[Book spoilers] Northern bannermen ( or lack thereof )

[So1ar]

Another thing that won't be very sad is the loss of Robb's wolf (I call him that because they have not once mentioned his name being Grey Wind). He stood next to Robb's horse for about a second in one scene this season. The last time we saw him was episode 1 of season 2. I wonder if people even remember that he has a wolf.

[Cas Stark]

They havent completely neglected her. She has had two of the longest monologues this season. Its only really in the last three episodes that she's been neglected. I'm fairly sure she will be a big focus on the wedding, I just think there will be limits to how horrific her reaction will be.

Right, because really, why should the audience see her for more than a flash in the episodes leading up to the Red Wedding, that would be crazy. It will be way more clever to spring her back on the audience who has barely laid eyes on her for a month and then her die, that is super TV genius right there.

[juanml82]

But honestly, what does Catelyn do in the books at this point? Her povs prior to the RW are about what she sees rather than what she does. Besides opposing to legitimizing Jon, and pretty much telling everyone want they don't want to hear, I don't recall her doing much.

And that doesn't translate to a lot of screen time without small plot changes

[Theda Baratheon]

They havent completely neglected her. She has had two of the longest monologues this season. Its only really in the last three episodes that she's been neglected. I'm fairly sure she will be a big focus on the wedding, I just think there will be limits to how horrific her reaction will be.

i hope we get the going completely insane and scratching her face

LMAO

omg is it bad im actually cryign with laughter at my own joke

LOL I AM SO LAME

[Joyful Union]

Right, because really, why should the audience see her for more than a flash in the episodes leading up to the Red Wedding, that would be crazy. It will be way more clever to spring her back on the audience who has barely laid eyes on her for a month and then her die, that is super TV genius right there.

It doesn't even look like your responding to my post at all. Where in that post did I say that neglecting her these past three episodes was a good thing?

[Underzaker]

Having Greatjon would have solved everything but alas ...

[Mulled Wino]

Why would I apologize for an absolutely fantastic and successful show that in large parts has improved on the weaknesses of Martin's original material?

lmao!!!!!!

obvious troll is obvious

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

2) This one I don't see getting much attention: Robb actually had a plan of retaking the North!

One major inconsistency in that plan was that it left Riverrun in a horrible position. Riverrun almost fell to the Lannisters before Robb arrived in the South. Robb's plan involved completely abandoning Edmure, which would have left him at the mercy of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance. He'd never have held, so the plan to go North never made much sense to me. Unless you assume Robb was going to let the Tullys fall.

[juanml82]

One major inconsistency in that plan was that it left Riverrun in a horrible position. Riverrun almost fell to the Lannisters before Robb arrived in the South. Robb's plan involved completely abandoning Edmure, which would have left him at the mercy of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance. He'd never have held, so the plan to go North never made much sense to me. Unless you assume Robb was going to let the Tullys fall.

Maybe he was. He had to know the Riverlands couldn't be defended from the Tyrells, but the North could be defended by land. How was he planning on dealing with the Redwyne Fleet is an open question, though. He couldn't possibly know Euron Greyjoy would attack the Reach.

[Mulled Wino]

Up until Season 2 episode 10 I would say you're 100% wrong. D&D made a major mistake by not letting Cat & Robb find out about Bran/Rickon prior to her setting Jaime free and him sleeping with Talisa. If they had kept that as it was, then Robb being comforted by Talisa would have been understandable. And people would understand why season 3 Robb is so angry, hurt, and burnt out. I saw an interview with Richard Madden where he explains that Robb is burnt out chasing the Lannisters and not actually gaining any ground yet the show doesn't explain this. They just show him angry all the time this season. They almost imply its because of Catelyn because he locks her up the first episode. D&D have done the greatest disservice to Cat and Robb this season than they have done to any characters in any seasons. They have their favorite actors and are giving them the time and attention that should be given to some beloved characters that will be gone after episode 9 (Cat & Robb). They could have had some of the other northern bannermen (Dacey, Smalljon, Manderlys, etc) as well as some of the riverlords (Pipers for example) and cut out some of the KL's whores or just cut some of Theon/Ramsay's screentime. Theon has gotten probably 45 mins of overdone brutal torture vs. characters that won't be around after this season. I try not to complain too much about the show vs. the books but this season's biggest failing has been the Robb/Cat storyline and that can't be fixed in future chapters. If people don't care about Robb now its because of what has happened since 2x08. Everyone loved Robb and Cat before.

yea, its clearly the biggest failure and its the most important story of this season. Not a good plotline for a swing and a miss. It will make for good tv, but could have been incredible tv

[Jolene Brown]

As much as I hate Talisa (SO much), to me, the cancer at the heart of this storyline is their inexplicable decision not to have Robb and Cat get the news of Bran and Rickon's death. It just makes no sense at any level. What were they thinking? It takes out so much of the motivation for Cat and Robb's actions and robbs (heh) the story of its tragic irony. It just kills me. I also so miss the scene between Cat and Brienne after Cat gets the news, even still. Would have been amazing.

ETA: Also, the usual excuses don't apply. No budget issues. No time issues. It would have been so simple. Instead, they went out of their way with the poisoning of the ravens (an additional scene) to show that the news wouldn't get out. If I had one question I would ask why they did this.

[Theda Baratheon]

RW is heartbreaking because of Catelyn and the fact she dies after she witnesses her only free child and her hope dying. If they don't show her terror and descent into madness, with her clawing her face, laughing and killing that innocent boy they'll fail to portray RW correctly.

I totally agree.

[houseHB]

Well we know Wendel Manderly has been cast this season so he will appear most likely for the first time in the next episode to introduce viewers to house Manderly.

[Darryk]

I'm still expecting Cat and Robb to receive news that Theon murdered Bran and Rickon, possibly around the same time "Boy" is revealed to be Bolton's Bastard. The audience would then realize that the Boltons are hiding the truth about Bran and Rickon's fate, and alarm bells would be ringing if they're not already.

If they have Robb and Cat going into the Red Wedding still believing that Bran and Rickon might be alive, that'd be really odd, since the whole point is that Cat believes Robb to be her last remaining son.

And yeah, the lack of loyal Stark bannerman is a big shame. Seeing Robb's bannerman cut down one by one as they tried to protect him was a big part of the RW's tragedy.

[The Flaying Man]

As much as I hate Talisa (SO much), to me, the cancer at the heart of this storyline is their inexplicable decision not to have Robb and Cat get the news of Bran and Rickon's death. It just makes no sense at any level. What were they thinking? It takes out so much of the motivation for Cat and Robb's actions and resolves the story of its tragic irony. It just kills me. I also so miss the scene between Cat and Brienne after Cat gets the news, even still. Would have been amazing.

ETA: Also, the usual excuses don't apply. No budget issues. No time issues. It would have been so simple. Instead, they went out of their way with the poisoning of the ravens (an additional scene) to show that the news wouldn't get out. If I had one question I would ask why they did this.

This. I wrote a long post at the beginning of this thread, but failed to mention the crux of the storyline around which Cat and Robb's decisions can be traced back to. It just makes no sense whatsoever for the producers to have omitted the news of Bran and Rickon's "deaths", and then attempt to amend their mistake by rushing it in (but still leaving it ambiguous).

[Cas Stark]

This. I wrote a long post at the beginning of this thread, but failed to mention the crux of the storyline around which Cat and Robb's decisions can be traced back to. It just makes no sense whatsoever for the producers to have omitted the news of Bran and Rickon's "deaths", and then attempt to amend their mistake by rushing it in (but still leaving it ambiguous).

It will be weird if Bolton tells them he has confirmed somehow that Bran and Rickon are dead in the little bit of time left, and of course there is no reason why Robb and the Blackfish don't already believe they are dead but instead think they may be alive and in hiding even though Theon publicly announced to Winterfell and the Ironborn he killed them. The whole thing is weird.

[Mulled Wino]

So we have 3 major northern lords. Karstark, bolton and stark. Bolton and karstark have already betrayed him. How surprising is it really for ulhim to be betrayed by the freys?

[AliKat]

The biggest thing they've screwed up for future stories is not showing how loyal the north REMAINS to the Starks and how they never forget what Bolton/Freys have done. The show makes it look like everything is about betraying Robb because of Talisa but Bolton/Frey/Lannister betrayed the North and the Starks and that is NOT done. When you have Wylla Manderly and Lyanna Mormont (two children!) reminding Davos and Stannis that they'll stay loyal to the Starks no matter what and the northern mountain clans are marching in a blizzard to save the Ned's daughter in the books, Manderly's risking his plans to get Davos to find Rickon, and on the show its like 'oh the starks except Sansa are dead? oh well' They have not shown at all how loyal to the Starks the North is. And that makes me feel like the show has failed with their storyline. Not to mention the fact that the Riverlords were pretty damn loyal to the Tullys and Robb. Seriously when I see how much time they spent on the Theon storyline this season when it could have been shown very limited this season then the majority of it next season (still long before he was NEEDED) it makes me mad. I agree Theon needed to shown but at the expense of characters who are dying this season - no, didn't need to be that way. And geez I love Queen of Thorns too but she doesn't have to have 5-10 mins an episode showing how much smarter than she is than the men of King's Landing to get their money's worth!

[Oakenfist]

So we have 3 major northern lords. Karstark, bolton and stark. Bolton and karstark have already betrayed him. How surprising is it really for ulhim to be betrayed by the freys?

Exactly. They've left out the most loyal North bannermen the Umbers, Manderly, Flints. And they turned the Karstarks into a small powerhouse, consisting of half his army.

[The Bear]

-snip-

Amazing post, you said everything that I was thinking and feeling far more eloquently than I ever could have.

I've complained about the missing bannermen before and for me they were a huge part of the emotional impact of the RW. Seeing all those loyal friends and bannermen of Robb's going down one by one was gut-wrenching. That's not going to be a part of this Red Wedding. I fear that since we don't know the individual bannermen, they'll try and 'amp up' the impact by making it really bloody and messy. I hope that isn't the case, though.

The Greatjon throwing the table over Robb and fighting with a lamb leg while staggeringly drunk was one of the strongest images of the RW for me. I hope they can pull it off, but I'm very concerned.