will LF give sansa some sort of seduction training?

[Annara Snow]

<p>

I suppose the following examples may have been overlooked or forgotten:

• "Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya."
• "It was all her fault, everything bad that had happened. Sansa said so, and Jeyne too."
• "Your butchers boy attacked the prince.
• Im not like Arya, Sansa blurted. She has the traitors blood, not me. Im good,"
• I saw... I was with the Lady Lysa when... A tear rolled down her cheek. Thats good, a tear is good. ... when Marillion... pushed her.

I asked for examples of Sansa blaming innocent people for something bad she has done, not for examples of Sansa arguing with Arya, pleading with her captors, or having to go along with LF's lies about his crime and not risking her life to try to save an asshole who tried to rape her and was going to let her be murdered.

In short, you've got nothing, you're bullshitting and you know it. Stop wasting everyone's time by making them read your troll posts.

[KingOfTheDirewolves]

Sansa fans would definitely not like it if Sansa killed sweetrobin and not only that it would be out of character for her. There is a major difference between character development and a character doing something that doesn't make sense. It would be bad writing.

Sansa should help SR to become the next Artos Arryn or whatever the guys name was

[The Mad Wolf]

But he kisses her throughout AFFC. I don't think he kissed Sansa in the snow to have Lysa killed. They were out in the open and servants could have seen them. Nope it is pretty obvious that it was an impulsive act. And he is also drunk at the end of AFFC. Somehow I think that LIttlefinger isn't the type who gets drunk. He is slipping up. Littlefinger definitely lusts for Sansa. She recalls back in AGOT that he is undressing her with his eyes and Cersei also mentioned that he suggested to marry Sansa. I repeat Littlefinger lusts after Sansa and he wants her :ack:

That's bc she reminds LF of cat

[Queen Sansa Stark]

That's bc she reminds LF of cat

Lol I know that

[My_Name_Is_Reek]

Littlefinger wants Sansa all to himself. He has a thing for Tully women, lord knows why.

[cocoalover1956]

Littlefinger wants Sansa all to himself. He has a thing for Tully women, lord knows why.

Only Cat he's projecting his issues onto Sansa

[SpringKing]

I asked for examples of Sansa blaming innocent people for something bad she has done, not for examples of Sansa arguing with Arya, pleading with her captors, or having to go along with LF's lies about his crime and not risking her life to try to save an asshole who tried to rape her and was going to let her be murdered.

In short, you've got nothing, you're bullshitting and you know it. Stop wasting everyone's time by making them read your troll posts.

No, I said Sansa has a penchant for blaming innocent people and you asked for examples. Now youve decided to rephrase the question and ask for examples of Sansa blaming the innocent for her acts. Not only does Sansa have a pattern of blaming the innocent, it includes shifting blame for murders because she was mesmerized by men - Joff and LF. When Sweet Robin dies from her OD, its a given that Sansa will blame the innocent again. She practically says so - "Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns." LF's 'larger concerns' revolve around his prize pawn - Sansa. The two of them are not going to allow the scandal of SR's death to thwart their schemes. Throwing Colemon under the bus for her cousin's death wont be any harder for Sansa than telling Cersei that Arya is a traitor. LF will not only make sure of that, Sansa will try to convince herself its true. The same way she's convinced 'nothing bad ever would have happened except for Arya'.

[WeddinGuest]

I seriously doubt it, but I am disturbed by how some people here seem to not only think Sansa will be sexually abused by LF, but apparently are looking forward to it, or think the only way a Sansa chapter could be "controversial" is if it involves sexual abuse. Or think that GRRM is such a hack writer that he'll delve into detailed POV descriptions of sexual abuse just for the shock value. Yes GRRM mentions sexual abuse and rape many times but it's not described in detail (to the point some fans, for example, overlook what Arya witnessed at Harrenhal.) Even what happens to Jeyne Poole is addressed in a very subtle manner, no graphic descriptions, just enough for the reader to know what a monster Ramsay is.

As for comparisons to Drogo/Dany, the BIG difference is that Drogo treated her as a wife, not a daughter. Now, considering the Dothraki culture that doesn't mean he treated her as an equal peer, I personally think he didn't treat her that well early in the marriage. But, it was Dany herself who took the initiative to learn more about sex, not just passively taking "lessons", and assert herself as a more equal partner, and Drogo actually loved her for her "fierceness" and came to actually take what she said seriously, to the point of letting her defy centuries of Dothraki tradition when she defended the Lamb Women from rape.

LF, on the other hand, is presenting himself as BOTH father-figure and lover, and demanding inappropriate kisses from her AS a father, not as a suitor. That's what makes his obsession with Sansa so creepy, that he's specifically using his position as an authority figure to coerce her into sexual activity. It's the M.O. of many real life predators who sexually abuse both children and teenagers, they don't approach them as they would a peer, they take jobs such as teacher, sports coach, Boy Scout leader, etc., that already give them power over their victims, and use that power to take advantage of them. Do you really think LF would like it if Sansa asserted herself and wanted a more equal partnership? I don't. That's a big difference between Sansa and Dany's situations, even if their ages are similar.

BTW, as mambru mentioned Lysa, While many fans discussing LF and Sansa think Sansa is "Cat 2.0" to him, I actually think that much of LF's behavior toward Sansa is based on what worked for him earlier with Lysa. Lysa actually seems impressed by LF's "cleverness" when he tells her to kill Jon Arryn and blame the Lannisters for it, and I think LF spent a lot of time bragging about his schemes to Lysa as well, knowing she was too besotted with him to oppose anything (except, perhaps, anything that would jeopardize SR's welfare, it seems LF sold his plans to Lysa as either (1) What we need to do so we can finally be together and (2) What we need to do to keep SR safe.) Now, I don't think LF plans to discard Sansa as he did Lysa, but for all we know, if LF never met Sansa, he'd have kept Lysa around as "Cat 2.0".

[ache]

BTW, as mambru mentioned Lysa, While many fans discussing LF and Sansa think Sansa is "Cat 2.0" to him, I actually think that much of LF's behavior toward Sansa is based on what worked for him earlier with Lysa. Lysa actually seems impressed by LF's "cleverness" when he tells her to kill Jon Arryn and blame the Lannisters for it, and I think LF spent a lot of time bragging about his schemes to Lysa as well, knowing she was too besotted with him to oppose anything (except, perhaps, anything that would jeopardize SR's welfare, it seems LF sold his plans to Lysa as either (1) What we need to do so we can finally be together and (2) What we need to do to keep SR safe.) Now, I don't think LF plans to discard Sansa as he did Lysa, but for all we know, if LF never met Sansa, he'd have kept Lysa around as "Cat 2.0".

Agree with a lot of this. I think his moves on Sansa are also calculated to make her feel more complicit in his misdeeds. I mean, if Sansa didn't swan around being oh so sexy and irresistable, Lf would never have been forced to kill Lysa, right?

Also, regarding him looking at Sansa as if he was undressing her with his eyes - the guy sells people for sex. It's his trade, him undressing Sansa with his eyes is like a horse dealer casting a critical eye over any horse that happens to be standing in front of them.

[Lord Reaver]

Also, regarding him looking at Sansa as if he was undressing her with his eyes - the guy sells people for sex. It's his trade, him undressing Sansa with his eyes is like a horse dealer casting a critical eye over any horse that happens to be standing in front of them.

Keep in mind that Petyr isn't as "hands on" at the actual running of the brothels he owns in the books as he is in the HBO adaptation. They kinda went with the whole Petyr the Pimp thing, there.

Petyr's trade is making money. Any and every which way he can. Just so happens that brothels are really good investments. He definitely doesn't treat Sansa like just another of his whores, there is more there.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Keep in mind that Petyr isn't as "hands on" at the actual running of the brothels he owns in the books as he is in the HBO adaptation. They kinda went with the whole Petyr the Pimp thing, there.

Petyr's trade is making money. Any and every which way he can. Just so happens that brothels are really good investments. He definitely doesn't treat Sansa like just another of his whores, there is more there.

He treats EVERYBODY like they're his whores. He exploit others into his benefit.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Keep in mind that Petyr isn't as "hands on" at the actual running of the brothels he owns in the books as he is in the HBO adaptation. They kinda went with the whole Petyr the Pimp thing, there.

Petyr's trade is making money. Any and every which way he can. Just so happens that brothels are really good investments. He definitely doesn't treat Sansa like just another of his whores, there is more there.

i think he also runs brothels so he can get info from the customers to further himself in the game

[juanml82]

I know many people think she might get into politics one way or another (LF v2, Cersei vs2, or just simply killing them or becomming mastermanipulator or something), but I don't see it. Not because I think she wouldn't be able to do them, but because I don't see her wanting to do any of these manipulations unless they were necessery. I could see her trying to do something if it is a life or death situation, or someone she cares about is in danger, but otherwise she lacks the ambitions yet to be like LF. If Cersei said if you play the game of thrones you live or die, Sansa then decided that she just simply tries not to play it and get as far away from the game as possible, which is actually a rather smart conclusion and I hope she keeps it, she is safer that way. In that sense the one player I could see her becomming similar is more of Olenna who decided that instead of marrying a Targ stay out of the politics of KL, and marry an also powerful and kinda dumb lord, but when she knew that her granddaughter might be in danger she acted on it and pulled a rather merciless move. And that means if Sansa starts to take the Olenna route she could still do controversial things, after all Olenna did frame innocents like Sansa and tyrion, and wanted to use her, so she is definietly not a saint.

I just feel like if Sansa were to be similar to any of the player she met so far, I think Olenna would be the closest strategy wise (stay far away from the snake nest), another reason why I think Sansa could be more similar to her is because Olenna makes her manipulation through the many women she surronds herslef, and Sansa too actually spends a lot of time with other girls company. I also think it is smarter to learn how to influence the women, and how to be a queen bee among them. Why seduce ten men, when you can influence their wifes, lovers who already hold significant power over them. That way she can have influence over way more men (although inderectly), than if she tries to seduce every single one of them. I find this Queen Bee type of ruling (rule the wives who rule their husbands) quite lacking in the series, and since Sansa loves to spend time with other girls I would prefer if she learns this kind of manipulation (that the Tyrells are the closest to), since it is something she might be more naturally good at, and more comfortable. Because while she is pretty and has a good personality I don't really see how would she becmoe a femme fatale like Arianne.

While it's true that Sansa, so far, wants to be left alone (and go to Winterfell so the Boltons can kill her - she still has a lot to learn), the thing about the Queen of Thorns is that she never really mentored Sansa, unlike Septa Mordane, Cersei, Sandor, LF and maybe Ned.

About the OP, why are people talking about sex? If LF things Sansa needs to learn a thing or two to seduce Harry, those things won't be about sex not only because LF wants Sansa for himself but, maybe more importantly, the moment Sansa has sex with Harry before marriage is the moment the marriage proposal falls.

And guys (and galls), I think everyone should get used to the thought that Sansa is likely to have sex in the course of TWOW

[Lord Reaver]

i think he also runs brothels so he can get info from the customers to further himself in the game

My point is, Petyr doesn't run brothels. He owns them. He has other people to run them, his time is more precious than that.

[ache]

Keep in mind that Petyr isn't as "hands on" at the actual running of the brothels he owns in the books as he is in the HBO adaptation. They kinda went with the whole Petyr the Pimp thing, there.

Petyr's trade is making money. Any and every which way he can. Just so happens that brothels are really good investments. He definitely doesn't treat Sansa like just another of his whores, there is more there.

I didn't say he treated her as another one of his whores. I said he's in the business, hands on or not, so casting an appraising eye over Sansa doesn't necessarily mean anything personal. Having said that, as gammaerys above, Lf looks at everyone and everything as a potential for exploitation.

[Newstar]

And guys (and galls), I think everyone should get used to the thought that Sansa is likely to have sex in the course of TWOW

Quite possibly. She's about at that age, at least in the world of ASOIAF in GRRM's mind, where supposedly girls at that age can have unproblematically consensual sex: Tysha (barely a year older than Tyrion, who was 13 when she married him), Dany (13), Arianne (lost her virginity at 14), etc. Pretty sure rape is off the table, thank God, thanks to GRRM's prohibition on POV rapes (...although he's walked right up to that line in the past), but I'd be surprised if she didn't have some sort of consensual sexual encounter before the end of the books. The fact that GRRM was planning a five-year gap solidifies that in my mind, and I don't think scrapping the gap and putting Sansa's age back to 13 will change GRRM's plan for the character, if indeed that plan included sex.

I asked for examples of Sansa blaming innocent people for something bad she has done

Actually, at the risk of sounding pedantic, you didn't specify; you asked for an example of Sansa blaming innocent people, examples which SpringKing provided. And that list does indeed hold up: Sansa blamed Arya (repeatedly) for the Trident incident (when Arya was blameless), she blamed Mycah by claiming that he attacked Joffrey (when Mycah had done no such thing), and she blamed Marillion for Lysa's murder (when Marillion, while being indeed an "asshole who tried to rape Sansa and was going to let her be murdered," was innocent of Lysa's murder). True, most of these instances of blaming took place after the fact when discussing responsibility, as opposed to being aimed at achieving a specific result (as with Marillion), but they do share Sansa blaming people for acts of which they are innocent.

I don't know that I'd go so far as to call it a "penchant," but there are repeated instances of Sansa blaming innocent people, and it's not a bridge too far to wonder, as SpringKing did, whether she might do the same with Colemon, and certainly not trolling as you suggest.

In short, you've got nothing, you're bullshitting and you know it. Stop wasting everyone's time by making them read your troll posts.

Surely it's the greater act of trolling to write inflammatory posts accusing others, in your words, of "bullshitting" and "wasting everyone's time"? :D Just a thought.

[SeanF]

That won't happen.

It would be a great scene if it did, though.

[Le Cygne]

Who what is the Sansa fan's ideas?

Most of the Sansa fans I know don't post anymore, so on these threads there are mostly the virgin queen advocates or the ones who want her with Ned II (boring generic "nice" guy, I think they wandered in from another story) or Tyrion. Which is not what many of us who read the books thinks she wants, and many of us think she wants to have mutually pleasurable sex at this point with someone she chooses, and she will.

That's probably the controversy, that people don't want her to want sex. Time in the books is moving very slowly, she'll likely not be more than 15 by the time the story is over. I think she wants Sandor, and that's what most of the Sansa fans I know think, too. I think those fantasies will become more explicit in the "controversial" chapter, that's my guess. So to answer the question, Sansa fans have different ideas, but that's what the ones I know think.

--> And WeddinGuest (who has repeatedly stated GRRM has it wrong about teen sexuality) doesn't speak for me at all. I don't think anyone is wrong to want Sansa to remain a virgin or settle for a dull guy (and I was being funny about that, because I think Ned II would be boring as hell) or Tyrion (which as I said, I don't see in the books at all). What I think is that's not what Sansa wants.

[WeddinGuest]

Most of the Sansa fans I know don't post anymore, so on these threads there are mostly the virgin queen advocates or the ones who want her with Ned II (boring generic "nice" guy, I think they wandered in from another story) or Tyrion. Which is not what many of us who read the books thinks she wants, and many of us think she wants to have mutually pleasurable sex at this point with someone she chooses, and she will.

That's probably the controversy, that people don't want her to want sex. Time in the books is moving very slowly, she'll likely not be more than 15 by the time the story is over...

This seems to imply that people who disagree with you on what Sansa wants (1) aren't really Sansa fans and/or (2) haven't read the books but "wandered in from another story". I know you have very strong views about this, but snidely insulting everyone who disagrees with you isn't going to make you any more persuasive. (I can't speak for the poster Queen Sansa Stark but considering the rest of your post, the "virgin queen advocate" quip seemed to be questioning her Sansa fan creds specifically. So only people who totally agree with you count as Sansa fans? That's quite...presumptuous of you, really. Almost as presumptuous as when people who don't identify themselves as Sansa fans make generalizations about "all Sansa fans".)

Anyway, I can certainly see Sansa eventually having sex before her story is wrapped up, but to get back to the OP, I just don't think what's going on with LF is a set up for "mutually pleasurable" consensual sex.

[SeanF]

It was said there would be a Sansa chapter that might be considered controversial in some regions of the fandom. Kinslaying would definitely be considered controversial and not just by some fans. So murdering sweetrobin is out of the question.

I think it's clear SR isn't long for this world. Perhaps she might find herself having to look the other way as LF gives him an overdose, rather than actually committing murder herself.