A Memory of Light [FULL SPOILER DISCUSSION] Part 2

[elmis]

Glabrain, Graendal killed Asmodean in Andor. The DO did not return him, as he had betrayed the cause. This was answered in the text, and in one of summaries at the end of one of the last books.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

The purpose was also to kill all the Trollocs. They can't just let them roam free across the countryside or they'll kill tons of people and spread out and be a pain to clean up. They want to keep them confined. They also wanted to pull the Trollocs out of the Blight, so they needed to force the shadow to commit all their forces.

They also can't hole up in a city since with the One Power, walls aren't so useful and plus the Trollocs will just set up a siege and go around them.

For hit and run tactics, that seems like the smartest thing. As I remember, the Trolloc Wars were described in that way to some extent. Basically, a series of running retreats by humans and then a quick reverse and hard strike when the opportunity presented itself.

They seem to be somewhat employing this where they could actually (Egwene's army seemed to be pretty much doing this exclusively and Elayne's somewhat as well), except where they had natural land formations to switch to other tactics (Lan at Tarwin's Gap). It's not quite described clearly in the book though.

The limitation on gateways seems to be that they are very tiring to use and they aren't that large so any time you are moving troops with one, it's a huge bottle-neck. Like a bridge basically. Makes them less ideal for large scale troop mobility.

Open a gateway, shot arrows through, close it, open a gateway fire cannon through close it (they actually did this at the end but should have been doing it all along). Open gate way on top of them, let lava, water, dirt, rocks, fall on top of them, close gate way. I mean there was so many ways they could have harassed the enemy army that choosing to face them in open combat. As for terrain. Heck they close have closed Tarwin's Gap with a gate opened and dropping rocks through it.

Anyway all the military maneuverings in the book just felt extremely silly, and since 75% of the book was about the fighting the whole thing just didn't feel realistic to me.

[glabrain]

Obviously the WoT world is not a modern world. Spanking a grown woman was acceptable because - hello - patriarchy. Men could hit their wives with no social repercussions because women were supposed to be submissive to their husband. They deserved that spanking because they didn't have a hot meal on the table, don'tcha know. Men (in general) are stronger and get to make the rules.

Look, I don't want to get into all this in a modern context, but this is not the world Jordan is trying to create. He wants us to see women as more empowered. There are Queens and powerful Aes Sedai. Even look at the Women's Circle in Emond's Field. At worst, women are seen as different but equal. Spanking does not work in that context and even country bumpkin Perrin should realize that. How does a community evolve in Randland that allows men to hit women when women are in control of the ultimate power and any woman could potentially possess it? It also doesn't square with Perrin's core of holding back. He's held back his strength all his life for fear of hurting someone, but throwing Faile over his knee he does without a second thought. That scene was gratuitous and has no internal logic behind it.

I get what you are saying, I really do, but this is a major problem with Jordan. Not the spanking specifically, but he rarely goes beyond superficial window dressing when he wants to make a point. "How would a society look where women are stronger instead of men? Hmm, I know, I'll make Queens and mysterious Aes Sedai. A few countries where women have the upperhand and perhaps an odd quirk in custom here and there. Done." He doesn't really think the rest of it through. That's why I find that example jarring.

The Aes Sedai on Aes Sedai punishment is what it is. He chose to put it in, and whatever. The spanking of Semi was an extension of this, but it was executed horribly and not believably. Do I believe that she could be broken by refusing to be intimidated by her, of course. Do I think one spanking could reduce her to scraping food from the floor to eat? Of course not.

I didn't realize that the Aes Sedai and Queens get involved with spanking. There's a feminist movement thread on the General Chatter forums for your desired purposes.

[fionwe1987]

Finally finished the book, I stopped reading the series in the middle of Winter's Heart. But given the amount of time I invested in it I thought I should at least finish the story. So I read plot summaries of all the other books from WH to TToM, and read MoL.

My main comment about the book is that it's ok. I'm glad the story is finished, but most of the book was spend on battles that made no sense to me. If the main purpose of the side battles was to "give Rand the time he needed to fight the DO", then wouldn't the best way to do that be putting your armies in strongly defended castles and cities(like Tar Valon) and hunker down for sieges? Isn't that a much better delay tactic then meeting forces that greatly outnumber you in open field? After all, the goal wasn't to win, it was to hold out as long as possible.

To the bolded part: that's the ending of the Lord of the Rings. That was never the goal in WoT. Rand's fight with the DO didn't take much time at all, and while more Trollocs there could have disrupted things, the forces of the Light also had an excellent bottleneck to keep the huge armies at bay.

And cities are useless, with Gateways. Trollocs can't use them, but Dreadords can. And walls can be destroyed with no problems either. And the Trolloc armies were large enough that they could leave a large enough force to lay siege to any city, and still have the numbers to ravage the countryside and kill all the people there. That's why Mat decided to gamble it all on one gigantic offensive. Demandred would have a chance to completely crush the opposition from the Light, all in one swoop. Which was an exciting enough proposition to make him commit his entire Sharan and Trolloc armies to the battle. That was Mat's design. They couldn't afford a 300 year Trolloc War. The world just didn't have the resources for it.

And if you were going to engage such an enemy , wouldn't it make sense to utilize guerrilla tactics of tactical strikes that move in and out constantly to harass the enemies (made even better with gateways), but never actually fighting them head on, be the best way to proceed. It just didn't make sense to me that they were always engaging the enemy in these full scale battles that seemed like awful strategy.

Guerrilla tactics are useless when the enemy outnumbers you more than 10 to 1. Their early battles allowed them to whittle down that number just enough that the Last Battle at Merrilor became feasible. Guerrila tactics would be fine if a long term strategy would be acceptable. But it was not. They needed to engage all the Trollocs at once.

[Rhom]

I mean there was so many ways they could have harassed the enemy army that choosing to face them in open combat. As for terrain. Heck they close have closed Tarwin's Gap with a gate opened and dropping rocks through it.

Or since the problem at Tarwin's Gap was Trollocs (who can't pass through a gateway) open a massive gateway wtih a full circle that goes from one end of the Gap to the other and tie off the weave. Defend the other side from any dreadlords that decide to come on through.

[fionwe1987]

Open a gateway, shot arrows through, close it, open a gateway fire cannon through close it (they actually did this at the end but should have been doing it all along). Open gate way on top of them, let lava, water, dirt, rocks, fall on top of them, close gate way. I mean there was so many ways they could have harassed the enemy army that choosing to face them in open combat. As for terrain. Heck they close have closed Tarwin's Gap with a gate opened and dropping rocks through it.

Anyway all the military maneuverings in the book just felt extremely silly, and since 75% of the book was about the fighting the whole thing just didn't feel realistic to me.

You're right that the battle tactics were silly, but not for the reasons you state. Opening such a large Gateways and keeping it open will sap the strength of the channelers very quickly. And Dreadlords can, and will, disrupt the weave. Sure, they could have other channelers defend against the Dreadlords, but the circle holding the Gateway open would still be vulnerable.

That said, there's no reason this tactic couldn't have been used in Kandor. Egwene's army faced no Dreadlords, and they even see that Trollocs are unable to pass through Gateways. I fail to see why Aes Sedai went to individual hills to fight. They could have opened Gateways, tied them off (since there were no Dreadlords to cut the weaves), then attacked through the Gateways. The trollocs wouldn't be able to enter the Gateways, so the Aes Sedai would be safe from attacks. It would have been an even more one sided battle than it turned out to be. Very disappointing.

[Shryke]

I also like how the twitter chat mentions Dobraine. I wondered why they forgot him but it seems RJ did at least leave a note about Dobby.

Because the book forgets virtually every non-major character. And even alot of the major ones and their relationships. Fuck, you can pretty much count on one hand the number of character we spend more time with then Androl, a character that didn't exist till Sanderson took over the series and isn't even that important.

The book is chalk full of pointless trolloc-fighting scenes and virtually devoid of character moments before the end.

[Shryke]

Open a gateway, shot arrows through, close it, open a gateway fire cannon through close it (they actually did this at the end but should have been doing it all along). Open gate way on top of them, let lava, water, dirt, rocks, fall on top of them, close gate way. I mean there was so many ways they could have harassed the enemy army that choosing to face them in open combat. As for terrain. Heck they close have closed Tarwin's Gap with a gate opened and dropping rocks through it.

Anyway all the military maneuverings in the book just felt extremely silly, and since 75% of the book was about the fighting the whole thing just didn't feel realistic to me.

There's alot of silly in there, to be sure.

In general though, the problem is you can't run alot of harassing tactics. It's not effective enough against a horde that big, the horde will just spread out if not engaged (diminishing the usefulness of your tactics) and they spend most of the book worried about portals near the enemy because the enemy can throw shit back through them.

[fionwe1987]

Because the book forgets virtually every non-major character. And even alot of the major ones and their relationships. Fuck, you can pretty much count on one hand the number of character we spend more time with then Androl, a character that didn't exist till Sanderson took over the series and isn't even that important.

The book is chalk full of pointless trolloc-fighting scenes and virtually devoid of character moments before the end.

Brandon didn't just forget existing relationships. He invented some that didn't exist. Mat and Min treat each other like old friends who've talked a lot. This has never happened, and never could have happened even off screen. In Baerlon, they barely interacted. In Falme, Mat was very sick, and was soon on his way to Tar Valon. Mat and Min are acquaintances, at best.

[peterbound]

So, gateways can cut through anything, right. Why don't they just open up a big flat gateway and cut through the ranks of the enemy? I never understood that. Quick, clean kills, and little energy spent.

[Shryke]

So, gateways can cut through anything, right. Why don't they just open up a big flat gateway and cut through the ranks of the enemy? I never understood that. Quick, clean kills, and little energy spent.

There's deathgates which are basically that.

Frankly right now I'm trying to remember if you can even open a gateway horizontally. I don't remember if RJ ever showed it was possible or said it could be done.

[fionwe1987]

So, gateways can cut through anything, right. Why don't they just open up a big flat gateway and cut through the ranks of the enemy? I never understood that. Quick, clean kills, and little energy spent.

Its hard to place a Gateway like that. Gateways are very fine weaves, and don't have much thickness at all. So your Gateway would have to open at the exact right position to cut through a rank of Trollocs. Which is why you have Deathgates.

As for horizontal Gateways, nothing to say it is impossible, in the books. We just never saw it. I did find the fact that Demandred says no one considered this in the AoL to be absurd, though.

[Brendan Moody]

Jordan said in 1996 that non-vertical gateways could be created, and that the reason none had been seen in the series to date was that they hadn't been necessary and some channelers who could do vertical gateways didn't know how to make them. Then in 2003 he was asked about horizontal gateways specifically, and had to think about it for a few seconds before saying "I don't see why not."

[Reposado]

Because the book forgets virtually every non-major character. And even alot of the major ones and their relationships. Fuck, you can pretty much count on one hand the number of character we spend more time with then Androl, a character that didn't exist till Sanderson took over the series and isn't even that important.

The book is chalk full of pointless trolloc-fighting scenes and virtually devoid of character moments before the end.

androl, while somewhat well-done, was definitely unnecessary, the black tower mess could have been solved by logain, which would have meant one fewer character that needed to do something important at the end.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

The other issue I hate with Gateways is that the Sharan's obvious can use it, since they used it for their sneak attack, and then we never see them use it again, ever. Why?

Also, obviously flat gateways can be created, since the entire book they used flat gateways in the sky to view the battlefield.

[Shryke]

The other issue I hate with Gateways is that the Sharan's obvious can use it, since they used it for their sneak attack, and then we never see them use it again, ever. Why?

They do use them again. They move onto the heights at the field of Merrilor via gateway, for instance.

Also, obviously flat gateways can be created, since the entire book they used flat gateways in the sky to view the battlefield.

The question was whether that's an asspull/retcon by Sanderson or not.

[Gertrude]

I shouldn't be surprised to see comments like these on Westeros. :P I think there is a very big difference between "suitable for young teenagers" and YA.

There's nothing YA about the map of Tar Valon, for example. And there's more to 'adult themes' than explicit sex and lots of death. And as for knowing your audience, and focusing on the funny...I think RJ knew his readers didn't like to be preached at. It was a way of getting people—not everyone, mind—to discuss a double standard that bothered him. And it worked, except in the sense that people somehow took it (for no discernable reason) to mean that RJ condoned rape, or thought rape was funny. He thought our double-standards about rape were funny. If he hadn't portrayed it the way he did, then we probably wouldn't be having debates on whether or not it was rape.

How else would you define YA? I thought that assumed young to mid teens. I agree that this is geared more toward older teens and younger adults, but it still has a slightly juvenile feel to me. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that I am not the target audience anymore.

I in no way think RJ condones rape or thinks it's funny, just they he could have written the situation more clearly. Yes, I know all the right clues are in there and a discerning reader should pick them up. We can disagree on how well it worked, I guess. And no, I don't think adult means violence and sex. I don't think WoT is very deep and even when dealing with serious themes, it comes across as slightly shallow. Good and Bad are strictly delineated and the good guys prevail at (honestly) very little personal loss. For example, the body count was ridiculously low for the battle to end all battles.

I didn't realize that the Aes Sedai and Queens get involved with spanking. There's a feminist movement thread on the General Chatter forums for your desired purposes.

I.m sorry. I'll move my obviously inferior views out of your big manly thread so you can enjoy it without us pesky women.

[Shryke]

The body count was actually quite high. People getting killed in huge numbers. (and what should have been huger numbers since Sanderson seems to have scaled everything down by a factor of like 3)

If you mean "the body count among major characters", I guess. But that seems a poor descriptor of pretty much anything to me.

For YA, you would need to come up with some reasonable description for YA first before you decide if WOT is that. And then you'd need to explain why that description mattered.

[Gertrude]

Numerous faceless people died, several named but who really cares characters died, and we had one Major charachter death who went out in a blaze of over the top awesomeness, and a (not really) major character go out in a blaze of dumbassery who, IMO, was a waste of space anyway. (I would say that Siuan, Bryne and Davram were secondary/tertiary characters we cared about, but their deaths were merely meh.) None of it, except Egwene, felt immediate or dire or anything other than window dressing to make it more horrific. And Egwene's death was sad, but she got to god-damn accomplish something with her sacrifice, so it was inspiring rather than adding to the feeling of horror and loss.

OK, YA is probably not the right descriptor. PG is probably the better way to frame it. I don't really feel like arguing it because it is basically my opinion vs your opinion and neither one of is is going to be swayed. I've said multiple times that I know I am not the most objective of reviewers because I measure the actual story to the potential I see it having and it falls short every time.It's a very, very good story executed fair to middling, with stretches of poorly. (and of course, several isolated moments of awesome. Mostly in the first few books, however.)

[Relic]

Frankly right now I'm trying to remember if you can even open a gateway horizontally. I don't remember if RJ ever showed it was possible or said it could be done.

Werent the viewing gateways they used to watch the progress of the battles horizontal? That's the impression i got.