Wert's Star Trek: The Next Generation rewatch (now in added HD!)

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Avery Brooks had a unique way of enunciating sentences that always weirded me out a little.

[DaveSumm]

Yea, he insists on pronouncing every syllable fully so when he's angry HE. KIND. OF. SOUNDS. LIKE. THIS.

[Shryke]

Avery Brooks is just a strange guy all around.

But you eventually get into his rhythm on DS9 and it works. Until he goes really out there and it jars you out of your trance again, of course.

[williamjm]

I must admit that O'Brien is my favourite Star Trek engineer to date, certainly the closest in spirit to Scotty. LaFore would dialate the phase inducers to produce a harmonic torsion effect and you'd be going, "What the hell?" O'Brien would jury-rig some powe couplings together with wire and spit and warn it would either work or explode.

If I had something that wasn't working and I needed someone to fix it, I'd definitely pick O'Brien rather than any of the other Trek Engineers.

Avery Brooks had a unique way of enunciating sentences that always weirded me out a little.

To be fair, there's a long tradition of the lead actors in Star Trek series having eccentric ways of speaking.

[Rhom]

Avery Brooks is just a strange guy all around.

Hey! Don't talk bad about A Man Called Hawk. :lol:

If I had something that wasn't working and I needed someone to fix it, I'd definitely pick O'Brien rather than any of the other Trek Engineers.

You bite your tongue! Montgomery Scott is the only possible answer to that question!

[Werthead]

Sisko is the only one of the captains that convinced me a real military leader. To be fair, Kirk only go to show that side a couple of times (and in one of them, TWoK, he's deliberately off his game), but Picard had plenty of chances and usually ended up appearing to be a bit indecisive, calling coffee lounge conferences in the middle of tense stand-offs, usually with aliens prepared to give him shitloads of time to go off and have said conferences. He was really good in Yesterday's Enterprise though, when shit got real.

Sisko, on the other hand, just kicked the bollocks out of everything in sight (as did Worf and/or Dax and/or Kira when they were in command). He also helped design the Defiant, IIRC, which probably explans why it hasn't got a conference room ;)

Starfleet Engineer: "But if we're not going to have a conference room, what can we put in its place?!"

Sisko: "How about an extra quantum torpedo launcher and another one of those rotary phaser minigun things?"

[Jaxom 1974]

Eh. Picard was ever the diplomat, not the warrior. He was played like that. If they wanted him more militaristic, as he showed in Yesterday's Enterprise, Stewart would have kicked the shit out of that too.

Sisko. No disagreement there. He was more of a military figure and designing ships was one of his things, so the Defiant made sense there.

Janeway was a scientist and I think that's how Mulgrew approached a lot of what she was portraying.

For what all that's worth.

[Lightning Lord]

Eh. Picard was ever the diplomat, not the warrior. He was played like that. If they wanted him more militaristic, as he showed in Yesterday's Enterprise, Stewart would have kicked the shit out of that too.

Sisko. No disagreement there. He was more of a military figure and designing ships was one of his things, so the Defiant made sense there.

Yah - Picard was definitely not a warrior in his TNG days. I think in his early days, he had a bit more of a badass side, but as he always claimed, the Enterprise was not a military vessel, was not a warship.

Sisko...one does not eff with the Sisko. Q learned that the hard way. Brooks's face at 0:42...so excellent.

[sToNED_CAT]

Cardassians were nothing like the Romulans and, to quote Garak's mentor Enabran Tain, the Tal Shiar are "sloppy". There's probably no alien civilization on Trek that's been given the depth of characterization or history as the ol' Spoonheads. They weren't really villains in the end either.

Well they had pretty similar characteristics. I've read somewhere, that creators originally wanted to have Romulans as antagonists, but felt they were overused so they created Cardassians. Another problem was their military weakness. I think they were the least intimidating main antagonist race in Star Trek after Ferengi. I wonder how is it possible they were not overrun by Klingon-Federation alliance in first war. Everytime they fight against enemy and not outnumber him 5-1, they have their asses kicked, so it's not very plausible that DS9 saw them as threat before alliance with Dominion.

And to the Sisko as a great military leader, well he greatly contributed the the end of whole Federation-Klingon alliance to save his enemies Cardassians. Now I admit I saw those episodes long time ago, so I'm not sure if he followed orders or acted on his own iniciative, but boy that was an accomplishment.

Plus I didn't like that he was such hypocrite by bitching about Section 31 and using the same methods when it suited him.

Some other minor problems with DS9

- Maquis - I'm supposed to believe those people developed such a strong bond with their colonies in such short time (no way they were living there for more than 50 years), that they refused to resettle to other planets and started to fight brutal and futile war against Cardassians all while constantly bitching about Fed not helping them? Yeah, sure.

- Bajorans, especially those religious leaders who scheme to expel Federation from Bajor space - dont they realize that the minute Federation is out Cardassians are in? So I was like how can anyone be so stupid?

[RumHam]

Well they had pretty similar characteristics. I've read somewhere, that creators originally wanted to have Romulans as antagonists, but felt they were overused so they created Cardassians. Another problem was their military weakness. I think they were the least intimidating main antagonist race in Star Trek after Ferengi. I wonder how is it possible they were not overrun by Klingon-Federation alliance in first war. Everytime they fight against enemy and not outnumber him 5-1, they have their asses kicked, so it's not very plausible that DS9 saw them as threat before alliance with Dominion.

In defense of the Cardassians, That's just the way it is on Star Trek. Any species' military strength, level of technological advancement, hell pretty much any other attribute always bends to the needs of the plot. The Borg are probably the most annoying example of this. "We are a hive mind with no individuals. Until someone decides we should have a queen."

Also Cisco rules. I'm not a fan of (in this case licensed) fan-fiction, but I did consider reading those DS9 novels just in the hope of seeing he and Jake reunited in some way.

[felice]

- Maquis - I'm supposed to believe those people developed such a strong bond with their colonies in such short time (no way they were living there for more than 50 years), that they refused to resettle to other planets and started to fight brutal and futile war against Cardassians all while constantly bitching about Fed not helping them? Yeah, sure.

Oh, absolutely. Nobody would ever fight over settlements in disputed territory that are only decades old at most.

[Shryke]

Well they had pretty similar characteristics. I've read somewhere, that creators originally wanted to have Romulans as antagonists, but felt they were overused so they created Cardassians. Another problem was their military weakness. I think they were the least intimidating main antagonist race in Star Trek after Ferengi. I wonder how is it possible they were not overrun by Klingon-Federation alliance in first war. Everytime they fight against enemy and not outnumber him 5-1, they have their asses kicked, so it's not very plausible that DS9 saw them as threat before alliance with Dominion.

They didn't see them as much of a threat to the Federation as a whole. The Cardassians were only a threat in that they were probably closer then reinforcements. The Federation was never actually scared of the Cardassians.

They are pretty consistent about that throughout all the series.

[sToNED_CAT]

Oh, absolutely. Nobody would ever fight over settlements in disputed territory that are only decades old at most.

Well you realize that the Jews were living there for thousands of years although in smaller numbers? Or the whole religious and ancenstral homeland aspect of it? On the other hand Maquis were colonists with absolutely zero emotional connection to those planets when they arrived.

[felice]

On the other hand Maquis were colonists with absolutely zero emotional connection to those planets when they arrived.

I don't imagine it would be that hard to develop an emotional connection to a colony you've spent years building up from nothing.

[Werthead]

I wonder how is it possible they were not overrun by Klingon-Federation alliance in first war. Everytime they fight against enemy and not outnumber him 5-1, they have their asses kicked, so it's not very plausible that DS9 saw them as threat before alliance with Dominion.

The first Federation/Cardassian War was relatively short and, IIRC, was about territorial disputes. The Cardassians deployed their entire military and the Federation held them off with only a small amount of theirs until a diplomatic solution was reached. The Klingons weren't involved at all. Just because you're allied to someone doesn't mean they have to jump into every single fight (i.e. the USA not militarily supporting Britain during the Falklands War despite being long-standing military allies).

Throughout the series, the threat isn't from the Cardassians to the Federation, it's from the Cardassians to Bajor.

And to the Sisko as a great military leader, well he greatly contributed the the end of whole Federation-Klingon alliance to save his enemies Cardassians. Now I admit I saw those episodes long time ago, so I'm not sure if he followed orders or acted on his own iniciative, but boy that was an accomplishment.

The Klingons were using the excuse of the Dominion so they could conquer the Cardassians, Gowron even admits this later one when it's proven that there aren't any shapeshifters in the Cardassian government. The Federation isn't going to tolerate that. Continuing the anlogue from earlier on, the USA probably wouldn't continue its alliance with Britain if Britain invaded Ireland on a casus belli that was later admitted to be fake.

Also, Sisko renegotiated the alliance eighteen months later and was crucial in its re-implmentation, not to mention exposing the Dominion agents who caused the war in the first place. That was a much greater accomplishment.

Plus I didn't like that he was such hypocrite by bitching about Section 31 and using the same methods when it suited him.

That was an interesting parallel they could have done more with. However, Sisko voiced his disapproval of Section 31 but it was Bashir who really hated them (and note it was Bashir who also vociferiously opposed Sisko's actions in bringing the Romulans into the war).

- Maquis - I'm supposed to believe those people developed such a strong bond with their colonies in such short time (no way they were living there for more than 50 years), that they refused to resettle to other planets and started to fight brutal and futile war against Cardassians all while constantly bitching about Fed not helping them? Yeah, sure.

If your grandparents settle a planet and you and your parents (and maybe your young kids) have all grown up there and worked bloody hard to make it work, then yes, that's very believable.

- Bajorans, especially those religious leaders who scheme to expel Federation from Bajor space - dont they realize that the minute Federation is out Cardassians are in? So I was like how can anyone be so stupid?

This is the tension in the series. The Bajoran leaders who want the Federation out are simply assuming that the Cardassians won't return (the economic impact of the wormhole seems dubious, especially after the discovery of the Dominion) or they'll beat them again if they do. What's much more important is that having been occupied by the Cardassians for 40+ years, there are Bajorans who don't want to swap the Cardassian yoke for the Federation's one, and that's something that is constantly explored in the series. There is a strong desire for full independence from all outsiders, which is a very understandable and commonplace feeling.

It is also precedented. In 1938 the Polish government rejected a request from the British and French to let the Russians cross their territory to invade Germany, quite understandably fearing that the Russians would never leave. They made that choice even when it appeared that a German attack was inevitable. They chose to hang on to their full independence for as long as possible, even if its demise to one faction or another was inevitable.

[sToNED_CAT]

1. The Cardassians deployed their entire military and the Federation held them off with only a small amount of theirs until a diplomatic solution was reached.

2. The Klingons were using the excuse of the Dominion so they could conquer the Cardassians, Gowron even admits this later one when it's proven that there aren't any shapeshifters in the Cardassian government. The Federation isn't going to tolerate that. Continuing the anlogue from earlier on, the USA probably wouldn't continue its alliance with Britain if Britain invaded Ireland on a casus belli that was later admitted to be fake.

3. This is the tension in the series. The Bajoran leaders who want the Federation out are simply assuming that the Cardassians won't return (the economic impact of the wormhole seems dubious, especially after the discovery of the Dominion) or they'll beat them again if they do. What's much more important is that having been occupied by the Cardassians for 40+ years, there are Bajorans who don't want to swap the Cardassian yoke for the Federation's one, and that's something that is constantly explored in the series. There is a strong desire for full independence from all outsiders, which is a very understandable and commonplace feeling.

It is also precedented. In 1938 the Polish government rejected a request from the British and French to let the Russians cross their territory to invade Germany, quite understandably fearing that the Russians would never leave. They made that choice even when it appeared that a German attack was inevitable. They chose to hang on to their full independence for as long as possible, even if its demise to one faction or another was inevitable.

1. Well in such case they were pretty stupid with their constant brinkmanship against DS9. Although maybe not... I can easily imagine Federation offering them olive branch after they blowing DS9 to pieces in pilot.

2. That analogy with Ireland is wrong. Ireland wasn't in war VS US, they were not constantly involved in bodrer incidents and there was no powerful influential Cardassian minority in UFP. :) As for UFP not tolerating Klingon expansionism, well what did they expect when they allied with them? That such warlike race that commonly solves its disputes by combat would be satisfied with life without the war? In fact I'm surprised that alliance lasted that long. And I don't think even the renewed one will have particulary long duration without common enemy. Those 2 ideologies are fundamentally different.

Anyway it's pretty funny how whitewashed are Klingons in ST. They are portrayed basically just like brave, honorable warriors, but the fate of the races that must live under their yoke is not mentioned at all. At least I suppose those races exist, I don't think such huge empire consist solely of Klingons. And I highly doubt those subjugated races enjoy rights and freedoms even remotely comparable to UFP.

3. Well Polish didn't want the Russians because they were quite harshly ruled by them just 20 years before WWII, while Bajor had no prior xperience with Federation. I understand that some isolationist Bajorans are not satisfied with Federation influence, but they can't get better deal in all 4 quadrants than tolerant UFP (the independence being totally impossible). So they acting like this is not just unreasonable, it's totally crazy.

[beniowa]

3. Well Polish didn't want the Russians because they were quite harshly ruled by them just 20 years before WWII, while Bajor had no prior xperience with Federation. I understand that some isolationist Bajorans are not satisfied with Federation influence, but they can't get better deal in all 4 quadrants than tolerant UFP (the independence being totally impossible). So they acting like this is not just unreasonable, it's totally crazy.

Well, that's not quite true. The Bajorans do have plenty of experience with the Federation doing nothing about the occupation for 40+ years. There's only so much "we'll raise the issue diplomatically" that people can take until they tell the UFP to piss off as well. Then they manage to drive the Cardassians off by themselves, and well, one can't blame them for not wanting to ally with anyone.

[Werthead]

1. Well in such case they were pretty stupid with their constant brinkmanship against DS9. Although maybe not... I can easily imagine Federation offering them olive branch after they blowing DS9 to pieces in pilot.

DS9 wasn't a Federation station though. It was a Bajoran one run by the Federation at the Bajorans' request. If the Cardassians took out Bajor, they could reclaim DS9 without a shot being fired (and after DS9 was moved out of orbit around Bajor, it wasn't in a position to do anything about it).

As for UFP not tolerating Klingon expansionism, well what did they expect when they allied with them? That such warlike race that commonly solves its disputes by combat would be satisfied with life without the war? In fact I'm surprised that alliance lasted that long. And I don't think even the renewed one will have particulary long duration without common enemy. Those 2 ideologies are fundamentally different.

The Klingon-Federation alliance endured 80-odd years, during which time the Klingons apparently did not wage a war of aggression against another species, so that does not seem to have been a problem (the Klingons were economically devastated by the destruction of Praxis and took a long time and a lot of Federation help to recover). As for the renewed one, at the end of DS9 the Klingons are a spent force. Millions upon millions of their troops are dead, thousands of their ships have been destroyed and (thanks to Gowron's stupidity and the extra-long period they spent fighting the Cardassians before the Dominion intervened) they suffered far worse damage than either the Federation (which was much larger) or the Romulans (who entered the war relatively late in the day and proceeded cautiously). The alliance will probably still endure for decades because without it the Klingons are extremely vulnerable.

Anyway it's pretty funny how whitewashed are Klingons in ST. They are portrayed basically just like brave, honorable warriors, but the fate of the races that must live under their yoke is not mentioned at all. At least I suppose those races exist, I don't think such huge empire consist solely of Klingons. And I highly doubt those subjugated races enjoy rights and freedoms even remotely comparable to UFP.

True, but that's realpolitik for you, plus the Federation's refusal to intervene in the internal affairs of other powers.

I understand that some isolationist Bajorans are not satisfied with Federation influence, but they can't get better deal in all 4 quadrants than tolerant UFP (the independence being totally impossible). So they acting like this is not just unreasonable, it's totally crazy.

As said above, the Federation did almost nothing to help the Bajorans during the forty years of the occupation, and are viewed with great suspicion. Garak and Quark's conversation about the Federation in Season 4 sums up the idea that yes, having the Federation on your side is good and they are the best choice out of a bad bunch of local powers, but they are also heavily flawed and kind of sanctimonious and condescending.

[Maltaran]

As said above, the Federation did almost nothing to help the Bajorans during the forty years of the occupation, and are viewed with great suspicion. Garak and Quark's conversation about the Federation in Season 4 sums up the idea that yes, having the Federation on your side is good and they are the best choice out of a bad bunch of local powers, but they are also heavily flawed and kind of sanctimonious and condescending.

Is that the one where they compare the Federation to root beer?

[Werthead]

Is that the one where they compare the Federation to root beer?

Yup.