Knight Of Winter

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About Knight Of Winter

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  1. Hiya, since we seem to have a lot of banter here with this topic I decided to follow you... feel free to e-mail me or whatever - I am [email protected] lol

  2. It's not about personalities, it's about the way their mind works. I admit I struggled with Lysa's type, mainly because she's obviously unstable, and whatever type she has - she's unhealthy version of that type. Still, I think (unhealthy) INFP suits her the best. Both Dany and Lysa, for example, have inner world of values and emotions which they feel strongly about and which they strive to live by. And while in Dany's case it manifests like e.g. deep conviction that slavery is wrong and desire to make the world without it, in (unhelathy) Lysa's case is shows like selfish and immature: It's all about meeeeeee and my son. Borth Dany and Lysa like to explore various ideas and try different options in their mind before settling on a conclusion: which leads Dany to be indecisive, but Lysa to be paranoid (whatever idea she comes by, she twists it into some kind of conspiracy against her) Good points. ISFJ are perhaps on average the most social of all introverted types. And there can naturally be massive differences between personalities of two people of the same type. MBTI defines ways that human mind works, not the personalities. Sometimes some input (types) can lead to hugely different personalities. I don't find much in common for Lysa and Dany or for Ygritte and Daario, for example. Bottomless can of worms, I assure you. MBTI is relatively popular on the internet, so you'll find tons of various stuff, from serious articles, typings for character of various famous TV shows, movies, books etc to completely random funny "what would Type X do" jokes. Like this one. For the rest: I found it awesome to see someone so engaged in mbti, immediately debating logic behind it and conpemptaing various options . As for the e/i, at this point I can only recommend studying cognitive functions (every MBTI book worth something should have good amount of information), which basically explain how extroversion means taking whatever stimuli from the outer world: ideas, people, world itself etc. So when you say " Now I'm wondering if E in general are more likely to be hedonistic in terms of food, wine, riches, sex etc than the introverts.. " , you're basically describing extrovert sensing (Se) cognitive function, which is all about living in the moment, taking opportunities as they come, enjoying stimuli - be it sports, food, sex etc. You can clearly see extroverts with dominant Se: these are people like Robert, Daario, Asha, Arianne etc. Other types of extroverts take other types of stimuli: for example people like Sansa, Cersei or Margaery are clearly people-orientated (extroverted feeling function - Fe): very apt at sensing other people's emotions, connecting with them, comforting them (or the other side of the coin - manipulating them), having the aura of natural charm around people etc. 1) yeah, I took test several times as well and noticed 5-10% different results for each letter each time. It wasn't enough to flip me into different type, but this unreliability motivated me to study cognitive functions, which do provide more secure definitions of each type 2) There are reasons why some cognitive functions don't go with each other. Now, I'll be first one to admit that this system is not perfect, that I've seen characters (real and fictional) which e.g. seem to be using both Si and Ni (although it shouldn't be the case, as Si is always paired with Ne, and Ni with Se) - but these are anomalies which do not take much from the overall system. 3) Why should there be? MBTI is about cognitive preferences, not about personality or behaviour. In your professional life you can alter your behavior, even assume completely different persona - but your mind will work in the same way.
  3. First and foremost, welcome to the forum. And greetings from fellow INF on a perceiving end of the spectrum Yeah, I've seen several typing of Dany and the only thing they have in common is that they all type her as xNFx - everything else is a matter of debate. Main reason that I decided in favour of INFP is complete lack of INFJ's dominant function: Ni. Dany has no clear goal nor idea what does she want to do with herself or how to approach given situation. Yes, she wants to reconquer Westeros and reclaim her family's ancestral seat. But at the same time she wants to lead a crusade against slavery. And rule the Meereen. But how - for she can't for the life of everything holy decide whether she wants to a a just peaceful ruler of a overt conqueror. She decides to give peace a chance, but still contemplates strong temptation of violent warlike solutions. This constant wandering, changing her objectives and moving the goalposts strongly suggest in favour of indecisive Ne, not goal-orientated Ni (like Tywin, Doran or Varys, for example - I can't imagine any one of them handling the situation the way Dany does). Typing her feeling function - i.e. deciding whether she's Fi or Fe is a bit harder, I admit. I opted for Fi, for her values often seem pretty subjective and dependent of her experiences. For example, she feels very strongly about slavery and slavery in particular because she herself was treated as kind of a slave, sold off to Drogo to cement an alliance. Another example would be her last chapter in ADWD, where she ultimately abandons peace and deduces that dragons plant no seeds. Her abandonment of her policy sounds quite a lot personal - she tried her best but Meereenese dissed her ideas, so now they'll have to pay - that smells of rejected Fi. Generally the way she treated the Masters in all Ghiscari cities strongly suggests Fi: there was no desire for harmony or impulse to smooth things over so everyone can be happy (Fe), what we saw instead was you're all vicious bastards and you'll get no mercy from me Fi judgement. Btw, doing nice things for others is not Fe-exclusive, Fi is just as capable of it, albeit for a different motivations
  4. 1) A pity , I was just about to write a detailed response to your first post, for I liked the discussion 2) By all means - do But...how can Arya be ISTJ - rational, dutiful, notoriously reliable, occasionally seeming even sombre type of personality? Just look at Ned, Stannis, Barristan, Areo Hotah, probably Victarion - how much does Arya have in common with all these undoubtedly ISTJ characters? Not much. For one, she puts way to much emphasis on values and ethics and way to little on logic to be a T. Also, I've met a number of ENFPs or suspected ENFPs (maybe my favorite type ), and Sansa is unlike any of them. ENFPs are generally very excitable, almost childishly curious and always eager to discuss and try various crazy or less crazy ideas - in fact, they sometimes have troubles deciding on a single course of action (because new options constantly come to mind) or reconciling their ideas with reality. In general, it's a very idea-oriantated type, while Sansa is not. Her main forte are are not ideas, but people around her and the way she reads their emotions, effortlessly connects with them and thrives in their company. Ah, ENTP - another great type. Did you know that whenever I see a poll regarding that subject, ENTPs are always voted the funniest type. Small wonder half of stand-up comedians are suspected of being ENTP Difference between introversion and extroversion mbti-wise is dependent on where the person in question focuses their energy - inwardly or outwardly. In Arya's example, the reason why she's typed as introvert is that she has extremely rich inner world of values which she constantly references, compares to what she perceives and judges everything according to it. It's her first, most natural and best reaction to everything: when she hears of singers whom Sansa likes, she immediately thinks: stupid singers ; when she hears that Jon can't spar with Joffrey because of his bastardy, she deems it: it's wrong right away. She sees no problem attacking crown prince to protect Mycah because Joffrey (or his position) hold no value to her personal system. In fact, when questioned about Mycah by Joffrey, she immediately states importance Mycah has to her: "he's my friend". She e.g. put Sandor's name on her hit list because she compromised her happiness and killed her friend, and later started having doubts once she got to know him better and re-evaluated her opinion of him. In general, introverts sort all the information from the outer world thorough their "filters", while extroverts take it much more directly and openly. And naturally, i/e are not absolute dichotomies. "Pure extrovert" without any introvert qualities would have no sense of self save the one world gives him and would be hyper-sensitive to stimuli from outside; while "pure introvert" would be shut off from the world and self-sufficient to a very unhealthy degree. Every type has is extroverted and introverted qualities - it's just a matter of degree which dominates and how much. Yeah, possibly. INFP would be my second choice for Jon after ISFP. Good points. What's your opinion of Robb's type? ESFJ then? Something else?
  5. In real life - maybe so. But in ASOIAF we're given so well-developed personalities for e.g. Arya or Sansa that I feel comfortable enough typing them. Well, I'm always up for discussion . Let's see: Sansa - an obvious extrovert, constantly seeking stimuli (in her case - people) from the outer world. In Wintrefell, she was comfortable being the head of her social circle. She likes social gatherings like tourneys or feasts. Very adept at meeting new people and connecting with them. I don't think her time at KL would count here - she was friendless and scared shitless for the most of her time there. But at soon as she escaped and found some measure of security - she returned back to her natural social self (especially obvious in ADWD or TWOW spoiler chapter) Catelyn - on the other hand, is IMO more directed to the inner world. She doesn't necessarily like big social gatherings, she's quite comfortavle being alone, she likes her small inner world (Ned&kids) by far the best - overall, doesn't much sound like an extrovert. Arya - basically, has way,way too strong Fi to be an extrovert. She constantly spends big amount of time in her head, analyzing values and ethics or the world and comparing it the her values. In short, her Fi is her first and best reaction to everything - it's her dominant function, not Se. Robb - generally doesn't seem like he's much concerned with ideas, concepts, symbolism and other stuff associated with N - he's way too practical for that. Also, for an ENxP, as you type him, I see very little Ne in him. Jon Snow - again, too strong Fi for him to be a T. Jon is not overly concerned about logic or efficiency, but he's absolutely obsessed about values and doing what is right. Just look at his reaction to e.g. Craster (although he knows Craster is necessary ally without NW can hardly do without, he doesn't care - he's still emotionally disgusted by him), wildlings (where Bowen logically points out that wildlings are potentially treacherous and just bring more hungry mounts to feed, Jon dismisses him - wildlings are people and he WILL help them, logistics be damned), helping Stannis (logically, he knows NW should take no part. Emotionally, he hates Boltons and thus decides to not only assist Stannis, but keep helping him more and more), arranging the marriage between Sigorn and Alys, etc. Jeor - I don't see an argument for him being INTP at all. Can you elaborate? Ygritte - dunno, she seems more like some kind of enjoy the present, live in the moment Se-dominant for me. I could maybe see her as ESFP, but hardly ESFJ. Cersei and Sansa are ESFJs, and their mind works differently than Ygritte's, IMO. Mance - seems more like a planner, organizer, a man with a vision - not an improvising spontaneous P. Hence I dubbed him as Fe+Ni (ergo ENFJ)
  6. Myers-Briggs test Myers-Briggs is a psychological test aiming to categorize people in 16 categories based on the way their mind works. It has become a favouritepastime of mine, and seeing how it's pretty popular all around the internet (just type mbti+name of popular show in google search and see for yourself ), I've decided to make one for all of ASOIAF major characters Basic principle is this: each out of 16 types consists of 4 letters, each representing one facet of their personality. First letter is I or E, second S or N, third F or T and the last P or J. Simplified, here's what they represent: I = introversion. Directed towards oneself, towards inner world. E= extroversion. Direction towards outer world. (in colloquial sense, these two may have different meanings, introvert signifying shy/recluse person while extrovert meaning outgoing, social persona. In Myers-Briggs test, these often, but not necessarily correspond to I or E letters. There are shy extroverts and outgoing introverts – for basic difference is which „realm“ do they prefer – inner or outer) S = sensor. Orientation towards firm, realistic, material world. N = intuitive. Orientation towards abstract thinking, concept and ideas. F = feeling. Guided by subjective: emotions, values. What is right and what is wrong? T = thinking. Guided by objective: logic. What is correct and what is incorrect? P = prefers flexibility, open ends, adapts to the situation J = prefers order, structure and planning. Now, these are not absolute dichotomies. Every person, for example, takes stimuli form both realistic (S) and abstract (N) world – it's just a matter of degree. Congitive functions Aka „advanced“ degree of understanding Myers Briggs test. They signify 8 possible ways (Fi, Fe, Ni, Ne, Ti, Te, Si and Se) that mind works and define each of 16 types by having different 4 combinations of these functions. They do indeed provide deeper and better understanding of Myers Briggs, and I dound them quite interesting. For more, I'll let this website speak (in spoiler tag): Characters Starks Ned – classic ISTJ. Catelyn – ISFJ Robb – ESTJ Sansa – ESFJ. Arya – ISFP. I've often seen her mistyped as ISTP, which she can't be Bran, Rickon – haven't got much idea here. Any ideas? Luwin - INTP Lannisters Tywin – INTJ. Jaime – ESFP Cersei – ESFJ, a very bad one. Unhealthy Fe (emotional manipulation) all over the place. Tyrion – classical ENTP Kevan – ISTJ Martells Doran – INTJ. I've had difficulties with this one, but in the end I thought INTJ suits Doran best Arianne – ESFP Oberyn – I'm torn between ENFP and ESFP, though I'm leaning more towards ENFP. Quentyn – I'm at loss here. I'd guess ISFJ Areo Hotah – ISTJ Greyjoys Theon – ESTP Asha – ESTP Aeron – taking into account his previous (pre-drowning) and current personality, I'll guess an Fe-dom. Probably ENFJ. Victarion – not sure about him. When I see someone as quiet, dutiful and non-overly emotional like Victarion, my first guess would be ISTJ, though I'm uncertain in his case Euron – ENTJ, and a crazy one Other great houses Olenna – ESTJ Loras – I guess ISFP Margaery – maybe ENFJ Lysa – INFP. In order – unhealthy Fi (it's all about meeee), unhealthy Ne (paranoid) and unhealthy Si (clinging to the past) Night's Watch Jon Snow – hmmm...my best guess would be ISFP Samwell – INFP Jeor – ESTJ. Alliser – ISTJ. Wildlings Mance – ENFJ Ygritte – ESTP Tormund – ESFP Court in KL King Robert – ESFP Varys – Ni-dom, ergo InxJ. I guess the third letter depends on how to cynically (Te) or idealistically (Fe) one views him. I'll go with latter and say INFJ. Littlefinger – ENTP is what I think, though I've seen lots of poeple arguing for INTJ. Pycelle – some kind of Ti-Fe-Ne-Si combination. My best guess is INTP Barristan – ISTJ Renly – ENFP? Qyburn – INTP Stannis's court Stannis – ISTJ Davos – ISFP Mel - ? Dany's court Dany – INFP. This one was hard, but in the end I think Fi-Ne combination suits her best Jorah – ISTJ Daario – ESTP Hizdarhrhr – ESFJ ? Shavepate – ENTJ Other non-great-houses nobles Brienne – ISFP Roose – INTJ Greatjon – ESTJ Manderly – ENFJ Rodrik the Reader – INTP Historical Aerys – ESFP Rhaegar – INFJ. Great example of unhealthy Ni Lyanna – ENFP Brandon – ESxP Anyhow, I find MBTI types quite interesting to type and discuss. Any comments and discussions are more than welcome
  7. Yeah, after it remained in the same place for centuries, Green Fork will surely suddenly change its course during the course of the series (no pun intended). And meanwhile, House Frey has larger problems to think of - namely that everyone hates them and few bloodthirsty people are hunting them down.
  8. Lol , this. Pycelle, I see the king is tired again. Give him some dreamwine. Everyone knows who is the true power behind the throne. Joffrey has nobody in KL who is personally loyal to him, while Tywin had plenty.
  9. It was stated that Ned took Lyanna's bones to bury them in WF. And how else would be separate bones from he body if not by cooking? And I'm all for discussing various possibilities and having fun while doing so , but the possibilities we're discussing have to have at least some possibility and credibility behind them. Theories should be more like hey, I've had this idea, put some thought into it and found it plasuible enough. Let's discuss it and less like wouldn't it be awesome if this and that happens despite all the evidence pointing out towards the contrary. Cos I think it would be cool. Case in point, with regards to all Lyanna=alive theories: direct witness, Ned, saw her dying and remembers her death multiple times in his thoughts that same witness buried her bones in WF even if Lyanna is alive by some hypothetical chance, why would she remain hidden for 15 years? Why would she leave her family in pain thinking she's dead? Why would she allow for her likely son (Jon) to grow up without her? Etc. If there's any Lyanna=alive theory that has plausible answers to these 3, I'm all ears. Until then, they all remain unfounded speculation directly contrasted by both text and Lyanna's character.
  10. 1) Negative "comment" towards polygamy was huge Faith rebellion which was brewing in Aenys' and broke in Maegor's reign. If you have a national-wide uprising because of polygamy (and incest), I'd put it in negative reaction. Other than that, it's not that polygamy is not shunned in Westeros, it's that it's almost never even mentioned given how the only kings that were practicing it both died 250 years ago. 2) I meant this: Targs brought their own culture when they invaded Westeros, culture alien in many ways to values that Faith preached. Naturally Targ and Faith culture clashed, and polygamy was one of the main cards in that battle (along with e.g. incest or dragons). I find it significant how pre-Faith-uprising 2/3 kings practiced polygamy, and none after. In truth, I consider it a part of the deal between Targs and Faith: ok, we'll keep incest and dragons and get you not to promise any more problems for us; and OTOH we'll give up polygamy, refrain from prosecuting you and solemnly swear to protect you. 3) Ditto 2). And besides, unusual would probably mean more frequently than none in 250 years (after Maegor). 4) You're putting cart before the horse here. Polygamy is not (yet) part of the main story arc, no more than water magic is - in fact, the story is progressing well without it. Now, we're (myself included) assuming that it will enter the story at some point - but for now it's outside of story with no more significance to it than water magic or Tarbecks. And if GRRM chooses so, he can easily wrap up whole R+L storyline without them getting married. 5) not for a generation, I hope 6) and the one creating the kingdom and the other having a part in destroying it. Nice parallel, kudos, but this comparison goes deeper than that. In essence, it's an old love triangle, where A chooses between duty for B or love for C (just without "marrying the C" part). It's so universal and archetipical that there are bound to be multitude of examples on the same theme (Brandon-Barbrey-Catelyn ; Mycel Redfort-Mya; Stone-Bronze Yohn's daughter, Robb-Jeyne-Frey girl...) And even with the parallels you mentioned, Aegon and Rhaegar had their differences - Rhaegar married at least partially for prophecy, Awgon didn't, Rhaegar's kids were supposed to be 3 head, while Aegon and sisters themselves were the heads etc. Can't "Aegon married twice and Rhaegar didn't" be just more difference in the same vein? It can.
  11. I'm not 100% certain, but I'm reasonably sure that not. Cersei distorted the truth in front of Robert, and wanted Arya dead (quote below), but I don't recall her ever speaking about singers making the song about the incident.
  12. Oh, and one more thing. Suppose, by some miraculous chance, that everything went out splendidly - R+L married, had a son, but Aerys didn't burn Rickard and Brandon, so no civil war happened etc. What exactly what Rhaegar's plan wrt Lyanna, Jon, Elia and her kids, but also Starks, Martells, Aerys and others. Come to court and publicly proclaim he took daughter of a LP as second wife? Keep Lyanna and Jon hidden somewhere? Send her back to WF leaving her disgraced? Whatever options I list, one seems worse than the other.
  13. Lyanna being alive theories somehow ignore the fact that Ned specifically tells us Lyanna died (in fact he was a direct witness), cooked her corpse to separate the meat from bones and then took the bones to WF to bury them. If there's a believable theory that explains how was Lyanna ressurected after all of this, I've yet to hear of it.
  14. To expand the world-building and lore of Westeros and Martinverse in general? To give background of Targaryens and show how their culture clashed with Westerosi? To show power struggles between Faith and Targs, shifts in their power and the fact that Targs practiced polygamy when they thought they could get away with it (and stopped when it became non-opportune) etc. The fact that we had Targ cases of polygamy simply means that GRRM can use it again, not that he has to or even that he should. In fact - there are plenty of other weird/cool stuff mentioned in ASOIAF lore that nobody argues we'll ever see again (on the basis of the same logic you're using). Will we ever see Rhyonar and their water magic? Or Summer Islanders playing a big part in the Story? Or reemergence of Houses Greystark, Reyne or Hoare? Or another Long Night that will last a generation? Or a series of smallfolk-benefiting reforms that Egg planned? Or a Trial by Seven (very debatable)? History repeats itself, aye, but rarely so literally. For the record, I do think it's likely that R+L indeed married before their deaths, I just don't agree with the reasoning you provided.