Children and Same Sex Couples

[Warg Arry]

Hey Skunk, hope you have a good time.

I agree with the; no prep, go with the flow advice.

That's how kids roll at the best of times.

At least you have the chance to have a few appropriate answers prepared. In case the spontaneous awkward question is asked. That way it will be more effective and natural than the sometimes inevitable flustered response from a left field question. Like the "Why's that man fat?" question I got while shopping with my nephew last week. Sometimes you just have to do the best you can with those teachable moments.

[Guy Kilmore]

Ah, I see we made the same mistake.

Yeah, of not signing up soon enough.

[Foxtrot0245]

Foxtrot - I haven't seen you retract your comment about two men being inappropriate is more weird than a heterosexual couple (acknowledging you are declaring the behaviour of both inappropriate), then stating you didn't say anything judging homosexuals. If what you meant to do was retract that and go with you just have high standards for what is appropriate in front of children regardless of the couple, then I'm a lot more OK with that but I think you should explicitly say that.

No, no retraction. I stand by the fact that explaining two men (or two women, that should have been in the other post) kissing would be harder than explaining a heterosexual couple kissing. But I would be equally perturbed at any of the three situations because, as I keep saying, this stuff doesn't belong in public IMO. Is that what all the hate is about? Can everyone chill now or am I still a monster for thinking you can love someone without being all over them in a public space?

[brook]

Is a beach house considered a public space now?

[karaddin]

"Weird" and "Hard to explain" are very different things. Hell harder to explain is correct, but to the point of being ridiculously obvious as there are no fears a heterosexual couple kissing would even require an explanation, so yes a gay couple kissing may require more explanation. Whether to do that explanation before or after the children see the couple was the question.

I would suggest "unusual" or "uncommon" rather than weird if you are legitimately not intending any judgement.

Are you really using the same definition of kissing to everyone else here? I really do think your definition of inappropriate is very puritan if so, if you are talking about full on making out that's a different story. I'm picturing a quick kiss on the lips without tongue.

[Stubby]

No, no retraction. I stand by the fact that explaining two men (or two women, that should have been in the other post) kissing would be harder than explaining a heterosexual couple kissing. But I would be equally perturbed at any of the three situations because, as I keep saying, this stuff doesn't belong in public IMO. Is that what all the hate is about? Can everyone chill now or am I still a monster for thinking you can love someone without being all over them in a public space?

Your opinion goes further than thinking you can love someone without being all over them in public.

For my part, the 'hate' as you put it, or 'valid intellectual criticism of an unsupported opinion' as I put it, is directed at your assertions that two men having sex (when the OP said that the couple in question were women) isn't normal, anal sex isn't normal, that being gay is a 'lifestyle choice' etc. You brought up stuff that wasn't relevant, was unsupported by evidence and was derogatory and you then complained when you were called on it. Further, your arrogant order to 'pipe down' and to stop 'gay white-knighting' was arrogant and dismissive.

When presented with a number of valid criticisms of your opinion, you have done nothing to respond in a substantive way and have instead resorted to peurile youtube-style insults. You can, of course, say shit and fuck if you want to. We don't give a fuck about that. We give a fuck about those who denigrate other humans without valid reasons. My reply to you was asking for those reasons and you suggested it was an 'overly defensive and assumptive rant' and made no attempt to address the issues I raised. This was hardly the response of someone interested in mature discussion.

[TerraPrime]

The fact that the single most rude and stubbornly hardheaded person in this thread is a moderator blows my mind. Ban me if it's all you got, but you can take your "friendly reminder" and shove it up your mother's fartbox, where your dad must have spilled the best part of your wits.

It surprises me not one bit that you think a person's wit resides in his/her father's semen, though it does give one great trepidation in contemplating your opinion about the origin of one's intellect. Some questions are best left unanswered, indeed.

And I don't know why you would want to use this presumed insult anyway, since it's biologically wrong and it appeals to one's low opinion on anal intercourse. As an ardent and seasoned practitioner of the finer form of fornication from the fanny, I assure you I harbor no such distaste for cruising the Hershey highway astride the one-eyed snake. You should join me, for laying beyond the gate guarded by the earthy chocolate starfish is the warm velveteen embrace that strokes, most exquisitely, like Leda's feather on Zeus' bearded face, the hardened resolve of self. Plus, if you were right about the source of wit, you might just absorb some much needed extra to fortify your deficiency in the area from my not-to-be child.

[brook]

See this is why we need the like button!

[Free Northman]

Can one have a personal opinion on the matter and express it (without the intention of forcing others to conform to this opinion), even if it goes against the prevailing opinion on the board?

Or should you rather just stay silent?

I think it is no coincidence that the opinions expressed around here on these types of topics are so overwhelmingly one sided. It's because a lot of other people just don't want to comment, given the the reaction that is inevitably unleashed upon them, and therefore don't bother even commenting on these types of threads.

Sure I have a personal opinion on what would be appropriate for the kids in this case. But I'm here to discuss A Song of Ice and Fire, primarily, and I don't want some guy who is pissed off at me due to something I said in General Chatter carrying that rage into a discussion on the Ice and Fire thread, where he would otherwise have agreed with me on the topic at hand.

[TerraPrime]

Can one have a personal opinion on the matter and express it (without the intention of forcing others to conform to this opinion), even if it goes against the prevailing opinion on the board?

Can one? Yes, one can (two cans?).

Should one expect no push-back from such retrograde opinion? No, one should not.

Expressing opinions is a fine. Just know that others will have opinion on your opinion and they are equally welcome to express it all over your opinion. In fact, one might call it a bukkake of opinions on your opinion, if you happen to hold a particularly ill-conceived opinion.

But honestly, your question seems a bit suspect. Imagine if this were not about gay issues, but about, say, whether a man has the right to beat his wife when he's displeased with her. Would you still be so sanguine about this, or would you want the people in this virtual community to speak up on how fucking wrong that opinion is? I would rather I be a member of a community where certain attitudes are soundly condemned, instead of having it approved by default of other people's silence. I suspect, you do, too, and our difference is merely on what is worthy of being challenged and criticized and what should be left alone.

[Lummel]

...Am I totally over thinking this? I don't want my kids to ask what might be seen as rude questions and embarrass my friends.

You are over thinking it.

I'm with Tears of Lys. The children will pick up on your cues. Talking to them in advance sends the message that this is something to be looked out for and ticked off the I-spy list! Say nothing beforehand. If they have questions, answer them then. No need to cross bridges in advance that you might never come to.

Children do ask questions, but there is no need to decide in advance that they will be rude and embarrassing ones. :)

[Free Northman]

Can one? Yes, one can (two cans?).

Should one expect no push-back from such retrograde opinion? No, one should not.

Expressing opinions is a fine. Just know that others will have opinion on your opinion and they are equally welcome to express it all over your opinion. In fact, one might call it a bukkake of opinions on your opinion, if you happen to hold a particularly ill-conceived opinion.

But honestly, your question seems a bit suspect. Imagine if this were not about gay issues, but about, say, whether a man has the right to beat his wife when he's displeased with her. Would you still be so sanguine about this, or would you want the people in this virtual community to speak up on how fucking wrong that opinion is? I would rather I be a member of a community where certain attitudes are soundly condemned, instead of having it approved by default of other people's silence. I suspect, you do, too, and our difference is merely on what is worthy of being challenged and criticized and what should be left alone.

Fair enough. I think the comparison is not entirely accurate however.

In any case, let me cautiously express my opinion then, and get ready for the "bukkake" as you put it.

I think it's a matter of respect.

I like guns, as you may have gathered on other threads. If I go on holiday with some friends, and some of them don't want their kids exposed to guns, well, I will still carry my gun with me if i feel the need, but I won't display it, handle it, load it and unload it in front of the kids. Because I respect the choice of the parents.

In other words, it is the parents right to decide what they want their kids exposed to, be it religion, lifestyle choice, attitudes towards guns etc.

Similarly, I think it is fair to request the people I go on holiday with not to overtly behave in a certain way that I don't want my kids exposed to.

I know many here will disagree with that, in fact, I know many here are crusaders for the cause of giving kids the chance to be exposed to all things so that they can make their own decisions as early as possible, but I don't personally subscribe to that.

I believe parents have the right to bring their kids up in a certain way. And we should respect that, within reason of course.

As for the abusive parent reference you referred to above. I don't agree that not exposing kids to different sexual orientations from early on is some kind of psychological abuse.

So there, that's my opinion. I expressed it. Not with the intention of offending anyone, but for the sake of adding my thoughts to this discussion.

[Luzifer's right hand]

You compare your fetish involving devices which are routinely used to killed and injure people both accidentally and on purpose to loving affection between two consenting people? Lol I say.

[karaddin]

I'm not going to flame you Free Northman, but you are completely missing the point. It's the parents of the children wanting their children exposed to seeing alternative sexualities, but wanting to know how to best go about that when they will be in such a situation. There is no one being asked not to show it, and then going ahead and "flaunting" it as you say.

To directly address you however, it's not remotely analogous. You are not your gun, you being asked not to show your gun is being asked not to show a possession. You asking me to hide that I'm gay is telling me to hide who I am, and if you really want me to do that (this is a hypothetical you that I'm friends with and have been invited away with, not you - Free Northman) then you can fuck off. Not only do I not want to go away with you, I don't want to be friends with you at all. Accept me, or don't waste me time.

[Free Northman]

You compare your fetish which devices which are routinely used to killed and injure people both accidentally and on purpose to loving affection between to consenting people? Lol I say.

I can use any example. I just used one that was pertinent to me. Same thing goes for friends that drink excessively. If I don't want my kids exposed to that, I would expect them to respect that. Same goes for heterosexual couples behaving inappropriately in front of my children.

[TerraPrime]

Similarly, I think it is fair to request the people I go on holiday with not to overtly behave in a certain way that I don't want my kids exposed to.

Herein lies the rub.

If you treat heterosexual and homosexual couples the same way and make identical requests, then it's not an issue of anti-gay bias, but a general aversion to PDAs.

If you would tolerate hand-holding and cuddling for heterosexual couples, but not for gay couples, then it's an issue of anti-gay bias.

If you would invite a couple to a gathering and you would only ask them to refrain from activities that you'd allow others to engage in, then you are a bad host, because you are going to make your guest feel unwelcome. You should, instead, not invite them at all.

If you are, for some reason, forced to be together socially with this gay couple, like perhaps both of your families are invited to a destination wedding and you are trapped at a resort hotel, then it's up to you to shield your kids from these activities instead of asking the couple to refrain.

Common social courtesy stuff, really.

[Free Northman]

Herein lies the rub.

If you treat heterosexual and homosexual couples the same way and make identical requests, then it's not an issue of anti-gay bias, but a general aversion to PDAs.

If you would tolerate hand-holding and cuddling for heterosexual couples, but not for gay couples, then it's an issue of anti-gay bias.

If you would invite a couple to a gathering and you would only ask them to refrain from activities that you'd allow others to engage in, then you are a bad host, because you are going to make your guest feel unwelcome. You should, instead, not invite them at all.

If you are, for some reason, forced to be together socially with this gay couple, like perhaps both of your families are invited to a destination wedding and you are trapped at a resort hotel, then it's up to you to shield your kids from these activities instead of asking the couple to refrain.

Common social courtesy stuff, really.

Totally agree.

[Seli]

I am not a parent. But explaining things to your children beforehand and then asking them to treat it as normal does seem a bit like asking me not to think about a pink elephant. The explanation, the question, they call so much attention to the subject that it is almost bound to backfire.

Warning the other couple that your children might ask questions is probably a better option, since it is likely to effect your state of mind which as others have mentioned will influence your children.

[Foxtrot0245]

Herein lies the rub.

If you treat heterosexual and homosexual couples the same way and make identical requests, then it's not an issue of anti-gay bias, but a general aversion to PDAs.

If you would tolerate hand-holding and cuddling for heterosexual couples, but not for gay couples, then it's an issue of anti-gay bias.

If you would invite a couple to a gathering and you would only ask them to refrain from activities that you'd allow others to engage in, then you are a bad host, because you are going to make your guest feel unwelcome. You should, instead, not invite them at all.

If you are, for some reason, forced to be together socially with this gay couple, like perhaps both of your families are invited to a destination wedding and you are trapped at a resort hotel, then it's up to you to shield your kids from these activities instead of asking the couple to refrain.

Common social courtesy stuff, really.

What? This is exactly what I've been saying since the beginning. I've made it very clear that my opinion was based on what is appropriate public behavior (not sexual orientation) over and over again, but still receive more useless drivel from the same people about a straw man they have been building since page one.

[mormont]

What? This is exactly what I've been saying since the beginning. I've made it very clear that my opinion was based on what is appropriate public behavior (not sexual orientation) over and over again.

A normal couple making out and being all lovey-dovey in front of a kid would be weird. Two guys doing the same in front of your kids would be even weirder.