A Memory of Light [FULL SPOILER DISCUSSION] Part 2

[fionwe1987]

Gertrude: I agree with you the Perrin scene is weird and out of place, and doesn't fit into the argument I'm making. To be honest, though, I had to go dig through the books to even find it.

But as for the rest, I mostly disagree. The books are not a deep look at how women holding power would affect the world, but nor is it as superficial as you would have it.

Interestingly, while hunting for that Perrin reference, I came across references that make it clear that in Far Madding, physical punishment of husbands by wives is pretty much standard. The innkeeper of the place Rand and co. stay in even asks Min if she wants a room to strap Rand for being stupid... :ack:

[Gertrude]

I could have sworn I read something by him that said he wanted to explore a world where women held power. Not a matriarchal society per se, but how people view women when they are not necessarily the 'weaker' sex. It's been a while since I read that, but it's stuck with me and informs some of my opinions on the matter. If he wanted to explore it, I think he did a poor job of it. He has his strong female characters, and some cultural quirks where women run things, but overall, he didn't really explore it but rather spread a thin coat of frosting over it.

As for being superficial, this is what I think. If you read carefully and interpret a few things favorably, it is deeper than it appears. IMO it lacks execution. Jordan was a great storyteller, but not a great author and the details and characterization wasn't as good as I would have liked. I admit I am not a fully objective reader - I always compare it with the potential I see the series having and the reality falls flat for me.

Oh yes, it was this lovely quote. (the first part of this makes me grind my teeth, btw. grrr)

By the by, I’ve seen a lot of comment, apparently from men, that my female characters are unrealistic. That’s because women are, for the most part, consummate actresses who allow men to see exactly what they intend men to see. Get behind the veil sometimes, boys, and your hair will turn white. I’ve been there, and mine went white and didn’t stop there; a great deal of it actually turned dark again, the shock to my system was so great. Believe me, I mild it down so as not to scare any males into mental breakdowns (14th, 2006).

On the large scale, the gender relationships in the Wheel grew from the very beginnings of the books, really. I recall seeing a paperback book back in the 70s, a fantasy novel about a young woman who wasn’t allowed to become a magician of whatever sort it was because she was a woman. The notion struck me as interesting, since it was the first fantasy novel with that theme that I had ever seen, but what really stuck with me was this. That novel was a simple reflection of the then-current mundane world, but what about if it were men who were not allowed to become whatever it was? Now that would be an interesting twist, and unexpected. Why would that be, and how could it be enforced? As Harriet has often pointed out, many of the world’s gender inequalities stem from superior male upper body strength. (To which I usually say, “Oh, dear! Isn’t that awful and unfair!” While pulling off my shirt and flexing my biceps, to be sure,) From that genesis grew the division of the One Power into a male and a female half with the male half tainted, giving a reason why men not only would not be allowed to become Aes Sedai, as they were not then called, but must not be allowed even to channel, again as it was not then called. From that, and from the history that I was even then beginning to put together for this world, though I didn’t realize it then, came the result of 3000+ plus years when men who can wield the ultimate power, the One Power, are to be feared and hated above all things, when the only safety from such men comes from the one stable center of political, and other, power for those 3000+ years, a female center of power. The view I then had was a world with a sort of gender equality. Not the matriarchy that some envision — Far Madding is the only true matriarchy in the lot — but gender equality as it might work out given various things that seem to be hard-wired into male and female brains. The result is what you see (December 19th, 2005).

I find it interesting that he didn't approach it from women being powerful, but from the angle that men were dangerous and unreliable. However he got there, he was going for equality. I don't think he got it quite right. Now if Siuan were to spank Gareth for being willful, or Faile had turned Perrin over her knee, we would be having a different discussion.

[elmis]

The spanking of Semi was an extension of this, but it was executed horribly and not believably. Do I believe that she could be broken by refusing to be intimidated by her, of course. Do I think one spanking could reduce her to scraping food from the floor to eat? Of course not.

I agree so much with this part, that was handled horribly.

[Shryke]

Obviously the WoT world is not a modern world. Spanking a grown woman was acceptable because - hello - patriarchy. Men could hit their wives with no social repercussions because women were supposed to be submissive to their husband. They deserved that spanking because they didn't have a hot meal on the table, don'tcha know. Men (in general) are stronger and get to make the rules.

Look, I don't want to get into all this in a modern context, but this is not the world Jordan is trying to create. He wants us to see women as more empowered. There are Queens and powerful Aes Sedai. Even look at the Women's Circle in Emond's Field. At worst, women are seen as different but equal. Spanking does not work in that context and even country bumpkin Perrin should realize that. How does a community evolve in Randland that allows men to hit women when women are in control of the ultimate power and any woman could potentially possess it? It also doesn't square with Perrin's core of holding back. He's held back his strength all his life for fear of hurting someone, but throwing Faile over his knee he does without a second thought. That scene was gratuitous and has no internal logic behind it.

See, there is an internal logic behind it. Both situations involve spanking in that it's a punishment for a misbehaviour. It's not man on woman so much as it is parent on child or the like. Both the Perrin/Faile thing and the Gareth/Siuane thing read to me more like somebody being treated like a child. This is pretty much the root of a husband on wife non-sexual spanking too, but there the parent/child setup is rooted in sexism (women are childish and silly, men are the head of the household, etc) whereas here it seems more rooted in the specific behaviour at the time.

Spanking in general in the series comes up as a form of discipline for children or contexts similar to that and not as a form of patriarchy.

It also squares with Perrin's holding back in that he hits Faile back not by actually hitting her like someone in a fight, but like someone disciplining a child. Once you are within the framework that spanking a child is suitable punishment, then spanking becomes a lesser form of aggression.

I get what you are saying, I really do, but this is a major problem with Jordan. Not the spanking specifically, but he rarely goes beyond superficial window dressing when he wants to make a point. "How would a society look where women are stronger instead of men? Hmm, I know, I'll make Queens and mysterious Aes Sedai. A few countries where women have the upperhand and perhaps an odd quirk in custom here and there. Done." He doesn't really think the rest of it through. That's why I find that example jarring.

I don't think it's completely 100% rigorous, but he does far more then window dressing. As that quote you pulled in your later post shows, it's not about women being superior, but about a sort of divided equality between the sexes. It's a theme that runs throughout the whole series (in ways good and problematic). As tiring as the gender politics in the series get, there's no real examples of patriarchy within relationships in the series that I can think of.

The Aes Sedai on Aes Sedai punishment is what it is. He chose to put it in, and whatever. The spanking of Semi was an extension of this, but it was executed horribly and not believably. Do I believe that she could be broken by refusing to be intimidated by her, of course. Do I think one spanking could reduce her to scraping food from the floor to eat? Of course not.

That scene was not well done at all. Far too drastic a character change in too short a time.

PS -

I find it interesting that he didn't approach it from women being powerful, but from the angle that men were dangerous and unreliable.

He did approach it from the angle of women being powerful. "Men are dangerous and scary and women are powerful and protect us from the dangerous and scary men" is what he says is the genesis of the culture of his world in that quote.

[Frey Pie]

Frey Pie, that is my point.

In that case then i see the difference as negligible. Women do hold more of the power in the upper echelons of society in the WOT then men do, and overall the world is far more balanced then the Medieval/Industrial revolution time period from our own history. One could even say that the balance is closer then in todays society, looking politically. I think RJ tried to bring equality to the table, and make it believable at the same time, as in he didnt give every woman physical superiority, or greater martial skills, but gave more of those things then what we would see in our society back in those times, while making females the dominant political powers on the continent, and giving them the lions share of overall power aswel. Look at the Last Battle-Elayne is the HC of the forces, while Egwene is the most powerful of the factions. Rand is needed to win, but without those two it would be a empty win indeed. Would Rand have won without Egwene? I dont think so. She was as integral to the Lights success as Rand was in the end

For every Perrin spanking Faile moment, theres almost a hundred of him cringing inside because he doesnt know why shes angry with him. Theres times where she slaps him and he responds with no response. Basically, yes there are a few stand-out moments but by and large there is far more equality then i often see the books given credit for IMHO

And if any of that came off as sexist i apologise. Its probably more my clumsy writing then any actual beliefs on my part

[The Anti-Targ]

Finished aMoL last night. What a slog. I'm glad I finished the series off, but it is a book in-keeping with the quality of the final books in the series rather than the early books in the series. So I'm happy to be leaving the series behind.

If this well were to be tapped again in the future I'm not sure I'd go back to it.

Rand shoulda died for reals. Ending as Moridan's body snatcher was unsatisfying for me.

Overall I don't think the series is worth the time investment that reading 14 massive books takes. Unless you can knock off each book inside 8-10 hours; which is well beyond me with any level of comrehension.

[williamjm]

I finished the book last weekend. It's certainly not perfect, but I think it gets enough right that I'm willing to mostly overlook the flaws and I think it is a good conclusion to the series. I thought both the Last Battle and Rand's confrontation with the Dark One worked well, but some other aspects of the book weren't as good. The earlier skirmishes were mostly dull and repetitive, attritional battles against a faceless horde of Trollocs aren't interesting to read fortunately the addition of Demandred and the Sharans helped make the Merrillor battle more interesting even if battle scenes don't really seem to be Sanderson or Jordan's strong point. In some ways I would have liked to have a bit more interaction between some of the characters, it is a bit frustrating that while we now have many of the characters who have been separated for most of the series together in one place many of them still don't get that many scenes together. Since this is already a very long book I can see why some characters don't get much screentime, but it's a shame we didn't see more from the newly-rescued Moraine, for example.

I skimmed through the two threads, some comments on what was said there, and some things I didn't see mentioned:

- I wondered whether Jordan wrote the line where Loial thinks that 'I can't die yet, I've still got a book to write', and the later line where he no longer thinks that he will get to write his book, but he still keeps taking notes of some of the things that are happening in the Last Battle. I can imagine Jordan might have been thinking something similar.

- Some people seemed to want a longer epilogue with more detail of the aftermath of the Last Battle. I think it's a good decision not to go on for too long after the plot has finished, I think it's best to avoid a lengthy epilogue. I do agree that the way Rand's jump into Moridin's body was shown was a bit anticlimatic.

- I've seen it said that they won't be doing any of the proposed spin-off novels. I think the Seanchan sequel could have been interesting with Tuon attempting to reconquer Seanchan and I think the Seanchan's treatment of the Damane is perhaps the biggest unresolved issue in the series. It's a bit difficult to see how the Dragon's Peace will last for long while they're still keeping Damane, particularly their captured Aes Sedai and Wise Ones.

- Does Tam know that Rand survived? I can see why Rand doesn't want to tell many people that he is still alive, but I think Tam at least deserves to know that he's not really attending his son's funeral.

- one of the futures Rand shows the Dark One seems to be consistent with what happened in the book (the one where Emond's Field has become a great city). Sometimes visions of the future are regarded as being set in stone in the series, I'm guessing this isn't one of those, it's just one possible outcome?

- as other people have commented they seemed to reduce the effectiveness of channellers when fighting Trollocs. I think it was a mistake to have the Trolloc army be slaughtered so easily by Rand and the Asha'man in Knife of Dreams, it was always going to cause problems for the Last Battle.

- I think the bit I liked least was that it continued the plotline of Rand being unable to choose between his three lovers, it's a pity that one of the last things in the epilogue is focusing on possibly the worst plotline in the series.

- I think my favourite bit when reading it might have been Rand sending the Borderlanders to aid Lan's hopeless charge at Tarwin's Gap.

[Darth Richard]

I've been wondering if the chapter 'at the edge of time' was a shout out to Blind Guardian, whose latest album titled such had two wheel of time related songs on it.

[Shryke]

I finished the book last weekend. It's certainly not perfect, but I think it gets enough right that I'm willing to mostly overlook the flaws and I think it is a good conclusion to the series. I thought both the Last Battle and Rand's confrontation with the Dark One worked well, but some other aspects of the book weren't as good. The earlier skirmishes were mostly dull and repetitive, attritional battles against a faceless horde of Trollocs aren't interesting to read fortunately the addition of Demandred and the Sharans helped make the Merrillor battle more interesting even if battle scenes don't really seem to be Sanderson or Jordan's strong point. In some ways I would have liked to have a bit more interaction between some of the characters, it is a bit frustrating that while we now have many of the characters who have been separated for most of the series together in one place many of them still don't get that many scenes together. Since this is already a very long book I can see why some characters don't get much screentime, but it's a shame we didn't see more from the newly-rescued Moraine, for example.

The thing is, it's a long book but there's tons of shit you could have cut that wouldn't matter near as much as things like that.

I'd rather have seen some meaningful closure on the various characters, major and minor, that the books have touched on over the years then another action scene.

What's most struck me, thinking back on AMOL, is how many of the little things from the series are just completely dropped in the last book.

[Jon Wolfwalker]

What's most struck me, thinking back on AMOL, is how many of the little things from the series are just completely dropped in the last book.

Setalle, knew the most of any AS about TerG's and did squat.

[Cause]

(this convo is kind of like 'was Matt raped'. Either you get it or you don't and it's always exhausting to argue)

This caught my eye, I'm curious what are your arguing that Mat was definitely Raped or most certainly not? I have never actually seen it argued over much and it was only after a re-read that I actually realized how disturbing the interpretation could be. Is there actually a consensus on this issue?

[Rhom]

This caught my eye, I'm curious what are your arguing that Mat was definitely Raped or most certainly not? I have never actually seen it argued over much and it was only after a re-read that I actually realized how disturbing the interpretation could be. Is there actually a consensus on this issue?

We spent almost 10 pages of a thread discussing it in one of the AMoL lead up threads on this board just a month ago or so! :lol:

I think the general consensus is that he was raped without a doubt, but that Jordan handled the whole thing horribly and you can't really know if Jordan meant for it to be rape. There was even a quote someone provided from Harriet that was very disturbing where she basically said "The slut got what he deserved." :stunned:

[Frey Pie]

Ya id never heard of it so i posed the question months ago when i saw someone reference it. He was undoubtedly forced to have sex with her, and wanted out. What confuses the matter is his obvious sexual attraction toher, and his emotional feelings for her. He didnt love her but cared greatly for her, which makes the matter more complex

[Reposado]

so finished today, and i'd like to direct the thread away from spanking/matt rape since they've been discussed ad nauseum and didnt't happen in amol

i though it was ok, if a letdown from the first two sanderson books, but i'm glad that the battle took as long as it did. this is an epic, 14 book series that was heading towards a last battle from the beginning. that last battle had to be epic. maybe it could've been a bit shorter but not less than 2/3 of what we got.

that said, i think it could have been paced better with more important events being spaced throughout. iirc, there was one significant death in the first 700 pages (gawyn) all of the important events got clumped towards the end. something like graendal going out earlier, or a few submajors getting their moment in the first ten chapters and then dying would have been more meaningful.

it just kinda clumped at the end and it was hard to tell what made the difference. for me, it seemed like blowing the horn accomplished nothing, because even after the heroes of the horn and the seanchan returned, they were still in dire straits?? there should have been more swings of huge import along the way, where the horn, min with tuon, actually seem to accomplish something.

and the almost deathsalso bugged me, the series didn't need galad and ituralde to survive. they both got their moment. its not important going forward for the throne of arad doman to be secure. it's the last battle, and hordes died on both sides, but submajor characters survived at an alarming rate.

[Relic]

and i'd like to direct the thread away from spanking/matt rape since they've been discussed ad nauseum and didnt't happen in amol

i guess no one is interested in spank-less discussion?

[Terez]

I think the general consensus is that he was raped without a doubt, but that Jordan handled the whole thing horribly and you can't really know if Jordan meant for it to be rape. There was even a quote someone provided from Harriet that was very disturbing where she basically said "The slut got what he deserved." :stunned:

I have never seen this quote (or anything like it), and I made this so that is saying something.

I don't think RJ necessarily handled it badly; he communicated in the text how wrong it was, and also communicated how the double-standards tend to play into it. He was able to pull it off IMO because he used a character who knows how to make the best of any situation, but his intention was to highlight our double standards concerning gender, and he obviously succeeded at that. I don't know how people read it and get "RJ is okay with men being raped" out of it. He even contrasted the girls' insensitive comments about a "taste of his own medicine" with Mat's thoughts about how he never chased women who didn't want to be chased, and that it wasn't the same thing at all. RJ and Harriet both saw it as a humorous way to bring attention to the logical absurdity of implying that someone who is promiscuous therefore deserves rape. Mat rolled with it, but there was nothing in the text to suggest that it wasn't wrong. There are lots of ethically dubious things happening in the books that are taken as a matter of course by some of the characters, like slavery for instance. That doesn't mean RJ is endorsing slavery; it just means he's trying to honestly convey a culture that is very different from our own cultures (yet similar to the cultures of our past). There have been times when a woman who "was asking for it" could be raped and it would be taken as a matter of course. Just because we can see the injustice of it doesn't mean that the characters necessarily should.

[Gertrude]

Eh, it's done and nothing was particularly exciting or so well done I want to talk about it. Nothing to speculate about. I get the feeling that most people in this thread are in about the same place - it was a decent ending, but nothing spectacular, and now it's done. The end. Kind of sad, really.

eta: this was a response to Relic.

[peterbound]

RJ and Harriet both saw it as a humorous way to bring attention to the logical absurdity of implying that someone who is promiscuous therefore deserves rape.

Great subject to joke about. Hell, I laughed out loud.

For me, it was just handled poorly. Most of the 'adult' themed material in the books were. WoT falls pretty well into the YA fantasy field for me, and when RJ attempted to dip his toes into areas outside of that, he usually fucked it up.

ETA: I won't even start on how fucking inept BS is at tacking mature themes.

[Darth Richard]

Rape is hilarious, what are you talking about?

*that is sarcasm*

[Terez]

Again, just because it's a touchy subject for us doesn't mean that it necessarily should be for the characters. Tuon often joked about making Mat a cupbearer. To her, it was funny. Is slavery funny? No, of course not. But it would be incredibly unrealistic to expect Tuon to see it our way.