The Great Hunt

[Xanrn]

Well Aes Sedia are know to spank rulers who misbehave.

Casduane seems to have spanked most of the ruling rulers.

Yes Rand's love square is pretty messed up, but I like to think its a product of his being Ta'vern.

[Zoë Sumra]

I'm not sure how danger of assault etc relates to how equal the culture is? Even if the society was matriarchal I'm not sure that would mean there weren't dangers for women in certain situations.

It's reckoned, in our society, to have a massive correlation. Fundamentally, assaults disproportionally affecting women relate to an assumption that women are lesser and therefore deserving of assault if they do not behave in a sexually or physically subservient manner, or that their average physical weakness compared with men translates into a right to assault them because they are unlikely to be able to retaliate and nobody who can retaliate will complain (or the likelihood that the assault will be blamed on the woman), or that assaults on women are women's business and therefore unimportant, or that women are expected by society to be compliant in non-assault situations (conversation, social, etc.) and therefore both their submission to assault/non-retaliation to it and the actual likelihood of the assault occurring is more likely than if they were not conditioned to be so compliant.

[Slurktan]

Actually, they are quite influential and can destroy property and attack people they dislike pretty freely even in Andor as of the time of the series (see TEoTW). They are a very serious rival to the Tower for international influence. Think about it - non-channelers rivalling channelers who are also backed by the oldest bank in Randland.

Errr... what? Whitecloak influence at the series' start extends from Amadicia into Tarabon slightly, Ghealdan slightly, Altara slightly, and Andor slightly. That's it, most of that is them acting tough far away from the capitals of said nations. The Aes Sedai influence everywhere besides Amadicia and Tear. It's not even remotely comparable.

And as to the King/Queen replacing being a myth, again I have to say .... what? We see the King of one of the 4 most powerful nations in Randland kidnapped by the Tower(actually half of it). We see the fricken Dragon Reborn kidnapped for pete's sake.

[ljkeane]

It's reckoned, in our society, to have a massive correlation. Fundamentally, assaults disproportionally affecting women relate to an assumption that women are lesser and therefore deserving of assault if they do not behave in a sexually or physically subservient manner, or that their average physical weakness compared with men translates into a right to assault them because they are unlikely to be able to retaliate and nobody who can retaliate will complain (or the likelihood that the assault will be blamed on the woman)

I think there are different forms of assault and I'd certainly agree that the disporportionate impact on women of some of those forms of assault is the result of sexism in society/individuals, for example I think with something like domestic violence this would obviously be the case.

Having said that the books don't really address issues like that, the risks in the books seem to largely relate to the risks of being mugged etc in certain areas. I think regardless of the matriarchal nature or otherwise of a society a 10 stone woman (or man) would be a more attractive victim to a potential mugger than a 15 stone man and in the only actual example of this happening in the books I can think of ultimately it was women who saved a man.

[Galactus]

Umm... no. It was actually egalitarian on the whole, with military power of the men balancing the OP power of the small minority of women, until men got that too. Now they are ahead again. I find it funny that people consider this society "matriarchal" when non-channeling women are constrained at every turn the way men aren't. Far Madding excluded.

To your Queen of Andor I give Tairen High Lords, Illian's Council of Nine and King (all of which are male).My most hated male characters: a draw between Gawyn, Masema and Whitecloaks with talking parts.

The Empress of the Seanchan is female, as is her heir and they have been so for centuries (and conversations imply that while becoming an Emperor isn't *impossible* it would be harder, just like becoming ruling Queen wasn't impossible in 17th-18th century Europe) There's a king of Arad Doman, but the ruling houses that elect him are all headed by women. There's a queen of Saldea and of... What's the other Borderland? Kandor? Far Madding and Eboud Dar seems mainly ruled by women as well.

So yes, i'd consider it matriarchal in the same sense that our modern world is patriarchal: Men and women can both aspire to rule, but women seems to have an advantage in doing so. (and again, to which degree depends on particular locality)

To your White Tower I give the Whitecloaks.

The Whitecloaks while influential are specifically described as being less than the Tower (although trying their darndest not to be) it's specifically mentioned that if ordered, Niall would show up for an audience if asked. Although he'd be plotting murder every step of the way.

[Poobah]

If we're going to have a full-blown spoileriffic argument then this should be split off and thrown into one of the wheel of time threads, or get one of its own.

[Jaxom 1974]

Eh. Doesn't bother me. I skim a lot of what you guys are saying. I'm finding some of it quite interesting.

[Slurktan]

Eh. Doesn't bother me. I skim a lot of what you guys are saying. I'm finding some of it quite interesting.

You said earlier in the thread that you didn't mind spoilers so I didn't tag mine from my last post. If you want I will though.

[Jaxom 1974]

It's all good. I don't truck with all that blacking out. (That and I've been perusing Wiki for info too... :P )

Now then...I gotta say that, while I'm not grabbed in a way that compels me to just read read read this book, it's a lot more fun (as I said before) than the first one. There's more to it. This whole game concept in that city Rand ends up in where he finds Thom is one of the more interesting things I've come across and wouldn't mind if there was more to it than that...then there's the Seanchan...they're peaking my interest as welll...

[Tarapas Amran]

The one with Niall showing up for an audience always sounded more lika saying than a truth, I have a hard time seeing Niall going to the Tower, I mean many (WC) sees people who have been in the tower as tainted, no matter channeling. It would severly weaken his political clout within his organization. But as a metaphor to describe the respect the Tower commands it is great.

[Galactus]

Speaking of TGH, anyone else liked the entire alternate lives flashback thingies? I'm a sucker for alternate realities, both the ones that Rand gets and the ones from the Accepted tests are really fun.

[Poobah]

Yeah they were quite nice and I liked them especially because they were -alternatives- rather than more bloody prophecy; I'm generally not a fan of the stuff that appears all too often in WoT - blatant "LOOK AT THIS, IT'S SIGNIFICANT 'FORESHADOWING'" kind of thing eg. Min's various 'Viewings' which try way too hard to be mysterious and prophetic and then all the various out-right prophecies. There's just so much out there screaming at the top of its lungs that it's Very Significant and that we should ponder it for years on end while RJ cackles "RAFO" that it's always got on my nerves. These, on the other hand, are just nice, cool extras, and while they give insight into the characters they don't actually mean anything as such. RJ can do the subtle kind of foreshadowing too, which is why I hate the other sort - eg. Tuon is mentioned in TGH and she'll show up eventually... I really wish the same had applied to Cadsuane, also Perrin's meeting with the White Cloaks in TEotW, mentions of Logain and Taim as far back as TEotW and so fourth.

[Renasko]

So you'd have preferred for the author to give clues to every-fucking-thing?

Personally, that's one aspects of the books I really liked it. It keeps you reading, and wondering about what is going to happen, rather than knowing, like in some fantasy books, which is what sets apart the great books from the merely good ones.

[MaesterLuwin]

Personally, that's one aspects of the books I really liked it. It keeps you reading, and wondering about what is going to happen, rather than knowing, like in some fantasy books, which is what sets apart the great books from the merely good ones.

I like that as well. Jordan gives enough clues that I'm fairly certain what's going to happen in the final three volumes, but not exactly how it's going to happen or why. We know that

SPOILER: False dragon

Logain is going to receive a great deal of glory

but not the circumstances, and that's what makes Jordan's prophecies interesting...

...as long as they live up to their potential. For example,

SPOILER: tinker with a sword

that thing with evil Aram was built up for books and books, but when it actually happened it was dealt with in about two paragraphs and seemed pretty lame, compared to the amount of dreams Egwene had had about the guy

.

Regardless, I'm pretty sure when Rand spills his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul it's going to make that much more of an impact because it's been built up since Thom told us in Book 2. Hell, Rand knows he is going to have to spill his blood, and I think it's interesting to read about a character that at least believes he knows his own fate.

[Poobah]

So you'd have preferred for the author to give clues to every-fucking-thing?

Personally, that's one aspects of the books I really liked it. It keeps you reading, and wondering about what is going to happen, rather than knowing, like in some fantasy books, which is what sets apart the great books from the merely good ones.

No I'd have preferred it if the author did not give clues to "every-fucking-thing" as he does.

[Shryke]

The "Tinker With A Sword" thing is, imo, the perfect example of why Knife of Dreams was kinda crappy to me. So much of the book was like this.

Foreshadowed events are finally payed out, but done overly quickly and not as good as they could have been. It's obvious he was in a rush and I think the story suffers for it.

[Xanrn]

Well

SPOILER:

I thought Aram dying was because Perrin refuses to accept his fate and just whines

Alot of Mins viewings are pointless, just little tidbits of what will happen in the future.

I hate the Seanchan, really they seriously disgust me.

The whole damane thing is just disgusting to the extreme, they pretty much manage to tick every box in the Evil Bastards checklist, except the worship an Evil Dark Lord. Then they are convinced of their own righteousness which is just the icing on the cake.

[fionwe1987]

Well

SPOILER:

I thought Aram dying was because Perrin refuses to accept his fate and just whines

Alot of Mins viewings are pointless, just little tidbits of what will happen in the future.

I hate the Seanchan, really they seriously disgust me.

The whole damane thing is just disgusting to the extreme, they pretty much manage to tick every box in the Evil Bastards checklist, except the worship an Evil Dark Lord. Then they are convinced of their own righteousness which is just the icing on the cake.

Well I don't hold with the Seanchan either, but I think one of RJ's greatest achievements has been that he was able to write such an alien and disgusting (by normal modern standards) civilization so convincingly. Most alien civilizations seem irrational to me. There is no reason given in story why these cultures tick, why they feel proud of themselves and wish to spread their beliefs.

With the Seanchan, you can understand. Sure, the whole damane thing is beyond disgusting, but given that we know that the Aes Sedai of the Seanchan continent were more or less a bunch of Hitlers, it isn't surprising at all that the Senachan treat women who can channel the way they do. The same with their royal family. The betrayal of the White Tower, the implication that Bonhwin had the murder of Luthair's mom arranged... can you really call their hatred of channelers irrational?

And then there's the fact that except for the Borderlands and Andor, most nations in Randland care less about the law and the rights of the common people than the Seanchan do. Seanchan slavery is a horrible concept, but slaves have upward mobility and there are slaves who wield more power than many nobles. You can come out of slavery if you are of service to the empire, as well.

Contrast this with Tear, where the High Lord's can kill who they want with no consequences and there is no way a peasant can ever be anything but a peasant.

In the end, the Seanchan are still disgusting, but there are aspects of the culture that are worth admiring. That Jordan cold do this is amazing.

[Jaxom 1974]

Well I don't hold with the Seanchan either, but I think one of RJ's greatest achievements has been that he was able to write such an alien and disgusting (by normal modern standards) civilization so convincingly. Most alien civilizations seem irrational to me. There is no reason given in story why these cultures tick, why they feel proud of themselves and wish to spread their beliefs.

I don't know that I "like" what I've seen of the Seanchan so far in The Great Hunt, but at the same time I think that there's something worth seeing how they're going to be played out too...

[Humble Asskicker]

I agree with fion on this one (I guess that makes one out of five gajillion, if we're keeping count on the discussions :lol: ).

The Seanchan are utterly believable as a society. They remind me of feudal Japan, which they are clearly based upon, in part.

They aren't written to be liked, obviously. They are written to evoke precisely the distaste that Xarn expressed. But it's not just some prosaic agenda to have a villain, as Xarn claims. They have a rationale for believing what they believe and acting as they act, and none of it is merely mustache-twirling. To put it succinctly: what fion said.

So convincing + effectively written = good, in my book.