The Great Hunt

[Renasko]

I don't know, some of the sub-plots were a little unbearable, featuring the above mentioned Perrin who up to the 'hunt' thing, he was one of the best characters. Only Mat has 'survived', for me. The rest have annoyed me in some way or another, but I find it not worth examining, as it just makes the characters all the more realistic and worth reading.

[Guy Kilmore]

Lots of semi spoiling stuff

You might want to black some of that stuff out, because I think Jaxom hasn't read this series through yet.

[Indigo Cloak]

I love Rand and will not have a word said against him. Though, at this point, he is far too passive, though I see his reaction as shell-shocked rather than whiney. Bring on tSR! I won't have a customary defense of Rand discussion, though, not until you get to WH at least and see him slightly more mature and also more flawed.

[Guest Nadine]

Rand's, and the other males' passivity in response to female dominance is a twisted reflection of RJ's own fucked up sexuality. (He has stated all the women are based on his wife, which makes all his female chars horribly alike, and makes his wife someone I'd never want to meet.)

I actually like book 4 the best, for the ancient history shown. I have been re-reading the series again to get caught up for the next release and am on book two. RJ may have had his faults as a writer, but he had strengths too. I love how I can find so many hints on re-reads. Though I guess most of it should have been obvious from the start. :P

Actually, as a sidebar, I don't like to try to guess where the plot is going. If I guess wrong, I am always dissapointed and if I am right, I am bored. Because of that, I do re-read my books quite often and usually have more fun on each read.

[Jaxom 1974]

You might want to black some of that stuff out, because I think Jaxom hasn't read this series through yet.

Appreciate the sentiment, but spoilers aren't going to bother me at this point. It's an 11+ book series that talk about and references from abound across this Forum. Sure there might be some things I wouldn't want to know, but at the same time, I probably have seen it already anyway. On the plus side, I don't know when I'll get to Book 3 and I've got a wicked crappy short term memory. :P

[Xanrn]

Rand's, and the other males' passivity in response to female dominance is a twisted reflection of RJ's own fucked up sexuality. (He has stated all the women are based on his wife, which makes all his female chars horribly alike, and makes his wife someone I'd never want to meet.)

I actually like book 4 the best, for the ancient history shown. I have been re-reading the series again to get caught up for the next release and am on book two. RJ may have had his faults as a writer, but he had strengths too. I love how I can find so many hints on re-reads. Though I guess most of it should have been obvious from the start. :P

Actually, as a sidebar, I don't like to try to guess where the plot is going. If I guess wrong, I am always dissapointed and if I am right, I am bored. Because of that, I do re-read my books quite often and usually have more fun on each read.

Yeah thats another thing that has struck me on my re-read, Goodkind apparantly ripped off the oversexualised bondage dom/sub stuff aswell, just went further with it.

Vague Spoilers which don't relate to the plot much, just background world building.

The way certain Aes Sedai treat there Warders, especially in the later books...

The whole Seanchan damane thing, da'covale thing.

"Toy" and "Pretties"

"You belong to ........" from the 4th/5th book.

Rand's ridiculus love mash up.

Saldean women apparantly love to be grabbed by the scruff of their neck, to proove who is stronger.

Far Madding Wives apparantly whip their husbands so much, Inn Keepers supply leather straps with every room.

Andor being the oldest and most stable country because it only has Queens.

The Wierd Sea Folk marriage protocol.

The sodding hillarious ceremony to

SPOILER:

raise a new Amyrlin Seat, where all the Woman strip down their hips to proove they are Women, while stating "I am a Woman", completely ignoring the fact they can see the glow of Saidar in other women and only women who can channel become Aes Sedai

The becoming first sisters/brothers ceremony.

The fact that pretty much everything involves been whipped, usually while naked at some point.

Apparantly most of the ceremonies involve getting naked, or rather most of the female ceremonies.

Reading the Wheel of the Time is like being shown something cool/interesting/awesome and then being slapped, repeated add nauseam through the entire series.

Sorry btw Jaxom though everyone had read Wheel of Time by now or atleast the first few books.

Also there are plenty of bad things to say about Rand, most of all his complete misuse of Mat from book 6 onwards.

[Tears of Lys]

/snip all the B&D and S&M stuff.

That's pretty funny, actually, and all true. Jordan's creation was loaded with a strange mixture of prim-and-proper and then weird excess. I remember being surprised several times by how things veered into ultra violent and kinky when you least expected it.

:head spins:

And disappointingly, the sexual stuff was strangely asexual feeling.

[Gabriele]

And disappointingly, the sexual stuff was strangely asexual feeling.

I actually got the same not-erotic vibe from what little I've read of Goodkind despite him being more graphic. In the end those are teenage boy fantasies. ;)

I beta for a friend who writes kinky naughties for Torquere, and I can tell you that stuff is hot. :smileysex:

[drawkcabi]

SPOILER: WOT character I hate the most and why

Egwene. Out of all the women she just bugs me the most in the first 10 books. She has all the negative chacteristics of Jordan's other female characters but she's an unabashed suck up as well. In EOTW she sucks up to Nyneve because she's the wisdom, then Moriane comes along and Egwene becomes her pet and gets uppity with Nyneve, then when she encounters the Aiel wise women she does the same thing and shrugs off Moraine. She's finally raised to Amyrlin Seat so she can pretty much boss everyone around which is what she was born to do. Only in KoD does my annoyance of Egwene slack off as her stubborn nature is pretty fun when being held in Tar Valon.

[Guest Nadine]

Drawk, interesting. My least favorite is Suane Sanch and for the same reasons as your dislike - toadying when not in power and tyranical when in power. Very insultng.

Agreed on the sex stuff. Its so hardcore but silly. I always hated the love triangle? square? to be the grossest form of wish fulfilment.

[MaesterLuwin]

To contrast all this, Min is probably my favorite female character in the books. I almost wish she didn't have her special powers, but for once I'd like to see a normal non-channeling female in Randland. Min has a sense of humor, which no woman who can channel seems to have, and is the only woman to not have this "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to gender differences.

I guess all the main characters have special powers, now that I think about it. The non-channeling ones like Min, Mat and Perrin get perks of their own. Secondary characters like Faile and Lan are at least heirs to thrones. Hell, Thom Merrilin might be the most "normal" out of all the major characters.

[Shryke]

Drawk, interesting. My least favorite is Suane Sanch and for the same reasons as your dislike - toadying when not in power and tyranical when in power. Very insultng.

Agreed on the sex stuff. Its so hardcore but silly. I always hated the love triangle? square? to be the grossest form of wish fulfilment.

It's just consistent characterization.

[drawkcabi]

Drawk, interesting. My least favorite is Suane Sanch and for the same reasons as your dislike - toadying when not in power and tyranical when in power. Very insultng.

Agreed on the sex stuff. Its so hardcore but silly. I always hated the love triangle? square? to be the grossest form of wish fulfilment.

I liked Suane in the beginning...

SPOILER: character info

Don't know if I need to be spoiler tagging this or not, better safe than sorry though. Anyway she was a no-nonsense leader but she seemed to want what was best for all, it wasn't until she lost her powers and her seat that she became annoyingly stubborn and childish like the other female characters.

ETA:

Also not a fan of the menage a whatevers, I always enjoy romance in books when it's one on one, don't mind one character pining after one in another relationship, just if the relationships become simultaneous things get creepy.

[Galactus]

I always read the screwed up gender relations as kind of a result of the different socities: Randland is matriarchal, in the same way that our modern society is patriarchal (IE: While it doesen't completely *exclude* men from all venues of power, it is still heavily slanted towards female power)

[Poobah]

To contrast all this, Min is probably my favorite female character in the books. I almost wish she didn't have her special powers, but for once I'd like to see a normal non-channeling female in Randland.

Oh God yes please. I have to hate Min because she's a walking talking plot-device; if she weren't then she'd probably be one of my favourites too.

[Maia]

I always read the screwed up gender relations as kind of a result of the different socities: Randland is matriarchal, in the same way that our modern society is patriarchal

Umm... no. It was actually egalitarian on the whole, with military power of the men balancing the OP power of the small minority of women, until men got that too. Now they are ahead again. I find it funny that people consider this society "matriarchal" when non-channeling women are constrained at every turn the way men aren't. Far Madding excluded.

To your Queen of Andor I give Tairen High Lords, Illian's Council of Nine and King (all of which are male).

To your Altara I give you Amadicia.

To your White Tower I give the Whitecloaks.

And Min... sorry, but she is basically a doormat focussed on getting and keeping her man to the exclusion of most everything else. A wish-fulfillment character for some, to be sure... ;).

My most hated female characters: a draw between Faile, Sevanna and Elaida.

My most hated male characters: a draw between Gawyn, Masema and Whitecloaks with talking parts.

[ljkeane]

Umm... no. It was actually egalitarian on the whole, with military power of the men balancing the OP power of the small minority of women, until men got that too. Now they are ahead again. I find it funny that people consider this society "matriarchal" when non-channeling women are constrained at every turn the way men aren't. Far Madding excluded.

I'm not sure I agree about that, around half of the countries we see have female rulers or at least seem to have had female rulers in the past. The two most powerful roles before Rand arrived were the Seanchan ruler and the Amyrlin both of which have consistently been women (obviously with the Amyrlin).

I'm not sure that I'd describe the culture as totally matriarchal but I certainly wouldn't describe men as ahead of women or say that non channeling women are constrained at every turn.

[Slurktan]

To your Queen of Andor I give Tairen High Lords, Illian's Council of Nine and King (all of which are male).

To your Altara I give you Amadicia.

To your White Tower I give the Whitecloaks.

There are Tairen High Ladies on screen so to speak so not sure where you got that from. There is nothing to say that the Council of Nine couldn't be women as well. I haven't read the BWEB in a long time but is there something in it which leads you to believe the throne of Illian must need a King? The Whitecloaks are the obvious exception but of course they are treated as annoyances by countries other than Amadicia. You compared that with the Aes Sedai who are known to replace Kings and Queens if they so choose.

[Maia]

There are Tairen High Ladies on screen so to speak so not sure where you got that from.

It has been specifically mentioned that women very seldom become High Ladies, that while not totally impossible, it is very rare.

Council of Nine are all men - what are the odds that it is all by chance? I don't remember a past Queen of Amadicia or Illian being mentioned ever, so...

The Whitecloaks are the obvious exception but of course they are treated as annoyances by countries other than Amadicia.

Actually, they are quite influential and can destroy property and attack people they dislike pretty freely even in Andor as of the time of the series (see TEoTW). They are a very serious rival to the Tower for international influence. Think about it - non-channelers rivalling channelers who are also backed by the oldest bank in Randland.

Military power is also exclusively in hands of men everywhere except for Seanchan, so even when the ruler is a woman, the male generals still have a lot of power.

You compared that with the Aes Sedai who are known to replace Kings and Queens if they so choose.

Outdated myths, largely. Whitecloaks try to do the same, BTW, but they don't quite have the finesse. Pedron Niall was certainly attempting to do it during the series - that's why WCs were on the Almoth Plain. And there were several attempts in a not-too-distant-past, aka Whitecloak Wars.

Re: Seanchan Empresses, I strongly suspect that their throne is a ter'angreal that only works for women. Still, there is no law against a man succeeding, IIRC.

And if you look at the early books, women walking by themselves certainly seem to be in danger of molestation/assault in many places in Randland. That's before the huge troubles really started, BTW.

So, yes, it is very far from matriarchate. Equality, more or less, with men being rather ahead of non-channeling women, butthe few channelers kinda making up for it.

My least favorite is Suane Sanch and for the same reasons as your dislike - toadying when not in power and tyranical when in power.

Siuan is one of the very few characters with a clue and she risked her power, her life and even sacrificed her pride trying to keep the things on track. I actually like her a lot. Sure, RJ just had to throw some childishness into the mix - but he couldn't help himself with any of the female characters in that regard... ;).

[ljkeane]

Military power is also exclusively in hands of men everywhere except for Seanchan, so even when the ruler is a woman, the male generals still have a lot of power.

I wouldn't describe military power as being exclusively in the hands of men, female nobles etc are still able to command military support. That the majority of the soldiers etc are men is not entirely unreasonable in a pre industrial society, at least when Jordan includes female soldiers he tries to do so in manner that addresses some of the issues involved (something I find annoying when other authors ignore them).

Re: Seanchan Empresses, I strongly suspect that their throne is a ter'angreal that only works for women. Still, there is no law against a man succeeding, IIRC.

I believe there were male rulers in the past, there just haven't been any for several hundred years.

And if you look at the early books, women walking by themselves certainly seem to be in danger of molestation/assault in many places in Randland. That's before the huge troubles really started, BTW.

So, yes, it is very far from matriarchate. Equality, more or less, with men being rather ahead of non-channeling women, butthe few channelers kinda making up for it.

I'm not sure how danger of assault etc relates to how equal the culture is? Even if the society was matriarchal I'm not sure that would mean there weren't dangers for women in certain situations.

I really don't agree that men are ahead of non channneling women, the majority of the nations described seem to either have women in positions of authority or women are certainly allowed in to positions of authority. The few examples where women are denied access to the top roles are counterbalanced by examples were men are denied access to the highest positions of power.