You'd always get sceptics. But by having two candidates for Jon's mother, Ned puts a double buffer between the truth of Lyanna and Jon.  So Ned can let people speculate to their heart's content. Those who are too polite to enquire (or don't wish to incur Lord Stark's rage) are never going to be a problem. The ones who accept the answer of Wylla are likewise not a problem. And the ones who 'get it' and assume his mother is Ashara presumably know better than to push it and take the matter further. She killed herself and Ned took the baby back to Winterfell. The whole business was a tragic affair best left unearthed. Unless you're Cersei:

You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? - Eddard XII

Whether this was Ashara's child by Ned, or perhaps by Brandon (rumours, rumours) the fact would remain that 'damn cold-hearted Ned Stark' had taken a child of his blood away from his natural mother, leaving her bereft enough to commit suicide. Ned's reputation kind of confirms that this is exactly what he would do. And the suicide also puts an extra layer of 'maybe we should all just let it lie' around the event. Two red herrings are better than one.

I don't think it is like Ned to come up with such a complicated plan thinking about how people won't be satisfied with the first answer so they'll continue to search and be satisfied with the second answer. He can barely come up with one lie, I don't think he'll come up with this plan of a lie within a lie. Either way I don't see why anyone would assume that any initial story is a lie. If they believe the mother is Ashara and Ned later confirms it, why would they think it's some sort of cover up? Nobody thinks any of Robert's bastards have some secret mother. People only get curious about Cersei's children when they see how many Baratheon's have black hair so it's definitely weird that none of her children have black hair. But even that took people a very long time to figure out and it's only because Robert fathered so many bastards that they even began to ask questions. My point is, people aren't really out there questioning the parentage of bastards. The moment they know someone is a bastard they are basically dismissive of their existence. They'll probably buy whatever story they first hear and never think about the bastard again. Hearing multiple different stories and rumors however, makes people wonder and ask questions. If someone like Varys hears one thing from his little birds and another from the king he might put more resources into finding out the truth. 

 

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

I suspect it is provable that Ashara is not Jon's mother.  For instance if she were already pregnant when Jon was conceived she couldn't be his mother.  If it could be proven that she can't be Jon's mother, it raises questions and what Ned is hiding.  Better to say nothing and give potential inquirers nothing to work with.

Yeah this makes sense and I believe it's probably the reason. Whether it's true or not, Barristan believes her to have birthed a stillborn so at the very least we know some people don't believe her to be Jon's mother. How Barristan got this info is unknown, so it is possible that he would have believed the baby was Jon if that was Ned's story. If there is a clear issue with the timing then I don't see why any character would believe Ashara to be Jon's mother so I suspect that she had her baby at a similar time. Ned could also lie about the timing of Jon's birth to line up with Ashara's pregnancy. Although, I do agree that the reason as to why Ned doesn't use Ashara as his red herring is because some people out there could figure out that that is clearly a lie. 

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Depends--note that Starfall tells the same story Ned tells. About a woman that lives there and was the wet nurse to the current Lord of Starfall.

There's a decent chance that Ned is not the only one with something to hide.

Yeah I believe that the Daynes are in on the same lie as Ned and were the ones who possibly conceived it. The fact that Wylla is the lie and that that's the story they tell Ned Dayne tells me that's the case. I guess I'd like to know why it is that the Daynes and Ned came up with the Wylla lie and didn't go along with the Ashara lie. I guess we'll find out if/when TWOW comes out. 

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

If Ned says "Wylla" but others think "Ashara--because they danced at Harrenhal"--then people think they've solved the mystery and look no further.

I don't really think people assume there is any mystery to begin with. What makes it mysterious is the fact that Ned doesn't say anything so people speculate. If he said it was Ashara, then people would accept that as the answer and not think of it further. I guess the point I was originally trying to make is that because of Ned's previous connection to Ashara, saying she's the mother would be the most convincing answer to everyone else. Saying Wylla is the mother doesn't necessarily invite too many questions either, but the most skeptical people like Varys and LF might not be satisfied and would maybe inquire further. I mean, is it more likely that Ned Stark tainted his honor on some common woman, or on the most beautiful woman in Westeros? I think the latter option invites less questions. 

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

That would assume Ned would plot like that--which may be a stretch. Ned's go to move seems to be silence when it comes to secrets.

But the fact that he gives any name for Jon's mother. . . that he doesn't just keep silent. That may mean he isn't the only one who his keeping this secret. 

Yeah I highly doubt Ned would come up with some sort of double bluff situation. He also only tells Robert that Jon's mother is Wylla, he doesn't give any name to anyone else. I suspect that he refuses to lie so long as it's possible, but in the situation in which his king and best friend asks he knows he has to lie. The reason I think most people speculate anything at all is because of Ned's silence. I suspect most would accept either Wylla or Ashara as the answer if Ned only said so. Since he doesn't give an answer people then naturally speculate. My original question was more about the instance in which Ned tells Robert that the mother is Wylla. Why say Wylla instead of going with what everyone else speculates which is Ashara? Either way, it's probably because he knows someone could disprove that Ashara is the mother.

[Buried Treasure]

Ned did not like lying outright, where possible he would like by omission or give a technically true answer that misdirected.

He did commit to outright saying the lie that Jon was his bastard son. He is less likely to been willing to lie about a woman and defame her.

 

With Wylla there may have been opportunity to infer a false narrative without telling outright lies. Ned Dayne knew Wylla as Jon's wetnurse, so it is likely they would have been seen together at some point - either by Ned's army in Dorne or back in Kings landing.

 

- Why is there a baby with you?

- That's Jon, he's mine. I've  acknowledged  him as my bastard son.

- And the girl?

- Her name is Wylla. She will not be travelling to Winterfell; I will find a wetnurse in the city. 

(omitting that Wylla was already a wetnurse).

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 24 by Buried Treasure

[Sandy Clegg]

11 hours ago, Bendric Dayne said:

My point is, people aren't really out there questioning the parentage of bastards. The moment they know someone is a bastard they are basically dismissive of their existence.

Not everyone is the king, is the simple answer.

Ned is in the unique position of having to worry that the most powerful person in the realm might find out that Jon is a Targaryen. A person who has a famous inclination to kill every Targaryen he gets his hands on. 

11 hours ago, Bendric Dayne said:

don't think it is like Ned to come up with such a complicated plan thinking about how people won't be satisfied with the first answer so they'll continue to search and be satisfied with the second answer.

If the need was great enough (and it clearly was), I'm sure Ned would have smart enough to realise this plan's merits, and therefore its potential. Besides, it's implied that some members of the Dayne family are involved in the events around Jon's birth, so we don't know that Ned did come up the idea on his own. The Daynes named a child Ned, in honour of ... someone who was responsible for Ashara killing herself? We're meant to find this a little odd, I think. And Ned Dayne knows the tale of Wylla being Jon's mother, so this at least is part of the lie which some Daynes are 'in the loop' about. 

 

[Sandy Clegg]

13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Or: give them something easy to look for. 

If Ned says "Wylla" but others think "Ashara--because they danced at Harrenhal"--then people think they've solved the mystery and look no further.

Exactly my point. You have to plan in advance for suspicious busybodies.

[Sly Wren]

16 hours ago, Bendric Dayne said:

Yeah I believe that the Daynes are in on the same lie as Ned and were the ones who possibly conceived it. The fact that Wylla is the lie and that that's the story they tell Ned Dayne tells me that's the case. I guess I'd like to know why it is that the Daynes and Ned came up with the Wylla lie and didn't go along with the Ashara lie. I guess we'll find out if/when TWOW comes out. 

My best guess is that the Daynes have a secret as dangerous (or close to it) as Jon's parentage. Probably something to do with Ashara's mystery child that seems to change gender based on story. That could explain why Ned is so vehement about keeping her name out of any discussions about secrets.

I'm also one who thinks it likely that Lyanna ended up living at Starfall for a bit, probably under an alias and disguise (like Arya and Sansa do)--which could be really dangerous for the Daynes if Robert found out it. 

And, give that the Daynes have clearly taught Edric/Ned to think highly of Ned Stark, the guy who killed their literal chosen son--I really think it's likely Ned is keeping not just a secret about Jon, but a secret that protects the Daynes. Maybe the same secret. Maybe different ones. But something is up with the Daynes.

Thus, the "Wylla" story is a marker that something else is up. And I think that Wylla Manderly is also a marker that something else is up. ETA: I have a whole theory with questionable scenarios on this, so I'm trying not to derail your thread. But if you have interest in rabbit holes: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/153587-why-“wylla”-meet-lyanna’s-dornish-doppelganger/

 

16 hours ago, Bendric Dayne said:

I don't really think people assume there is any mystery to begin with. What makes it mysterious is the fact that Ned doesn't say anything so people speculate. If he said it was Ashara, then people would accept that as the answer and not think of it further. I guess the point I was originally trying to make is that because of Ned's previous connection to Ashara, saying she's the mother would be the most convincing answer to everyone else. Saying Wylla is the mother doesn't necessarily invite too many questions either, but the most skeptical people like Varys and LF might not be satisfied and would maybe inquire further. I mean, is it more likely that Ned Stark tainted his honor on some common woman, or on the most beautiful woman in Westeros? I think the latter option invites less questions. 

Agreed--something is clearly up here. This is not normal for the world of Westeros. Granted, Ned is one who simply keeps silent about painful things. But his vehemence with Cat to silence any gossip about Ashara--that really seems like a pointer that something else is up with the Daynes.

 

9 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

Ned did not like lying outright, where possible he would like by omission or give a technically true answer that misdirected.

He did commit to outright saying the lie that Jon was his bastard son. He is less likely to been willing to lie about a woman and defame her.

With Wylla there may have been opportunity to infer a false narrative without telling outright lies. Ned Dayne knew Wylla as Jon's wetnurse, so it is likely they would have been seen together at some point - either by Ned's army in Dorne or back in Kings landing.

All true--except there is no need to give a name. Just say nothing. That's the Ned-ly way. The fact that Wylla is a real person still alive at Starfall--he's still impugning her. Ned isn't keen on such things. If he could just stay silent, he would. For some reason, he gave a name. Not of a fictitious Canadian girlfriend, but of a real, living person.

Something is up.

Edited March 24 by Sly Wren
Can't spell.

[Buried Treasure]

 

32 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

 

All true--except there is no need to give a name. Just say nothing. That's the Ned-ly way. The fact that Wylla is a real person still alive at Starfall--he's still impugning her. Ned isn't keen on such things. If he could just stay silent, he would. For some reason, he gave a name. Not of a fictitious Canadian girlfriend, but of a real, living person.

 

My suggestion was not that Wylla's name was not given as the answer to the question 'who is the child's mother?'. But rather her name was truthfully given as the name of the actual women witnessed nursing the infant Jon - and the inferred lie was allowing it to be assumed this woman was mother not wetnurse. 

 

Though I did misremember something on my previous post: I said Ned Dayne was told Wylla was Jon's wetnurse. He was actually told Wylla was Jon's mother. And this was in Dorne years after Ned had gone north. Which goes back to the point of somebody at starfell being complicit in telling Ned's version of events. Perhaps Wylla herself was willing to clearly say she was the mother.

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, Buried Treasure said:

My suggestion was not that Wylla's name was not given as the answer to the question 'who is the child's mother?'. But rather her name was truthfully given as the name of the actual women witnessed nursing the infant Jon - and the inferred lie was allowing it to be assumed this woman was mother not wetnurse. 

Though I did misremember something on my previous post: I said Ned Dayne was told Wylla was Jon's wetnurse. He was actually told Wylla was Jon's mother. And this was in Dorne years after Ned had gone north. Which goes back to the point of somebody at starfell being complicit in telling Ned's version of events. Perhaps Wylla herself was willing to clearly say she was the mother.

1. My apologies--I read too quickly.

2. On the bolded--yes. Starfall actively embraces this story for some reason. It's weird. Ned Dayne, the Lord of Starfall, seems to think it's a cool factoid that he shared a wet-nurse with the Bastard of Winterfell. GRRM is drawing a circle around this story for some reason.

And Wylla is not refuting the story to the Lord of Starfall--for some reason, she's going along with it.

If the point is just to hide Jon's parentage and keep Jon safe at Winterfell (or the Wall), there is no need for Ned to go along with the Daynes' story that a living woman at Starfall is Jon's mother. Not when Ned is so clearly willing to say nothing. It's weird. 

I really think GRRM setting us up to eventually learn that Starfall is hiding something much bigger. 

[Daeron the Daring]

It's not a mistery.

Not a lot of people give a single tought about Eddard Stark south of the Neck. Even less would about a bastard. Bastards are not a mistery, nor a sensation. 

There is nothing for Eddard Stark to hide, but it's, one one hand, pointless to throw mud at the name of the woman she might have had feelings for (regardless of what she felt about him), because her pregnancy is just a speculation On the other hand, it's much more believable that Ned Stark, 'famous' for his honor would need to dump his sexual needs in a military campaign, away from his wife. After all, he's just a man as well, they'd think. If he said Jon is Ashara's son, it would imply that he pursued a relationship with another noblewoman as a married man. Implying that Jon's mother holds no relevancy for him is the best for Catelyn, the best for himself, the best for Ashara and the best for Jon as well.

[Sly Wren]

3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

It's not a mistery.

Not a lot of people give a single tought about Eddard Stark south of the Neck. Even less would about a bastard. Bastards are not a mistery, nor a sensation. 

There is nothing for Eddard Stark to hide, but it's, one one hand, pointless to throw mud at the name of the woman she might have had feelings for (regardless of what she felt about him), because her pregnancy is just a speculation On the other hand, it's much more believable that Ned Stark, 'famous' for his honor would need to dump his sexual needs in a military campaign, away from his wife. After all, he's just a man as well, they'd think. If he said Jon is Ashara's son, it would imply that he pursued a relationship with another noblewoman as a married man. Implying that Jon's mother holds no relevancy for him is the best for Catelyn, the best for himself, the best for Ashara and the best for Jon as well.

Right--but isn't that the point of the OP's question?

There's nothing really for Ned to hide if it isn't Ashara. No point in naming anyone.

But Ned never tells anyone (other than Robert) that it wasn't Ashara--Cat says he got really angry, told her never "to ask about Jon," demanded where she'd heard the name, and made the whole of Winterfell shut up. He doesn't deny it's Ashara, let alone mention Wylla. And Cat is left thinking that Ned must have loved Jon's mother "fiercely." The opposite of the effect you note would be best. 

When Cersei mentions Ashara, Ned just says nothing. One assumes Cersei thus continues to think she's right, not that Ned didn't care for Ashara. 

And Harwin suggests to Arya that Ned loved Ashara. That's the story that seems to have gotten out--the opposite of what you suggest.

So . . . given that Ned won't talk about it, and that he won't argue with people who think it's Ashara. . . what  is the point of naming Wylla? Especially once we find out that she's a real person living with a noble house who thinks she's Jon's mother? What's the point of this? 

It's odd.

[Darth Sidious]

Jon Snow’s parents are Lyanna Stark and Mance Rayder. But let’s look at this theory. Do you think it’s easy to fool everybody at Starfall? Who saw Ashara take her own life?  The parents of Jon being Ned and Ashara works within the plot. But something so important needed to happen. Important enough to fake her death and leave a life of entitlements behind. The only answer is she has to go into exile to raise Rhaegar’s child. She gave up raising her and Ned’s son, Jon. Aegon is a suspect. A Targaryen bastard. Ashara is loyal to the Targaryens. 
 

Jon has dark hair. He is the last you would suspect as a Targaryen. None of this complicated deception is justified to hide him. Ned could say he was his and Ashara’s bastard. Nobody would question that. But if there was a second child in the picture, with blonde hair, now that make things complex. But even a blonde bastard among the Daynes is easy to hide. Unless the child is so important that it was worth the sacrifices of three people to get him across to the Free Cities.  The two suspects for the special baby are Aegon and Daenerys. The money is on Aegon. 

Edited March 25 by Darth Sidious

[Daeron the Daring]

11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

There's nothing really for Ned to hide if it isn't Ashara. No point in naming anyone.

The point I'm making is that he wouldn't have anything to hide, anyway. Even if it was Ashara, or he would have people believe she's Jon's mother.

11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But Ned never tells anyone (other than Robert) that it wasn't Ashara--Cat says he got really angry, told her never "to ask about Jon," demanded where she'd heard the name, and made the whole of Winterfell shut up.

Because it doesn't matter who Jon's mother is. That much comes off clear from his attitude. He would have you believe Jon's parentage is unimportant, because the opposite of that is true. And answering a question would always just raise another one.

Plus, you don't know how early into their marriage Catelyn asked this, and how insecure he might have seen his own, fresh marriage. It was probably not much after Eddard came back, which is when Jon's existence was a sensation for the servants and courtiers of Winterfell. He made it clear he doesn't want speculation around it and Catelyn never again raised the question, for 10+ years.

You don't know what Ned would've said for the same question to Catelyn, if she was to ask it before he left for South, but the question wasn't raised because it didn't matter. Because he made it not matter.

11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

And Cat is left thinking that Ned must have loved Jon's mother "fiercely." The opposite of the effect you note would be best. 

Well, I don't disagree with you on facts. I'm saying you look at what Ned did do, and what he might have wanted to accomplish. That his attitude backfired in some ways is just depth to the plot, but I would say he was pretty successful about keeping Jon's parentage a secret and shut up speculations early, wouldn't you agree?

11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

When Cersei mentions Ashara, Ned just says nothing. One assumes Cersei thus continues to think she's right, not that Ned didn't care for Ashara. 

He doesn't have to. For all he cares, especially at that point, Cersei Lannister can think what she wants.

11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

And Harwin suggests to Arya that Ned loved Ashara. That's the story that seems to have gotten out--the opposite of what you suggest.

He suggests that it's not a long stretch that Ned Stark, well into his youth, could've developed feelings for Ashara or anyone else for that matter. This does not mean he had anything to do with what Ashara had gone trough at the tourney at Harrenhal and onwards.

The people that spill the tea about their affairs is the likes for Petyr Baelish. Even if Ned was a honorable figure in a romantic novel, keeping his beloved's name a secret would fall into the idea of that style's honor, not telling it to anyone.

11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

So . . . given that Ned won't talk about it, and that he won't argue with people who think it's Ashara. . . what  is the point of naming Wylla? Especially once we find out that she's a real person living with a noble house who thinks she's Jon's mother? What's the point of this? 

It's odd.

People are different, and different answers satisfy them. I think it's obvious Wylla's name was prepared for occasions like when it was revealed. 

And the fact he deliberately ended the rumours at Winterfell suggests he does care about Ashara's name being brought up. Robert, for example, seems to be acting based on information he in part forgot, he doesn't speculate about the social class of Jon's mother. He seems to know it was just a commoner.

Finally, it wasn't the right place, nor the right time to go defensive against Cersei, to whom he just revealed he knows her children aren't Robert's.

You say it's odd, I say it all makes sense. Not because I know every miniature detail about the cover-up of Jon's identity, but because it worked. Because nobody found out who his parents are, and nobody cared either, outside of Catelyn, of course.

Gossip and speculation of another's life is a daily habit of people. Why wouldn't the men of Winterfell engage in it, why wouldn't Robert ask his best friend about it like it's no big deal, why wouldn't Cersei get defensive in her position? Ned and the people around Jon knew this, they came up with a basic strategy and lie that required 5 minutes to fabricate.

Edited March 25 by Daeron the Daring

[John Suburbs]

On 3/22/2024 at 9:02 PM, Bendric Dayne said:

If characters like Cersei and Catelyn already suspected Ashara to be Jon's mother, then why does Ned tell Robert that Jon's mother is Wylla and not Ashara if people around him already believe that to be the case? Ashara is dead so it's not like she has to go along with some lie and she did get pregnant out of wedlock so it wouldn't taint her honor any more than what it already is. Seems like the perfect person to claim as Jon's mother. Also, with Wylla being at Starfall and with Ned Dayne believing her to be the mother, it's possible that the surviving Daynes were part of the Wylla lie, so why not just say it was Ashara instead? Presumably, Ned didn't get her pregnant, but someone else did. If anything, saying it was a Stark that got her pregnant probably looks better because the Starks are a great house. So it wouldn't really do the Daynes any harm to claim that Ashara is Jon's mother and that Ned was the one that got her pregnant. I just don't really understand why Ned would go with the Wylla lie when so many other people already believe Jon's mother to be Ashara without any effort from his part on making them believe that. He should just say the mother is Ashara that way people stop wondering who it is. Isn't it more risky for Ned to keep the question open for people to keep wondering and looking for answers until maybe they stumble upon the truth? Doesn't that put Jon's life at risk? Saying Ashara is Jon's mother is the surest and safest way of putting any other rumors to bed and keeping Jon safe.

Could be a couple of things. One, Ned may have started the Wylla tale before anyone connected him to Ashara, or maybe before she even died. In hindsight, it ties in with their dance at Harrenhal, and people just filled in the imaginary details on their own.

And second, whether it was intentional or by accident, the Ashara story provides an important psychological slight-of-hand to cover up the real story. If people think they have already caught Ned in a lie over his version or events, they aren't likely to think any deeper about it. It's a two-layered deception that satisfies the emotional need for people to suspect some hidden truth, while at the same time letting them snicker over someone who pretends to be so highly moral and honorable but in reality is just like everyone else. If Ned had just gone with the Ashara lie, some people might suspect that was a lie, and that might lead them to the real truth.

[Frey family reunion]

On 3/23/2024 at 6:20 PM, Sly Wren said:

Or: give them something easy to look for. 

If Ned says "Wylla" but others think "Ashara--because they danced at Harrenhal"--then people think they've solved the mystery and look no further.

That would assume Ned would plot like that--which may be a stretch. Ned's go to move seems to be silence when it comes to secrets.

But the fact that he gives any name for Jon's mother. . . that he doesn't just keep silent. That may mean he isn't the only one who his keeping this secret.

I’m of the camp that Ned isn’t some mastermind using layers of deceit to keep Jon safe.  I think the answer is much simpler.  

Assuming that Ned and Howland brought Jon to Starfall, then Wylla was Jon’s wetnurse who kept him fed.  (Now what happened to Wylla’s child is a good question. ) 

But regardless, if Jon was in fact Lyanna’s child, and Ned wanted to keep that fact a secret, then the easiest explanation at Starfall was that Wylla was Jon’s mother.  Ned makes the false affirmation at Starfall naming both himself and Wylla as Jon’s parents.

Lying and false affirmations don’t come easy for Ned, so when he arrives with the child at Winterfell, he just makes it known that Jon is his blood and his son and uses his prerogative as Lord of Winterfell not to speak of it further.  

The only one that Ned ever actually has to answer to is his King, Robert.  So that’s why Ned is forced to repeat the lie he told in Starfall when he first falsely affirmed Jon as his son.

[Green Stag]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

’m of the camp that Ned isn’t some mastermind using layers of deceit to keep Jon safe.  I think the answer is much simpler.  

Assuming that Ned and Howland brought Jon to Starfall, then Wylla was Jon’s wetnurse who kept him fed.  (Now what happened to Wylla’s child is a good question. ) 

But regardless, if Jon was in fact Lyanna’s child, and Ned wanted to keep that fact a secret, then the easiest explanation at Starfall was that Wylla was Jon’s mother.  Ned makes the false affirmation at Starfall naming both himself and Wylla as Jon’s parents.

Lying and false affirmations don’t come easy for Ned, so when he arrives with the child at Winterfell, he just makes it known that Jon is his blood and his son and uses his prerogative as Lord of Winterfell not to speak of it further.  

The only one that Ned ever actually has to answer to is his King, Robert.  So that’s why Ned is forced to repeat the lie he told in Starfall when he first falsely affirmed Jon as his son.

I mostly agree with this.  The more complex you make a lie, the more difficult it is to keep straight.

As you say, the only person Ned MUST answer is Robert, and this is apparently the only time he mentions a mother/Wylla.  

However I do think Ned is a bit complex with his honor, and he does have some common sense.  He in no way would wish to insult Ashara's honor, and bastards born to a noble woman a bit different:  Edric Storm receives name-day gifts in his father's name and is educated as if he were a noble vs Mya Stone who is not acknowledged and ferries people on mules.  If Ashara was named as Jon's mother Cat may be more inclined to insist on Ned trying to arrange for him to be a ward at Starfall (which seems a valid argument / request).  Jon would definitely ask about Ashara if he thought she was his mother, and might also wish to try and go to Starfall at some point.  

Bottom line I think using Ashara's name potentially opens the door for more questions, which Ned doesn't want.

Edited March 25 by Green Stag