The Great Hunt

[Maia]

I think regardless of the matriarchal nature or otherwise of a society a 10 stone woman (or man) would be a more attractive victim to a potential mugger than a 15 stone man

That's not how it happened IRL in hierarchial societies where one ethnicity/caste/class is set about another. It didn't matter whether the member of socially higher placed group looked soft and vulnerable - in most cases they were left strictly alone out of fearof reprecussions. Like for instance various British, including adventurous tourist women in the colonies during the height of the British Empire or bratty young sprogs or whatever. So, yes, women commonly being in danger of assault and rape in most of Randland, including Andor shows quite conclusively that it is not a matriarchate.

Galactus:

The Empress of the Seanchan is female, as is her heir and they have been so for centuries (and conversations imply that while becoming an Emperor isn't *impossible* it would be harder, just like becoming ruling Queen wasn't impossible in 17th-18th century Europe)

But unlike IRL there are no laws making it harder, IIRC. In fact, we have no clue how this came to pass. I suspect it is because the Crystal Throne only worke for women.

There's a king of Arad Doman, but the ruling houses that elect him are all headed by women.

But he is the ruler. IMHO, it is one of the parade examples when equality is being mistaken for matriarchy, cause we are so used to the patriarchy.

There's a queen of Saldea and of... What's the other Borderland? Kandor? Far Madding and Eboud Dar seems mainly ruled by women as well.

All of these places apart from Far Madding have gender neutral succession and the current incumbent happens to be a woman. In every case, the next heir is a man. Far Madding is the only truly matriarchal society in the books, although Ebu Dar also has some elements.

So yes, i'd consider it matriarchal in the same sense that our modern world is patriarchal: Men and women can both aspire to rule, but women seems to have an advantage in doing so.

Not really, IMHO. Randland's political figures are gender-balanced, much more than even those in modern West ;).

[ljkeane]

That's not how it happened IRL in hierarchial societies where one ethnicity/caste/class is set about another. It didn't matter whether the member of socially higher placed group looked soft and vulnerable - in most cases they were left strictly alone out of fearof reprecussions. Like for instance various British, including adventurous tourist women in the colonies during the height of the British Empire or bratty young sprogs or whatever. So, yes, women commonly being in danger of assault and rape in most of Randland, including Andor shows quite conclusively that it is not a matriarchate.

I don't agree with that at all, even in a patriarchal society with far more class division like our own in the past wealthy men were still vulnerable to be mugged/assaulted in certain areas that were dangerous. Just because someone is a member of a dominant group in society doesn't mean that they are not vulnerable to being victims of crime in certain circumstances.

[Galactus]

I never got the Feudal Japan vibe from the Seanchan, if anything they were the Ottomans.

But unlike IRL there are no laws making it harder, IIRC. In fact, we have no clue how this came to pass. I suspect it is because the Crystal Throne only worke for women.

Again, I'm not saying that WOT is matriarchal the way 18th century society was patriarchal: I'm saying that WoT is matriarchal the way *our current* society is patriarchal.

[Zoë Sumra]

IMHO, it is one of the parade examples when equality is being mistaken for matriarchy, cause we are so used to the patriarchy.

Very true, and also true of some other spec fic books.

[fionwe1987]

I don't know that I "like" what I've seen of the Seanchan so far in The Great Hunt, but at the same time I think that there's something worth seeing how they're going to be played out too...

They don't get well developed till the later books. Another reason to keep reading!

I agree with fion on this one (I guess that makes one out of five gajillion, if we're keeping count on the discussions :lol: ).

The Seanchan are utterly believable as a society. They remind me of feudal Japan, which they are clearly based upon, in part.

They aren't written to be liked, obviously. They are written to evoke precisely the distaste that Xarn expressed. But it's not just some prosaic agenda to have a villain, as Xarn claims. They have a rationale for believing what they believe and acting as they act, and none of it is merely mustache-twirling. To put it succinctly: what fion said.

So convincing + effectively written = good, in my book.

Thanks!

[Jaxom 1974]

I never got the Feudal Japan vibe from the Seanchan, if anything they were the Ottomans.

Now you're just mixing Os-Threads and that could be a bad bad thing... :P

[Prince Who Was Promised]

Just outta curiosity, how far are you in the book, Jax?

[Jaxom 1974]

Just outta curiosity, how far are you in the book, Jax?

I've actually got a little less than 200 pages to go. Sadly, I left the book on the kitchen counter when we walked out of the house this morning to drive to Ohio. So I won't be finishing until early next week. :unsure:

[Prince Who Was Promised]

It's been quiet. I'm guessing you've finished?

[Guest Nadine]

On book 5 of the reread and minor questions have come up

-what do you do with a Fade's sword once you have killed it?

-if Aes Sedai live for centuries, that gives them time to grow personality wise, and really, with that much living you are going to change so...what if you turn 125 and want to change Ajahs?

[Guest Nadine]

OOOOOOHHH!!! I couldn't resist the email selling the prolouge and just finished it. Well, now its VERY clear that I must finish the re-read before trying the books. I think RJ must have written the prologue because its dead on. But....shit happened and RJ never really had the hang of that. Anyone else read it?

[fionwe1987]

OOOOOOHHH!!! I couldn't resist the email selling the prolouge and just finished it. Well, now its VERY clear that I must finish the re-read before trying the books. I think RJ must have written the prologue because its dead on. But....shit happened and RJ never really had the hang of that. Anyone else read it?

I did, but I don't know what you mean by shit happens. Quite a lot did happen, and some of it was of very major significance. It also set the tone for the book, and did a great job of it too.

[Guest Nadine]

I did, but I don't know what you mean by shit happens. Quite a lot did happen, and some of it was of very major significance. It also set the tone for the book, and did a great job of it too.

I phrased that very poorly. I ment that OMG, it wasn't 150 pages of sniffing and skirt smoothing. I haven't been this excited for a WoT book since....highschool. Like twenty years ago.

[Poobah]

-if Aes Sedai live for centuries, that gives them time to grow personality wise, and really, with that much living you are going to change so...what if you turn 125 and want to change Ajahs?

They never grow; they remain locked as bitchy, petulant teenagers for centuries.

[Guest Nadine]

They never grow; they remain locked as bitchy, petulant teenagers for centuries.

:rofl:

Much too early to laugh this hard.

[cseresz]

I ment that OMG, it wasn't 150 pages of sniffing and skirt smoothing.

"Oh yes, he was also talking about the prologue and how RJ did also a lot of work on that. My impression was 100 pages prologue, 100 pages perhaps in between and 100 pages ending by RJ.

Anyway he is rearranging stuff. For example removes sections of the prologue and expands them and makes a new chapter of it. So that the stuff RJ wrote is a bit spread out through the book. If I understand correctly." from Isabel

[cseresz]

-if Aes Sedai live for centuries, that gives them time to grow personality wise, and really, with that much living you are going to change so...what if you turn 125 and want to change Ajahs?

LoC, chapter 30:

SPOILER: Leane

"Myrelle was kind enough to find me and let me know," Leane said into the momentary silence. "I think I am going to choose Green."

Nynaeve choked around her spoon. "What do you mean? Can you change Ajahs?"

"No, you cannot," Siuan told her. "But what the Hall decided is that although we are Aes Sedai, for a time we weren’t. And since they insist on believing that codswallop was legal, all our ties, binds, associations and titles went overboard." Her voice was wry enough to rasp wood. "Tomorrow I ask the Blues whether they’ll have me back. I’ve never heard of an Ajah turning anybody down - by the time you’re raised from Accepted, you’ve been guided to the right Ajah whether you know it or not - but the way matters are proceeding, I wouldn’t be completely surprised if they slammed the door on my foot."

[Rhom]

In the last few books... the prologues were the only parts of the books where stuff did happen IIRC.

As to changing over the centuries... we can say that they would because people change over the 70-80 years of their lives. But in fantasy, isn't it generally the accepted stereotype tha the long lived races (elves, dwarves, dragons, etc) are the ones that never change? So in this sense, the AS are essentially a different race and could thereby reasonably be expected not to change.

[Galactus]

I was always under the assumption that there was more to earning the shawl than just a ceremony and swearing the oaths (at the very least something like the Accepted test seems obvious) and that the selection of Ajah was at least somewhat based on whatever test you went through (although obviously they had a fair hand at spotting likely candidates before that)

[Usotsuki]

Have you read New Spring (The extended disco remix)?

SPOILER: New Springiness

It shows the test for the shawl as a standard test for all the aspiring spankers and spankees. Completing a series of specific weaves in order whilst experiencing a number of distressing events.