A Memory of Light [FULL SPOILER DISCUSSION] Part 2

[peterbound]

you will never convince me it was a good direction to go. It's very juvenile.

That sentence pretty much sums up my entire view of WoT.

[Shryke]

Man, you people realise this shit wasn't weird not long ago right?

Like, this is a real ad:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2045/2073509609_c53a92ad66.jpg

Spanking as corporal punishment was a thing.

[Darth Richard]

You people all need a good spanking!

Seriously though, i wouldn't call it an extreme of ridiculous fetish. There is sooooooooo soooo soooo SOOOOOO much worse.

[Jon Wolfwalker]

You all are so hung up on it, it's starting to make me wonder about you.

[Miriel]

I stopped reading the series long ago--somewhere around Elayne's epic bath it all just died for me and I gave up.

But, I did buy this book and skimmed through. It was hard to follow b/c I had missed so much but I had to see how it ended. Overall, pretty good stuff.

I did read in the first thread that The Lord of the Rings is mentioned in TWoT? How'd I miss that? (This popped up in the discussion of all the goodies in the Panarch's palace from earlier ages like the M-B hood ornament, as well as legends of Merk and Mosc etc). Can someone refresh my memory of the TLofR reference please?

Also, re: the whole Bao the Wyld? Did we ever see what the prophecies about him were exactly? Or was it just that there were some prophecies but they were never specified?

[peterbound]

I stopped reading the series long ago--somewhere around Elayne's epic bath it all just died for me and I gave up.

But, I did buy this book and skimmed through. It was hard to follow b/c I had missed so much but I had to see how it ended. Overall, pretty good stuff.

I did read in the first thread that The Lord of the Rings is mentioned in TWoT? How'd I miss that? (This popped up in the discussion of all the goodies in the Panarch's palace from earlier ages like the M-B hood ornament, as well as legends of Merk and Mosc etc). Can someone refresh my memory of the TLofR reference please?

Also, re: the whole Bao the Wyld? Did we ever see what the prophecies about him were exactly? Or was it just that there were some prophecies but they were never specified?

They talk about 'Bili under the hill' or some such bullshit. I think you can consider the whole of the EoTW a reference/ripoff of LotR.

One of the fuckers runs around as 'Underhill' for a while as well. Can't remember who, but it's a nod to the Master.

[Gertrude]

Man, you people realise this shit wasn't weird not long ago right?

Doesn't mean that it was right then, either. I'm not sure what Jordan's actual aim was in regard to the sexes. Was it supposed to be equal, or a matriarchy based on fear of Aes Sedai. Either way, a husband spanking a wife is ridiculous. That ad worked at the time because we've evolved as a patriarchy and the man is King of his Castle. I don't think the same dynamic works in the Perrin/Faile situation. It's jarringly out of place both in Jordan's world and to our modern sensibilities.

[alguien]

But not a single character was spanked in all three of his books. Doesn't that count for something?

I love this post times one billion. :)

ETA: even if its not quite accurate

The Grave Is No Bar To My Call.

bwahahaha!

[Shryke]

Doesn't mean that it was right then, either. I'm not sure what Jordan's actual aim was in regard to the sexes. Was it supposed to be equal, or a matriarchy based on fear of Aes Sedai. Either way, a husband spanking a wife is ridiculous. That ad worked at the time because we've evolved as a patriarchy and the man is King of his Castle. I don't think the same dynamic works in the Perrin/Faile situation. It's jarringly out of place both in Jordan's world and to our modern sensibilities.

I can't figure out what you are trying to say here.

Spanking as corporal punishment was not uncommon only like 50 years ago. The societies in WOT are certainly not modern in most contexts and rife with various properties of older real-world institutions. I don't see how it's in any way jarringly out of place in the WOT world.

And there is a certain amount of matriarchy in some parts of WOT, but I'd say the larger structure is one of gender division. Plus, most of the spanking is Aes Sedai on Aes Sedai, where it's used as punishment. The way, say, many people were hit in school as punishment.

[Shryke]

They talk about 'Bili under the hill' or some such bullshit. I think you can consider the whole of the EoTW a reference/ripoff of LotR.

One of the fuckers runs around as 'Underhill' for a while as well. Can't remember who, but it's a nod to the Master.

The start of EOTW is certainly written to feel LOTRish.

And Bili under the Hill is another one of the tons of references to our world in the books. We are supposed to be the First Age after all.

[Frey Pie]

Jeez who cares about a few spanking scenes. I dont recall the Perrin/Faile scene, but the Semirhage scene makes great sense when you consider the purpose was to man handle her, and to embarass her, to break her own image of herself.

In a book with a loada of violence and death why would anyone get hung up on this? Its like when people ask if they think such and such a person is old enough to read ASOIAF because of the sexual scenes.....never mind the rape and violence everywhere

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Christ Peterbound can you just let it go? You don't like the series. We get it. But by your own admission you don't remember large parts of it, so your perception of certain events is skewed at best.

Regarding LOTR - aside from Bili Under the Hill, there's an inn in TGH called The Nine Rings. Rand stays in it and thinks to himself that "The Nine Rings" was one of his favorite stories.

And for the millionth time (not to you, in general), the first book intentionally evokes Tolkien, especially the Shire. But the books bear very little resemblance to LOTR as a whole.

[David Selig]

I can't figure out what you are trying to say here.

Spanking as corporal punishment was not uncommon only like 50 years ago. The societies in WOT are certainly not modern in most contexts and rife with various properties of older real-world institutions. I don't see how it's in any way jarringly out of place in the WOT world.

And there is a certain amount of matriarchy in some parts of WOT, but I'd say the larger structure is one of gender division. Plus, most of the spanking is Aes Sedai on Aes Sedai, where it's used as punishment. The way, say, many people were hit in school as punishment.

What's out of place is for example Faile, a heir to the throne of a large kingdom, getting spanked by Perrin the country bumpkin and just taking it in stride. Or Siuan, who used to be the most powerful woman in the world, getting spanked by Gareth and everyone, including her, considering it perfectly normal.

And it only happens to women in this series (except some reminiscences what happened to one of the Superboys as a kid).

[peterbound]

Christ Peterbound can you just let it go? You don't like the series. We get it. But by your own admission you don't remember large parts of it, so your perception of certain events is skewed at best.

Regarding LOTR - aside from Bili Under the Hill, there's an inn in TGH called The Nine Rings. Rand stays in it and thinks to himself that "The Nine Rings" was one of his favorite stories.

And for the millionth time (not to you, in general), the first book intentionally evokes Tolkien, especially the Shire. But the books bear very little resemblance to LOTR as a whole.

Letting it go, prolly not.

And you're wrong, I did like the series. Fuck, I loved it as a teenager. I came from a very small town, and I would always imagine 'getting out' like rand and co did. I read the books up LoC multiple times. How the fuck is it skewed. You just said the same thing I did, after, i'm sure a comprehensive interwebs search on your part.

[Jon Wolfwalker]

Why so serious?

[Miriel]

Peterbound, Shryke, Wrathoftinykittens~

Thanks for the Lord of the Rings refresher. I knew it was supposed to be our world, and pretty clearly remember the goodies from the Panarch's palace and references to our world from the days when I loved these books, I just either forgot or never picked up on any Tolkien nods.

Anyway, thanks :)

I'm still curious about Bao the Wyld and his prophecies.

*back to the spanking discussion now*

[Gertrude]

I can't figure out what you are trying to say here.

Spanking as corporal punishment was not uncommon only like 50 years ago. The societies in WOT are certainly not modern in most contexts and rife with various properties of older real-world institutions. I don't see how it's in any way jarringly out of place in the WOT world.

And there is a certain amount of matriarchy in some parts of WOT, but I'd say the larger structure is one of gender division. Plus, most of the spanking is Aes Sedai on Aes Sedai, where it's used as punishment. The way, say, many people were hit in school as punishment.

Obviously the WoT world is not a modern world. Spanking a grown woman was acceptable because - hello - patriarchy. Men could hit their wives with no social repercussions because women were supposed to be submissive to their husband. They deserved that spanking because they didn't have a hot meal on the table, don'tcha know. Men (in general) are stronger and get to make the rules.

Look, I don't want to get into all this in a modern context, but this is not the world Jordan is trying to create. He wants us to see women as more empowered. There are Queens and powerful Aes Sedai. Even look at the Women's Circle in Emond's Field. At worst, women are seen as different but equal. Spanking does not work in that context and even country bumpkin Perrin should realize that. How does a community evolve in Randland that allows men to hit women when women are in control of the ultimate power and any woman could potentially possess it? It also doesn't square with Perrin's core of holding back. He's held back his strength all his life for fear of hurting someone, but throwing Faile over his knee he does without a second thought. That scene was gratuitous and has no internal logic behind it.

I get what you are saying, I really do, but this is a major problem with Jordan. Not the spanking specifically, but he rarely goes beyond superficial window dressing when he wants to make a point. "How would a society look where women are stronger instead of men? Hmm, I know, I'll make Queens and mysterious Aes Sedai. A few countries where women have the upperhand and perhaps an odd quirk in custom here and there. Done." He doesn't really think the rest of it through. That's why I find that example jarring.

The Aes Sedai on Aes Sedai punishment is what it is. He chose to put it in, and whatever. The spanking of Semi was an extension of this, but it was executed horribly and not believably. Do I believe that she could be broken by refusing to be intimidated by her, of course. Do I think one spanking could reduce her to scraping food from the floor to eat? Of course not.

(this convo is kind of like 'was Matt raped'. Either you get it or you don't and it's always exhausting to argue)

[Darth Richard]

Wasn't the spanking thing based on old ass nunnery practices?

[Frey Pie]

Is there not many more examples of women dominating men in the series? As in not physically but it seems women have far more power and prestige generally then men, other then in a few select examples we hear about and see because those core characters are POVs

[Gertrude]

Frey Pie, that is my point.