Legend of Korra continued - season finale SPOILERS

[Red Tiger]

Yes, I agree. I felt sorry for her in the series, but at the end of the comic I disliked her completely (on the level of Unikaka).

There was far more ambiguity about her actions in the series.

I always thought that she had killed Azulon herself, instead of just giving Ozai the poison. In fact, based on what we saw in the series, it wasn't far-out there to guess that Ozai didn't really knew the full extent of what she was planning to do. That made her a much greyer and more interesting character. But no, of course the mother of a hero could never do something wicked like that. Of course big bad Ozai was always so despicably evil that he would kill his father on the first chance he got.

Another thing I hated was the way they met. Of course Zuko's mom had to be wed to big bad Ozai against her will. Making Ozai into an even bigger cartboard cut-out villain than he already was. From what we saw in the series, I guessed Zuko's mom once genuinely loved Ozai, and that Ozai hadn't always been the evil man we knew by the time of ATLA. There was real tragedy there, but by making the marriage against her will in the first place and Ozai bad from the start, that was all lost.

Than there was the whole convoluted story behind the face swap. Of course her lover is alive and guess what, she can lead a happy life with him and lose all the memories to those two pesky kids she left behind inj Ozai's care. Those two would bother her new marital bliss anyway, better to forget them. It's especially bad after all the whole 'never forget who you are' stick she told Zuko. Way to be a hypocrite and a coward Zuko's mom! Azula wasn't the only one shaming Avatar Roku's heritage.

And the whole idea of the mother of faces was dumb. Again, they had to invent some new piece of convoluted backstory, to make this story work. It wasn't as bad as LoK book 2, but it came close. It cheapened Ko's impact to. He was a disturbing and mysterious monster in ATLA, but the comic reduced him to a spoiled brat who had a fall-out with his mommy.

GAwd, pleeeeeeaase don't remind me. :ack: :stillsick:

: Her killing Azulon would have fit perfectly with her line about mama bears being dangerously protective of their kids and yes, I too thought she just killed Azulon so her kids wouldn't be harmed. The episode where the Gaang finds a pic of Ozai as a happy baby made me more interested in the whole idea that maybe he wasn't always evil, that it was Azulon being hard on him that made him into who he was ("Iroh has suffered enough, your punishment is just beginning").

[Red Tiger]

That's not it at all.

She knows she can't forget about them, and doesn't want to. But she has to, to save Zuko. She was banished, and her weakness could put Zuko in danger. Hence the memory loss.

She was allowed to live and do what she wanted, as long as she no longer sought contact with her kids. The memory wipe was because she couldn't take the idea and because she didn't want Ozai finding Ikem.

[Veltigar]

I don't understand your point. Of course Ozai knew. Otherwise, she wouldn't need to leave...

How you could believe that Ozai is innocent in the show or didn't know about it is beyond me, frankly.

She had to leave because she assassinated Azulon. Nothing in her earlier conversation with Ozai points to her telling him she was going to kill Azulon or help Ozai kill him. Ozai could have easily interpreted that as her going to do a last ditch effort to persuade Azulon away from his chosen course (at that point, the story could easily have swerved to her offering her own life to placate Azulon). Ozai wasn't aware of just how far she was willing to go to save Zuko at the time, of course, once Azulon's body was found it would have been clear to him, so she had to flee.

And? I don't see what's bad about it.

I was surprised too. But I always found it odd in the show that a woman like her (given what we knew about her) would willingly marry or love Ozai. And I was glad that was addressed in the GN.

It cheapens the whole story arc. If she had loved him in the beginning, her story (and that of their entire family) was a lot more tragic and dramatic. They were once a real family, but Ozai's megalomania destroyed their happiness. That's a lot better than, 'they weren't a real family to begin with, it was all just a stupid prophecy'. Ozai is a lot greyer in this version to and less of a stereotypical unredeemable villain.

That's not it at all.

She knows she can't forget about them, and doesn't want to. But she has to, to save Zuko. She was banished, and her weakness could put Zuko in danger. Hence the memory loss.

The explanation provided by the story is BS. It's unrealistic and it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. No good mother would act that way in those circumstances.

GAwd, pleeeeeeaase don't remind me. :ack: :stillsick:

: Her killing Azulon would have fit perfectly with her line about mama bears being dangerously protective of their kids and yes, I too thought she just killed Azulon so her kids wouldn't be harmed. The episode where the Gaang finds a pic of Ozai as a happy baby made me more interested in the whole idea that maybe he wasn't always evil, that it was Azulon being hard on him that made him into who he was ("Iroh has suffered enough, your punishment is just beginning").

I agree with everything you said in spoilertags. That was a far more humane and realistic take on the story than what they slapped together in the Search. Although, I always saw Ozai's decent into madness as being driven by

Both his rampant megalomania and his raging traditionalism. But Azulon's influence is certainly important to.

[Red Tiger]

I always thought Fire Lord Sozin was one of the best written characters, tragic as all hell.

[red snow]

I'm more in line with Pliskin's take to be honest.

I can't recall the details but the fact Ozai doesn't kill his son - even when he suspects he isn't his own says he's not thoroughly evil. Yet it still explains why he was so harsh on his son and keen to displace him with his genuine daughter.

My take is that Ozai was always a bit evil having been the son of a guy who took over the world and committed genocide. It kind of makes them that way. It's a miracle Iroh turned out the way he did. Then again you can still be a good father even if you have a very skewed view of everyone else's place in it.

[Red Tiger]

That doesn't explain why he's that harsh at all. Nothing can really explain Ozai being that cruel to Zuko.

[fionwe1987]

I find the idea of judging ATLA with a "Game of Thrones" morality to be idiotic. Ozai was a psychopath. That he wasn't an evil baby changes none of that. What made Aang special was that he refused to kill him even though he was undisputably an evil maniac.

The Avatarverse is just never going to have a very grey morality. Even when obvious villains got killed this season, they waited till a life was in direct danger to make the self defense argument crystal clear. Even "heat of battle" isn't okay as a reason to kill here.

So expecting Zuko's mom to do any kind of killing is just absurd. No way they're going there.

[Red Tiger]

So expecting Zuko's mom to do any kind of killing is just absurd. No way they're going there.

They went there the minute Ozai told Zuko 'your mother did treasonous things that night'. Any person who knows a thing about subtext should know what he was referring to. The creators went backtracked like crazy when they wrote The Search.

And this show not going anywhere mature? They do this plenty of times. For instance

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljtww7wlwm1qby3d2.png

Or the Katara/Aang Dance scene

And may I refer you to this?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Radar/Avatarthelastairbender

[Maia]

So expecting Zuko's mom to do any kind of killing is just absurd. No way they're going there.

Well, Iroh was presented as a grey character with the bloody past that he grew to regret and try to atone for. I am not sure why the same couldn't have been true for Zuko's mom? Particularly, since she would have been a "mama bear" desperately defending her child, rather than a bloodthirsty conqueror. And ATLA went out of it's way to demonstrate that all the members of Gaang except for Aang himself were OK with killing Ozai and tried to convince Aang to do so.

Another aspect of "The Search" that I disliked was that it cheapened Ozai's preference for Azula over Zuko. It has always been an interesting wrinkle of his character that he preferred a daughter to a son in a somewhat misogynistic society - i.e. no women among Ozai's councillors or officials of the Fire Nation and no female Fire Lords seen in the gallery.

But of course:

In "The Search" it turns out that he preferred Azula because he had doubts about Zuko's parentage. No way would he have favored a girl over a boy otherwise!

Silly us, thinking that Azula's genius or character that was more aligned with what Ozai wanted to see in his heir had anything to do with it! Blergh.

And yea, the supposedly loving Ursa had purposefully and maliciously endangered little Zuko, in order to check whether her letters got to Ikem. Double blergh.

And then she chose to forget her children, even though a new face would have allowed her to return unrecognized to the palace and maybe try to rescue Zuko or stay close to her kids and help them as far as she could. Triple blergh.

What makes it even worse, is that Ursa was one of the very few women to have any kind of significant role in ATLA. She was a very important influence on Zuko, and it was hinted that she somehow caused Azulon's death and Ozai's acsension. So, retroactively making her into this selfish wet noodle is particularly deplorable, IMHO.

.

[Ballin Bolin]

Katara struggled with waterbending throughout book one. We saw her work for it. On top of that, eventhough she took on a motherly role, she isn't devoid of flaws. She wants revenge on the people who wronged her, she's stubborn, she's a bit patronizing, etc. And even with all that, I'm pretty sure that Katara wasn't most people's favorite member of Team Avatar.

As to lightning bending not requiring much effort, that's part of the whole problem. One of the biggest writing fails in the entire history of the franchise. It doesn't mesh well with Iroh's explanation about lightning bending from ATLA, which was far superior about the art of lightning bending than what we get served in Lok.

And for the record, Mako taking care of his brother fits with the Gary Stu model. Because eventhough Mako lost his parents, he's so responsible and good that he's able to properly provide for his goofball little brother. In other words, yet another proof that Mako is a special little snowflake. These character traits don't exist in a void you know.

Lol no, I agree with Fionwe, Mako is amazing at bending. The fact that he mastered all the firebending techniques (lightning generating and redirecting) at such a young age and was able to bend while Amon was bloodbending him are enough evidence for that. He just doesn't look great, because the writers are seriously underplaying firebending and because of the backlash to the character. Which could have been avoided, if they hadn't made him such a freaking prodigy to begin with.

Doesn't really gain much? Really, that's his own fault. He had a relationship with the two lead female castmembers and he blew it. And Mako just loves being a police officer, so not much going on there in the wake of conflict. The lack of character progression for him is a clear flaw.

Amazing bender: check

Selfmade man: check

Handsome: check

Great at his job: check

Loving brother (to the level of almost being a single parent): check

Luck with ladies: He managed to get both Asami and Korra so check

Responsible to a fault: check

Athletic: check

Popular: check

Cool: check

Please tell me how this is not perfect in nearly every way imaginable.

:agree: Though I'm still hoping for Korasami :P (never going to happen)

Mako's older, and we don't get a good insight into his background at Katara's age. So who says he didn't work for his bending ability too? Katara was 'flawed' morally and what-not because those were different times. Mako only lost his parents to a criminal. His town wasn't raided by a foreign country, the world and his friends weren't threatened by some giant army, he wasn't being hunted 24/7 and afraid to go anywhere for fear of being killed. The main villains he had to face he did with his friends, the villain didn't have a giant army that threatened the world, and most of the deciding battles were up to Korra and not him. Obviously he's not gonna have the same chances to be morally flawed as a little girl who lived in a war-torn world.

I completely agree with the lightning bending thing. I thought it was a really cool concept in the original, and the fact that it required a lot of variables to pull off made it special. LoK really nerfed it, but at least Mako was trained by a dude who's very good at it, as opposed to just randomly knowing it.

I still don't see how Mako taking care of his brother makes him a special snowflake. If he went down the revenge path it'd be way too cliche. All he did was get them into a couple organizations to make some money and kept them on track. Bolin's capable of taking care of himself, Mako's just there to make sure he doesn't go off the rails. There's nothing special about moving on from a death in the family that doesn't involve becoming the Punisher.

When did Mako demonstrate great firebending techniques? All I remember from him is using his Probending-style, some fire-daggers, and fireballs here and there. Zuko was able to incorporate Dao blades into his firebending, Zhao's techniques were powerful, Jeong-Jeong was able to create walls of fire, etc. I've never seen anything amazing from Mako's firebending. The LB stuff we've already touched upon; plus, younger people than he have mastered one or the other - and that was back before it was a common technique. The only thing that stands out from all this is him using LB while Amon was blood-bending him.

Gary-Stu's usually get better and better. Mako stays Mako. His lack of character progression just goes to show that he doesn't have much going for him.

Amazing bender: check - I don't see it. Considering he took part in Triad wars, then moved on to professional fighting, and finally becoming a cop he has to be at least average in combat. Wouldn't place him as amazing. Maybe my 'amazing bender' standards are too high, but aside from a few areas he doesn't really stand out in fighting. Tho, I do agree that firebending is really weak in LoK.

Selfmade man: check - He was recruited into the Triads by someone else, taught a lot of stuff he knows by LBZ and others, got into Probending thru another Probender (who went on to support him and what-not) and then was recruited as a cop. That's not really self-made. Suyin is a self-made person, Mako was just lucky/unlucky at the right/wrong times. Hell, even Bolin's done better.

Handsome: check - Most main/supporting characters in the series are.

Great at his job: check - He's a good detective, but then again he's had criminal experience - so it's not hard to believe he'd know how criminals work.

Loving brother (to the level of almost being a single parent): check - Not uncommon. There's really not much to say about this one, it's nothing amazing.

Luck with ladies: He managed to get both Asami and Korra so check - The writers wanted to focus on teen/young-adult drama a little bit so obviously love-triangles are bound to happen. Plus, his good-looks was already a check a while ago.

Responsible to a fault: check - He has to be, otherwise him taking care of his older brother would be a fail. You don't go from the Triads to Probending to being a cop by being irresponsible. Again, this is a product of chance.

Athletic: check - Uhhh... Who on the Avatar team isn't?

Popular: check - If being a former-gangster turned-famous Probender turned-cop doesn't make you cool, I don't know what does.

Cool: check - See above.

Again, might be I just have a high tolerance level before characters cross the Snowflake-line, but Mako's status, personality, etc are all understandable to me. Maybe it depends on who you compare him with - as in which other series' characters. Compared to most anime super-minor characters, Mako's not even near the Gary-Stu zone. In his own universe, he's not amazing. So no matter which way I compare him, he doesn't stand out as a snowflake to me.

[The Anti-Targ]

I mean sure you could see it that way. But personally I think they did a good job in showing that Mako is a police officer first. Or at least he took it very seriously. And that lightening bending is deadly stuff. I think it makes sense that he didn't want to whip out the death blow until he absolutely had to. Even in that final fight he was trying to get her in a state without water in which she could be apprehended. I also think the look on Mako's face after he resorted to lightening was well done. Personally I thought that they displayed pretty convincingly that Mako didn't intend to kill her. I like the idea that this whole time he was holding back because he didn't want to go lethal.

Is that Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral?

Not sure I agree, or if it's just poor memory, because I'd completely forgotten that Mako even could lightning bend until it was mentioned in this thread as something Mako would have to do to put a stop to octolady. If he was actually skilled and trained in LB then he could use LB more like a tazer than an electric chair, which means neutralising water arms chick without killing her. Set phasers to stun and all that.

[felice]

I don't think it would be that easy to control the current going through Ming-Hua; with a tazer, the target gets the full measured jolt, but zapping into water, the current goes everywhere; you either put in as much as you can to ensure taking down the target, or risk being totally ineffective.

[Lol]

Not sure I agree, or if it's just poor memory, because I'd completely forgotten that Mako even could lightning bend until it was mentioned in this thread as something Mako would have to do to put a stop to octolady. If he was actually skilled and trained in LB then he could use LB more like a tazer than an electric chair, which means neutralising water arms chick without killing her. Set phasers to stun and all that.

How would people in this universe even know what Tasers are, let alone be able to figure out just the right amount of volts to stun someone. Its not exactly as easy as everyone seems to make it seem. One could even assume they are unaware that you could stun someone with electricity

[SpaceChampion]

Tasers don't actually stun. They electrocute.

[fionwe1987]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/08/25/the-legend-of-korra-game-release-date-and-new-mode-plus-what-to-expect-in-book-4

IGN did a ton of interviews, including with the creators, and managed to pull out the fact that Book 4 has a new villain and threat for Korra to face, but it all ties in to book 3. Also, the voice actors at least seem to be well aware of the Korrasama shipping, so the creators likely did mean that statement from Asami to be a wink to the shippers.

[Maia]

How would people in this universe even know what Tasers are, let alone be able to figure out just the right amount of volts to stun someone. Its not exactly as easy as everyone seems to make it seem. One could even assume they are unaware that you could stun someone with electricity

You forget the equalist taser-gloves, it seems. Clearly the necessary research into the matter _has_ been done. I kinda hope that when we see the Fire Nation, we'll see new and cool uses of firebending. Like their cops routinely using electricity to stun and also possible medical uses of it.

[Mithras]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/08/25/the-legend-of-korra-game-release-date-and-new-mode-plus-what-to-expect-in-book-4

IGN did a ton of interviews, including with the creators, and managed to pull out the fact that Book 4 has a new villain and threat for Korra to face, but it all ties in to book 3. Also, the voice actors at least seem to be well aware of the Korrasama shipping, so the creators likely did mean that statement from Asami to be a wink to the shippers.

I guess it is the spirit of Guru Laghima.

"New growth cannot exist without first the destruction of the old."

This is not something expected from a typical airbender.

[red snow]

You forget the equalist taser-gloves, it seems. Cearly the necessary research into the matter _has_ been done. I kinda hope that when we see the Fire Nation, we'll see new and cool uses of firebending. Like their cops routinely using electricity to stun and also possible medical uses of it.

That's a good point. It would make sense for most firebenders to stay in their own nation (particularly given their recent history). It should also stand that they are fully utilising their bending skills into their jobs much like the metal banding security forces (although I often think that's because Toph set the police up).

[Metopheles]

I always thought Fire Lord Sozin was one of the best written characters, tragic as all hell.

agree.

The Fire Nation characters are overall a lot more interesting than the ones from other nations.

Sozin, Roku, Iroh, Zhao, Yon Rha, Ursa, Azula, Mei, Ty Lee, Piandao...

Not saying others aren't interesting, but Fire Nation has the a large amount of amazing characters. And it was good, as it showed the enemy isn't just plain evil for the fun of it.

[Metopheles]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/08/25/the-legend-of-korra-game-release-date-and-new-mode-plus-what-to-expect-in-book-4

IGN did a ton of interviews, including with the creators, and managed to pull out the fact that Book 4 has a new villain and threat for Korra to face, but it all ties in to book 3. Also, the voice actors at least seem to be well aware of the Korrasama shipping, so the creators likely did mean that statement from Asami to be a wink to the shippers.

what wink?

I think if they make a lesbian couple in the script for an american kid's show, it would not make it onto any screen...