[Book Spoilers] EP103 Discussion

[Kaitscralt]

Okay, I don't have time right now for a full review but here are a few things that were bothering me:

Sansa and Arya and Eddard talking about the Hound. I'm not sure if Sandor has even been introduced as 'the Hound' yet, and there is no reason for the non-reader to make that connection. They probably are wondering who it is or why they're talking about a direwolf.

Similarly, after Eddard only says 'Lord Baelish,' at the council meeting, Catelyn then refers to him as 'Petyr' to Eddard when Littlefinger's not there. So non-readers may be saying "Who is Petyr?" Even moreso, in the next scene her and Eddard are talking about 'Littlefinger' without ever explaining the name or who they are referencing. Don't give the non-reader too much credit!

(I did have to let my dog out around this time so perhaps I missed an explanation or clearer defining that Lord Baelish = Petyr = Littlefinger.)

Finally, when the bloodrider has the whip around Viserys' neck, the hand maiden is translating for him, and she keeps saying, 'the Khal wants to know if you want him dead.' 'The khal this, the khal that.' Was I mishearing her? Was she saying something else? Or was she referencing Drogo despite him not being in the scene, as if he had told them to go and attack Viserys? Or was it just an oversight on the writers part?

I was a bit distracted during some of this episode, so if my three points are off then please correct me.

[Kilroy]

All of this has been mentioned already so I guess I'm typing it for my own benefit.

The pacing of the story is very odd. As a viewer, if I had not read the books, I would not know how much time had passed. I would know some time had passed but would have no idea how much and hence I would be confused by the interaction of some characters.

Also they will eventually have to start flashing up location names in the top left when their story starts to really spread out. Understand where the hell you are in the realm is important and just showing locations without some help will mean that viewers without the reading background may wonder where they are.

I believe they left out very important parts of the book that really had no good reason to be left out because putting them in would have taken no real time at all.

Examples:

Dany when in the big grass getting attacked by Visy. In the books we know it is "her" that tells them to take his horse and make him walk. By "she" saying it it implies she is growing a spine against her brother and that she is beginning to not fear him. But by making her Dothraki guard do it it doesn't give me the same impression that she is really getting stronger towards Visy.

The interaction showing Dany is pregnant was also odd since we know why it happens in the book that a couple of months earlier she had a very special moment with Drogo under the sky. I think they missed that special moment. The pregnancy doesn't seem as important in the scene if it wasn't for Mormont getting up and leaving suddenly.

They could have eluded in their dialog to each other (Catelyn and Ser Rodrik Cassel) that they came by ship and that the ship got them there quickly. I don't really see why they changed that time line. She could still be coming into the city with the ship docks in the background. Then after going to a "stock inn" which we know they have as sets, she is confronted by the guard and escorted to Littlefinger in the brothel. I thought the trip by sea was important to show how they get there so fast.

I also agree that the Arya scene seemed less personal and more just a pep talk from Ned to Arya. Could have easily shown Arya running off in a spat and having Ned come in a few seconds later and ask what happened and then go up after her. Also what's with Sansa's attitude? She doesn't have that yet. She's still in dreaming lala prince is going to marry me land.

Tyrion telling Snow about how the recruits are not trained instead of the Master smith and doing so with them still in the room was kind of an odd scene. Tyrion pissing off the wall was something he said as a jest and never actually did it in the book. Jon asking Tyrion to lend some words to Bran was not done which I was disappointed with.

And one of the biggest things. Benjen Stark was still there. I suppose it worked but damn was I slightly irritated with him not having a small talk with Snow earlier and being gone by this time. Like I said, it worked but I was thinking about it too much the entire scene.

I understand that they pushed scenes together, changed dialog to use less actors in scenes, etc. I understand all that however I still think there were key parts in the books that really needed to be in the show to demonstrate just a bit more character depth and development. The characters are quite rich by TV standards but with just a little better choice of added scenes I think they could be better.

And they better have Hodor in there. Another understated yet important character in my eyes.

[TheEvilKing]

Loved this episode. So many awesome moments. Tyrion pissing off the Wall! The Small Council. Syrio (Arya was fantastic in that scene, so joyful & awed but also a serious little badass). The added scenes were great. Loved Tyrion/Benjen/Yoren (the Imp was hilarious in that scene), Robert's dick measuring contest, Cersei teaching Joff to be evil, Jorah and the bloodrider.

Arya, Robert and Tyrion are stealing the show thus far.

This show is getting exponentially better with each ep. And the tourney is up next! The Hound, the Mountain, Beric Dondarrion, the Knight of Flowers. Littlefinger being a creepy pedo. And more drunken Robert antics. :cheers:

[Tempra]

Loved this episode. So many awesome moments. Tyrion pissing off the Wall! The Small Council. Syrio (Arya was fantastic in that scene, so joyful & awed but also a serious little badass). The added scenes were great. Loved Tyrion/Benjen/Yoren (the Imp was hilarious in that scene), Robert's dick measuring contest, Cersei teaching Joff to be evil, Jorah and the bloodrider.

Arya, Robert and Tyrion are stealing the show thus far.

This show is getting exponentially better with each ep. And the tourney is up next! The Hound, the Mountain, Beric Dondarrion, the Knight of Flowers. Littlefinger being a creepy pedo. And more drunken Robert antics. :cheers:

Agreed. Best episode of the series so far. There were smooth transitions between scenes and the acting was superb. I wasn't thrilled by Syrio or LF, but those are minor quibbles.

[Nick Of Troy]

I'm finding Iain Glen's portrayal of Ser Jorah Morment absolutely fantastic thus far, especially the scene where he openly defies Viserys in favor of Dany. In fact, I'm really impressed with pretty much every character thus far.

Missing the direwolves in this episode, was there even a glimpse of one? I know they had "training issues" with the dogs, but even shots of Summer on Bran's bed, or Ghost walking beside Jon on the Wall would have been nice. Hell, even a mention or two of them so we don't forget they're there would be welcome!

The melodic take of the main theme in the end credits was quite good too.

[Pink Walder Frey]

I was kind of disappointed about the scenes in Castle Black. It's understandable to leave out a character like Donal Noye because of his few appearances and give his lines to someone else, and the choice of Tyrion seems a wise one, too, but I think the scenes were paced much too fast and there is some loss of depth to Jon becoming friend with Pyp and Grenn and also the general idea of them all being brothers. There also a complete loss of the trouble between Thorne and Jon, apart from this one scene - I would have liked him to ask Jon if he is now the weaponsmaster - maybe it'll come in a later episode, but anyway, for me there are too much lines provided by or to the wrong person - completly differing from the book - certainly they show the same development to the characters, but it just feels odd

I also missed Jon and Tyrion calling each other "friend" and Jon asking him to help Bran, like he helped him (understandble, as the relationship wasn't developed like in the book).

Skipping Catelyn's ship journey is understandble to me, it wouldn't serve the plot or the character development. But I'm also a bit disappointed about changing some timelines - Catelyn arriving after Ned, Tyrion will leaving before Benjen is missing. Maybe it is not really so important, but a bit annoying.

I really liked the scene with the small council (IIRC there were not enough chairs for the whole council, if everyone was present?) and the Littlefinger scenes were great, too - I liked him and Varys and even Pycelle. But for the Littlefinger scenes I thought them also a bit too fast paced - there were some parts of scenes and also some of the new scenes (the Jaimie/Ned was great done, but the scene with Robert/Barristan/Jaimie/Lancel (someone should buy him a new cap) didn't provide so much) that I would liked to have skipped and instead gave some other scenes a bit more time to develop more depth.

Another point that annyoed me was Ned giving Sansa a doll and short after that providing sword training to the younger Arya...

Well and Arya and Syrio were just awesome, even if Syrio differs a bit my imaginations.

[Lord Varys]

This show really makes me love Joffrey. Truly. That boy is a true revolutionary! A standing army? That's actually a great idea. It would be a project for a generation or so, but the royal house should really think about that to make themselves less dependent on their lords.

As to Cersei, she is exactly like the Cersei in the books, if you ask me. The scene with Jaime - which is by the way no new scene, but a scene that happens in the books as well, although we learn about it only through Jaime's memories - introduces us to Cersei's fickleness when stuff is not working out the way she imagined it. She wanted Jaime to throw Bran out of the tower, that's very clear in the series when she says two times 'He saw us'. Only afterwards, when things don't work out the way should have, she blames Jaime for it.

And her advice to Joffrey - who actually had the guts to admit that he was beaten by Arya - she tells that truth and reality can be changed by royal decrees. That's exactly the way Cersei Lannister thinks, that reality is not what it is, but what it should be, and it's a trait she inherited from Tywin who embodies that kind of weird thinking. But whereas Tywin is still able to differentiate between appearance and reality, Cersei cannot. No one taught her how to do that. They all said she will always get what she wants because she wants it.

As to the episode itself:

I liked most of it, until I realized they won't give us Drogo and Dany out there among the Khalasar. I really expected them to give us that, after Emilia actually tells us that all important things in the life of the Dothraki have to happen outside, under the sky. Instead they give us Rakharo and Irri as human beings, which, in my opinion, is completely pointless. They are nothing more that better extras, through the all of the books, and they should be treated as such.

The time line is mixed up as well, which somewhat makes Varys and Littlefinger a lot more powerful than they should be to this point. If they are able to hide Cat and Ser Rodrik from the Lannisters, Renly, and Robert himself. With them being in the city, Varys going to Littlefinger instead of directly to Ned, really has to mean he and Littlefinger are involved in the Jon Arryn affair.

The actors of both these guys convinced me, Varys can play the effeminate eunuch well, now we have to wait and see, if he can play his other sides as well. Littlefinger is funny, and, to an extent dangerous, as you can really see that his assurances to Catelyn were not really convincing. But they failed to explain to the audience that Ned's elder brother really was the guy who should have married Cat. The way people see them, they might have thought their marriage was a marriage for love... The whole Brandon business should be cleared up in the next episode. Pycelle is as boring, clumsy, and old as he described again and again in the books. Very good.

I liked the hug between Renly and Ned as well. Ned has to know the child Renly, and Ned would be some kind of distant uncle he sees once or twice in a decade, or so. Unfortunately Ned forgot to inquire about Stannis. It would have been a great opportunity to establish that Robert has in fact two brothers.

The Selmy-Robert-Jaime scene had great dialogue, but I really did not like the setting. It would have been much better with Robert being accompanied by Jaime and Barristan to a brothel (that really sounds like something Robert would do to Jaime), and they sharing war stories on their way back, maybe with Robert and Selmy in a litter, and Jaime walking beside it.

I'm actually particularly interested about the Tarly boy story. That's intriguing, and considering the story about the Tyroshi (Barristan's first kill might have been during the War of the Ninepenny Kings), and Simon Toyne and the Kingswood Brotherhood, I gather the story about Robert's first kill comes directly from GRRM, so we really should learn someday who this particular Tarly boy was. A younger brother of Randyll who squired for some Stormlord, most likely, as he else would not have fought at the Battle of Summerhall. I really hope Stannis finds some excuse to talk about that battle in the future, as it's unlikely that he, too, had his first kill back then.

And the 'Burn them all' line was as unexpected as it was brilliant. They really know how to foreshadow things they will dig into later on. And Robert's look really showed he had no idea about the whole thing.

Arya and Syrio were really fun to see, they are really getting this right, although I, too, missed Ned's line about Arya resembling Lyanna.

[Cereal Forel]

I had a huge grin on my face this entire episode. I LOVE seeing these new scenes where we get to see characters interact that we were never privy to in the books. The Robert, Barristan and Kingslayer scene was fucking epic! NCW's portayal of Jaime is so spot on. Love Syrio and Arya as well, I even like the new, personable Yoren. I literally could not be more pleased by this series.

The only thing I'm missing is Ghost. He should always be at Jon's side, at least at this point in the story.

[Greywolf2375]

Been thinking back over the episode. Even during the watching of it, my first thought with Nan's setting and voice was "she'd scare the shit out of me on a sunny summer day talking about puppies and rainbows"; hearing her tell "scary" stories...I'da never slept.

As has been said through the other two episodes - the characters need to be introduced a littlre more cleanly. Having Robert throw in a "Barristan, what was your..." isn't going to throw off pacing, but will identify who he is talking to. Theon, same thing. Then, as they did with Jaime, they can throw in the nicknames - Littlefinger, Kingslayer, etc.

With that, I'm actually kind of OK without having the direwolves present as much. There are all ready so many characters moving through that adding them in - especially growing - probably would add to the confusion. They are central in many of the scenes later so I am just hoping that we are not seeing them until they are full grown. By the time they would be adults (or close enough) we will be able to see Ghost, Summer, etc.

They dealing with Jorah well, I like the transition to listening to Dany over Viserys and the look he gives the bloodrider (not sure which it was). I can't remember from the books - did he excuse himself to leave the khalasar like that to send notice that Dany was pregnant? Just seemed like it would be more noticeable - with his king and his khaleesi here, can he just "leave"?

[Kaitscralt]

I do love the casting of Littlefinger, Varys and Renly. Especially the necessary creepiness of the first two.

Not naming Selmy is another little thing that irks me. Add him to the growing list of important secondary characters who a non-reader will be left scratching their head at.

Syrio and Arya were just amazing, and the final shot of Eddard going from looking humored with the training to hearing the clash of swords and war in sad reminiscence (also in foreshadowing for his family) was totally poetic, and much stronger than I'd given the writers credit for thus far.

The non-reader I watched it with has already correctly guessed that Eddard dies and that Joffrey is Jaime's son. I think the show is spelling out these things too early with all their sad shots of Eddard and the talking about gold Lannister hair and dark Baratheon hair. But it's not taking away from the story at all so :thumbsup:.

The tournament should certainly be interesting.

[Pink Walder Frey]

I can't remember from the books - did he excuse himself to leave the khalasar like that to send notice that Dany was pregnant? Just seemed like it would be more noticeable - with his king and his khaleesi here, can he just "leave"?

It wasn't in the books, we only hear about it from Varys in the Small Council. The only time when Jorah excuses to exchange some information/letters is in Vaes Dothrak, when he leaves Dany to look for letters from Illyrio and later saves her from the wine merchanet.

But I liked it made obvious, that there's something going on with Jorah and also Qohor is on their way from Pentos to Vaes Dothrak, so it's a good choice.

[NW Deserter]

Love when that he said "He might be their only ally in Kings Landing!" re: Littlefinger. <_<

[Sharpes]

The non-reader I watched it with has already correctly guessed that Eddard dies and that Joffrey is Jaime's son. I think the show is spelling out these things too early with all their sad shots of Eddard and the talking about gold Lannister hair and dark Baratheon hair. But it's not taking away from the story at all so :thumbsup:.

As I've yet to read the books I guessed that would be the case with Ned and that something was suspect about Joffrey though I kinda knew these spoilers beforehand. :P Everything else I'm not in the know so I'm just taking it all in as the show progresses.

Overall, I'm enjoying the show and the cast but some of the pronunciations are hard to hear so I miss who is who. =(

[Ferrum Aeternum]

This was my favorite episode yet. Highlights:

Arya/Syrio - Nailed the essence of this very important scene. A fun and lively way to end the show, although I also enjoyed Ned's grim realization at the end. It made a lot of sense given what the characters had already experienced to that point. Also, not to be too much of a fanboy, but I totally fist-pumped at "just so."

The Wall scenes - yes, all of them. I've got a feeling the Night's Watch storyline is going to be a strong point for the series in general. Alliser Thorne, Mormont, Maester Aemon, Benjen, Jon's fellow recruits - all pitch perfect. I was also impressed by the choreography of the training scene. Jon looks like a badass amongst untrained boys, as he should (to heighten the impact of his being named a steward rather than a ranger). Tyrion's scenes were fantastic - especially the added scene with Yoren. No Ghost was the only disappointment. I would at least have liked seeing him accompany Jon to the top of the Wall. Oh well - hopefully next week will make up for that.

Old Nan - damn that scene was fun, and faithful to the book. Margaret John (RIP :( ) indeed out-Old Nan'd Old Nan. Bran was appropriately bummed and brooding, although I wouldn't have midned a bit more dialogue between he and Robb, perhaps voicing Bran's despair that he would never fulfill his dream of becoming a knight.

Dany/Viserys/Jorah - for once, all these scenes felt right and were well-executed. It helped that there was finally some real conflict and some interesting things going on. Jorah's scene with Rakharo was excellent as was the decision to show Jorah hastily departing for Qohor - great way to clue the audience in on his early motivations. I'll echo some others in expressing my satisfaction with Iain Glen's performance so far as Jorah. He's a guy you really want to like, despite whatever's gone on in his past or what he may be up to now.

Ned & Arya - Again, perfectly played by both actors. Among a stellar cast overall, Maisie Williams is exceptional.

Some minor disappointments, but nothing to dispel my positive reaction to the show. The one thing that annoyed me the most was (once again) failing to introduce a fairly significant minor character by name - i.e. Barristan Selmy. I kwow the audience has a lot to keep up with, but come on, mentioning the guy's name in passing isn't going to confuse anyone, and will at least provide a frame of reference for when he becomes more important down the road.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Love when that he said "He might be their only ally in Kings Landing!" re: Littlefinger. <_<

I was actualy disappointed in this week's review: My husband loves Tyrion as much as this guy, and my husband called Littlefinger a liar for impicating him; and he got the white wakers and wildlings confused :stunned: Sorry, but I am pretty sure it has been made clear they are different.

[Tara1189]

Surprised people are calling this episode slow - it was the quickest by far for me, and also my favorite.

The Arya/Syrio scene is the best of the series to date. Odd place to end the episode (going in, I assumed the episode would end with "Khaleesi, you are with child" - "I know"). Especially chilling is when you see Ned's face and realise he isn't reliving the war - he's realising that the next war is going to be fought by his children. You can see the exact moment he realises he's watching Lyanna 2.0 forming before his eyes. Awesome, awesome, awesome. The score for this scene (and the series in general) is stellar. The soundtrack really enhances the mood and nature of this world and its diverse cultures without ever distracting from a scene (Doctor Who, please take note).

Maisie Williams is taking no prisoners on this show. She's emerged as the best out of an already phenominal cast, last week holding her own against Addy, Bean and Headey. She steals every scene she's in just by stepping in front of the camera.

The Eastern continent scenes are gradually becoming among my favorites. I love how they're subtly showing Dany's integration into Dothraki culture rather than telling (i.e. she's wearing Dothraki garb, she dismounts easily where in the previous episode she needed assistance). I lolled at Jorah's transparently dodgy reaction to Dany's pregnancy: "I need to... uh... ride to... um, Quohor? Yes, Quohor... to do something... important" followed by the shiftiest exit ever. I'm becoming a huge fan of Jorah, and I've realised it's because Iain Glenn played the awesome Father Octavian on Doctor Who last year. He comes across as less of a middle aged creeper than in the books.

Renly didn't impress me much (wish we could have seen him last week when he kills himself laughing at Arya's disarming Joffrey.) He just doesn't quite seem to have to charisma I imagine Renly possessing. Or maybe it's because Henry Cavill will always be my Renly.

Aiden Gillen was perfect as Littlefinger, straddling that fine line between the almost childish desire to impress Cat and maintaining that careless, quick-witted persona he projects to the world. I wish we could have heard his "Oh well done" line when Ned recognises Cat. However, I laughed out loud at his "oh shit" face when two topless girls wandered in.

I didn't even notice the Direwolves weren't in this episode *guilty*

[Starkess]

She's perfect, it's a sad shame the actress died soon after shooting the season.

I didn't know that. Sad. :(

I was concerned and a little upset when it was announced that the kingsguard wouldn't be wearing white armor. I think my concerns might have been a little justified with the confusion as to whether, or not, Barristan was the one speaking with Robert. I really don't understand the decision to change the armor. I always thought the KG should stand out and be the focus of attention. I think they were, at least, wearing white cloaks in this episode.

IIRC, they thought about doing white armor but it looked too cheesy, which I can totally understand. Stuff that sounds cool in writing doesn't always translate well.

What I do wish they would do is explain the Kingsguard at all!

Shocked that no one mentioned this, but the scene with Jaime/Ned is going to mess up the redemption thread of Jaime's later on down the line.

Part of tha arc was finally seeing Jaime's viewpoint, as well as experiencing the slow crumbling of his defences. He hadn't told anyone the details of the Aery event, I am pretty sure that the book says that he figured no one would believe him, least of all that 'judgmental, critical, cold Ned Stark' (paraphrasing). To introduce this so early sounds like Jaime is whining "why don't you wuv me?" The books make it clear that he realized that Ned would never understand him nor appreciate it. So I agree with an earlier poster that said Jaime sorta seems like an ass just because he's an ass. :-\

Eh, after having read the series twice, I still think that about him.

Question: why did Dany get off her horse and wander into...uh...somewhere? I know what it sets up - the confrontation with Viserys - but it feels like she got off her horse and wanders off for no real reason. It was a bizarrely blocked set.

I definitely thought that seemed very pointless. Without her inner monologue, we need just a little bit more of a clue why she would just stop (I sorta got the sense it was for the advantage of the slaves, but barely) and then start again without doing anything.

Nope. The beard is something he gets later. It's a plot point -- Jorah finally recognizes him through the beard. I'd imagine that Barristan Selmy is the very model of what a gently-born knight of his age should look like, with a neat appearance. Probably his hair should be somewhat longer, but the show has tended to shorten people's hair anyways.

Ah, I'd forgotten about that. Makes sense. :)

[Xray the Enforcer]

I really enjoyed the episode -- I didn't think it was that difficult to pick out Barristan Selmy. Once I saw the white cloak (which happened early in that scene), I knew. I frickin' LOVED the Old Nan scene.

[CryFenril]

Had to re-watch Syrio and Ayra. Big cheesin' grin the whole time. The added touch of Ned's foreboding was awesome.

[Kaitscralt]

I really enjoyed the episode -- I didn't think it was that difficult to pick out Barristan Selmy.

I don't think it was difficult for any reader to pick out Barristan Selmy, but they could have still given him a name for non-reader audience sake, or mentioned that he leads the KG.