Star Wars VII - The Spoiler Menace

[Relic]

 

Wow, look at these idiots. This makes me want to see it again.

 

Please don;t link tho this sort of shit without a massive warning. I just lost some more of my waning faith in humanity. 

[Davrum]

I originally defended the dynamic of the Rey/Ren lightsaber battle (a battle I enjoy the hell out of) with "But he was weak from being blasted by Chewie's bowcaster", but watching the film for the third time with a particular eye for that it doesn't really hold up. Like, at all.

Kylo Ren is clearly injured, yes, but he still pwns the absolute crap out of Finn. He's practically toying with Finn until Finn gets in that one good (lucky?) swipe, at which point he puts Finn out. Then after Rey's awesomely dramatic claim of Luke's lightsaber Kylo Ren pwns the crap out of her too. She doesn't even hit him with a lucky swipe, just gets tooled over and over until they reach that drop and engage in their pushing match. At this point Kylo Ren's injury hasn't been shown to affect his fighting ability in the slightest. He has certainly emphasized that he is bleeding by spilling some of it on the snow, but rather than slowly being drained of energy as happens when a character is fighting with a wound like that Kylo Ren has consistently been a nigh unstoppable force.

Then Rey enters the Force cheat code and the fight makes a hard reverse. It's not a turning of the tide (those happen gradually), it's an instant 180. The fact there's an injury (or two, given that Finn did get that swipe in) is shown (the blood) but the effect of that injury (a gradual slowing down) is not shown. It's entirely possible the intent of the filmmakers was to present a fight in which an injury or injuries were significant, but if that's the case then, by the language of cinema, they've failed in that one aspect because the actual presented fight doesn't support that intent.

What does support it somewhat is the "Ren had orders not to kill her" thing. Also the "She got in his head" thing, since the Force has always been about confidence to some extent (Luke and Yoda with the X-wing on Dagobah).

[Jace, Extat]

I originally defended the dynamic of the Rey/Ren lightsaber battle (a battle I enjoy the hell out of) with "But he was weak from being blasted by Chewie's bowcaster", but watching the film for the third time with a particular eye for that it doesn't really hold up. Like, at all.

Kylo Ren is clearly injured, yes, but he still pwns the absolute crap out of Finn. He's practically toying with Finn until Finn gets in that one good (lucky?) swipe, at which point he puts Finn out. Then after Rey's awesomely dramatic claim of Luke's lightsaber Kylo Ren pwns the crap out of her too. She doesn't even hit him with a lucky swipe, just gets tooled over and over until they reach that drop and engage in their pushing match. At this point Kylo Ren's injury hasn't been shown to affect his fighting ability in the slightest. He has certainly emphasized that he is bleeding by spilling some of it on the snow, but rather than slowly being drained of energy as happens when a character is fighting with a wound like that Kylo Ren has consistently been a nigh unstoppable force.

Then Rey enters the Force cheat code and the fight makes a hard reverse. It's not a turning of the tide (those happen gradually), it's an instant 180. The fact there's an injury (or two, given that Finn did get that swipe in) is shown (the blood) but the effect of that injury (a gradual slowing down) is not shown. It's entirely possible the intent of the filmmakers was to present a fight in which an injury or injuries were significant, but if that's the case then, by the language of cinema, they've failed in that one aspect because the actual presented fight doesn't support that intent.

What does support it somewhat is the "Ren had orders not to kill her" thing. Also the "She got in his head" thing, since the Force has always been about confidence to some extent (Luke and Yoda with the X-wing on Dagobah).

This is the best criticism of this fight, and by extension this film, I've seen. Thank your for placing into words what I was incapable of.

 

I'm also drunk, so temper your appreciation until I've been able to soberly proclaim your word as gospel.

[The Monkey]

Finally got to see it a few days ago. It's a damn enjoyable movie. Rey was a great character, look forward to seeing more of her. It was a bit stupid though how the destruction of the Republic's capital planet didn't have more effect on the plot, or generate more reactions from the characters. Speaking of which, why is the Republic and the Resistance treated as two separate institutions? Wouldn't the Resistance be the Republic's army?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kuenjato,

Per this article:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2015/12/30/star-wars-the-force-awakens-crosses-600-million-in-12-days/

 

TFA has made 1.228 billion dollars in world wide ticket sales in 12 days ($600 million in the US alone).  $4,200,000.00 is a fair bit of money but only .34% of the total 12 day take for TFA.  Those genuises at the "do not link" site really have no concept of their own insignificance, do they?

[mormont]

It's barely even worth refuting as a claim, to be honest.

[Relic]

 Those genuises at the "do not link" sight really have no concept of their own insignificance, do they?

I think part of their misplaced anger and disgusting rhetoric is because, in some parts of their suppressed subconscious, they know full well how insignificant they are. I feel no pity for them, these folks are among the worst our species has to offer. 

[polishgenius]

I originally defended the dynamic of the Rey/Ren lightsaber battle (a battle I enjoy the hell out of) with "But he was weak from being blasted by Chewie's bowcaster", but watching the film for the third time with a particular eye for that it doesn't really hold up. Like, at all.

Kylo Ren is clearly injured, yes, but he still pwns the absolute crap out of Finn. He's practically toying with Finn until Finn gets in that one good (lucky?) swipe, at which point he puts Finn out. Then after Rey's awesomely dramatic claim of Luke's lightsaber Kylo Ren pwns the crap out of her too. She doesn't even hit him with a lucky swipe, just gets tooled over and over until they reach that drop and engage in their pushing match. At this point Kylo Ren's injury hasn't been shown to affect his fighting ability in the slightest. He has certainly emphasized that he is bleeding by spilling some of it on the snow, but rather than slowly being drained of energy as happens when a character is fighting with a wound like that Kylo Ren has consistently been a nigh unstoppable force.

Then Rey enters the Force cheat code and the fight makes a hard reverse. It's not a turning of the tide (those happen gradually), it's an instant 180. The fact there's an injury (or two, given that Finn did get that swipe in) is shown (the blood) but the effect of that injury (a gradual slowing down) is not shown. It's entirely possible the intent of the filmmakers was to present a fight in which an injury or injuries were significant, but if that's the case then, by the language of cinema, they've failed in that one aspect because the actual presented fight doesn't support that intent.

What does support it somewhat is the "Ren had orders not to kill her" thing. Also the "She got in his head" thing, since the Force has always been about confidence to some extent (Luke and Yoda with the X-wing on Dagobah).

Yeah, watching it again, this is pretty much exactly what happened- the injury, although it does affect him, makes no difference in either fight until he says 'I can teach you the force' and she goes 'oh yeah, the force', meditates a bit, unsettles him and kicks his arse. It's pretty much exactly the same thing as happens when he's trying to read her mind and she suddenly realises she can read his, but with added swords.
For that reason, I don't think this it's a failure - I think the overall effect throughout the film is that Ren is somewhat skilled in the force in crude, brute-force ways (the sounds when he's using it add to this - there's a certain unrefinement to it) but falls apart if there's a setback, which Rey's raw power provides; he isn't able to let go and trust it, whereas she is.
 

[Relic]

 he isn't able to let go and trust it, whereas she is.
 

yup, exactly. It isn't so much Rey defeating Ren, as it is her calm acceptance/trust of the Force trumping his attempts at controlling it.  

[The Mance]

At this point Kylo Ren's injury hasn't been shown to affect his fighting ability in the slightest.

This is really impossible to determine from the movie as we have never seen an uninjured Ren fight.  For all we know his normal includes all of the fantastical acrobatic leaps and twirls we saw performed in the prequels. 

[ab aeterno]

yup, exactly. It isn't so much Rey defeating Ren, as it is her calm acceptance/trust of the Force trumping his attempts at controlling it.  

Yeah, that's what came across to me. She closes her eyes and trusts in the force to guide her while Ren is still trying to dominate the force to his will. I also think the look on his face is very similar to the one on Darth Maul's face in TPM when Obi-Wan turns the tables on him. I doubt that's entirely coincidental.

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/dec/31/george-lucas-attacks-retro-star-wars-the-force-awakens

George Lucas is being candid about VII. 

To be honest, I can see where he's coming from and it's mostly in line with what most people have said. VII didn't innovate much. I think he just fails to understand why it didn't. 

And I'd be one of the first to defend his ''vision'' for the original 6 Star Wars films. There's a lot of elements in the PT that go really well with the OT, it's just that these ideas where mixed up with other terrible ideas and piss-poor execution. 

 

To his point about introducing new planets and ships., there are more new planets in TFA than there were in Phantom Menace. I think it's also fair to point out that a prequel has more leeway to be different than a sequel does, because a sequel is working with pre-established characters, events, stories and objects. 

I do understand what he's saying, but I also think he is stroking his ego somewhat, and that he's sore that TFA is being better received than his last three Star Wars films.

If he feels so bad about the sale, giving Star Wars to "white slavers," and that the new film lacks integrity, then he shouldn't have agreed to attend the premiers and red carpets.

[TheRevanchist]

Rey defeating Ren isn't even the most stupid thing in the movie. Her performing a Jedi mind trick (in that random trooper) was even worse, because she had absolutely no way of knowing how to do it. Assuming that she had not seen the movies, she wouldn't know how to say the exact words and use the Force to do so. 

The honor of the most stupid thing in the movie is that it makes the original trilogy pointless. Emperor and Vader died? Sure, here it is the Emperor MK2 and Vader MK2. The Rebels destroyed the Death Star? Well, there is now an even bigger and more powerful death star. Luke returned the Jedi Order with him after the Order 66 destroyed it? Tough luck, a similar thing has happened in the new Jedi Order and it is destroyed too. The Empire was destroyed in the end of the old trilogy? Nope, here it is and it is stronger than ever, it can destroy Republic's capital from half way through galaxy.

A bit like the third Alien movie, whom while not terrible, it made completely pointless the second movie.

And that in addition to being a full plagiarism.

I think that I am starting to dislike this movie more than the first two prequels.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Accusations of plagiarism sound a bit weird to me. How can Star Wars plagiarise Star Wars?

Retread? Sure. Plagiarism? Eh?

[ab aeterno]

Rey defeating Ren isn't even the most stupid thing in the movie. Her performing a Jedi mind trick (in that random trooper) was bad, because she had absolutely no way of knowing how to do it. Assuming that she had not seen the movies, she wouldn't know how to say the exact words and use the Force to do so. 

The honor of the most stupid thing in the movie is that it makes the original trilogy pointless. Emperor and Vader died? Sure, here it is the Emperor MK2 and Vader MK2. The Rebels destroyed the Death Star? Well, there is now an even bigger and more powerful death star. Luke returned the Jedi Order with him after the Order 66 destroyed it? Tough luck, a similar thing has happened in the new Jedi Order and it is destroyed too. The Empire was destroyed in the end of the old trilogy? Nope, here it is and it is stronger than ever, it can destroy Republic's capital from half way through galaxy.

Was the EU any different though? To some extent it's inevitable. If the new threat isn't as least as bad as the previous one, then any sequel will necessarily lack weight.

It may be that Snoke and Ren make the Emperor and Vader less meaningful, but they're still far more meaningful than when it turned out that the Emperor was just trying to protect the galaxy from the Yuuzhan Vong.  

[TheRevanchist]

Was the EU any different though? To some extent it's inevitable. If the new threat isn't as least as bad as the previous one, then any sequel will necessarily lack weight.

It may be that Snoke and Ren make the Emperor and Vader less meaningful, but they're still far more meaningful than when it turned out that the Emperor was just trying to protect the galaxy from the Yuuzhan Vong.  

Yeah, you're right. I must say that I wasn't the biggest fan of EU events after RotJ (bar Thrawn trilogy, obviously). For example, Palps coming back made Vader's sacrifice/redemption, a bit pointless.

YV invasion was like a twist, but a shit one.

The problem of the movie is that it looked like nothing has changed since A New Hope. The Empire/First Order still look more powerful and can easily destroy Republic's Capital. There is no new Jedi Order (there was one in EU, for example), the Resistance seems completely the same as the Rebellion, etc.

[ab aeterno]

Yeah, you're right. I must say that I wasn't the biggest fan of EU events after RotJ (bar Thrawn trilogy, obviously). For example, Palps coming back made Vader's sacrifice/redemption, a bit pointless.
YV invasion was like a twist, but a shit one.

The problem of the movie is that it looked like nothing has changed since A New Hope. The Empire/First Order still look more powerful and can easily destroy Republic's Capital. There is no new Jedi Order (there was one in EU, for example), the Resistance seems completely the same as the Rebellion, etc.

It's because there's no Kyle Katarn to fuck up the Remnant's plans.

[TheRevanchist]

Leaving aside the strongly debated Ren/Rey swordfight, I do actually kind of agree that her performing a Jedi mind trick seemed pretty weird. 

However, it's not like we know ''how it's done''. It's not like we know that it requires in depth training. In fact, the only thing we do know from watching it is that it requires you to be calm and confident, and connected to the Force. It's not like she's repeating magical incantations in her head. It took Luke 5 years until we saw him do it (at the start of RotJ), but it's clearly not his first time then (not to mention that Luke was a frustratingly hard Jedi to teach). 

We don't know much about Snoke yet, although yeah the set-up has been very similar to Sidious' set up. Kylo Ren has almost nothing in common with Darth Vader as a character other than that he left the Light side for the Dark. 

Also, do we know that it was the Republic's capital that was destroyed? 

Otherwise, agree with the cyclical repetitive nature of the story. It's been done to death how similar this film is to the OT though, not sure what is to be gained by going over that. 

1) Even if it is easy to perform Jedi mind trick (which according to Rebels and Clone Wars TV shows, isn't easy, and well, theoretically they are as canon as this movie), she wouldn't know that you can do that thing. She didn't know that the Jedi existed only an hour ago. Even if literally it is as easy as saying those words, how would she know it?

2) Yep, the Republic's capital has been destroyed (confirmed in the book). Fortunately it isn't Corruscant.

[TheRevanchist]

It's because there's no Kyle Katarn to fuck up the Remnant's plans.

Yeah, but leaving the EU aside (cause they chose to do so), it feels like nothing has happened. The Death star was destroyed but wasn't, Emperor died but didn't, Luke brought back the Jedi only for like 5 seconds, and The Empire was destroyed but wasn't destroyed.

So, Luke now had to wait for a new hope (Rey) similarly how Yoda did for Luke. Basically, change Luke for Yoda and change Rey for Luke and we are at the beginning of the Empire Strikes Back. Or just skip everything from the end of a New Hope and we're still at the same position.

[ab aeterno]

Well, technically yeah but with both films we only really see 3 planets in any detail (Coruscant, Naboo and Tattooine, and Jakku, Maz' planet and the New World Order).

But yeah, fully agree to the rest. I'm not even sure what he meant when he said ''white slavers'', I feel like I'm missing something - I realise he laughed that comment off as hyperbole, but still. 

All three of those planets are new though, whereas neither Tatooine or Coruscant were.

"White slavers," as opposed to multi-ethnic slavers?

[ab aeterno]

Yeah, but leaving the EU aside (cause they chose to do so), it feels like nothing has happened. The Death star was destroyed but wasn't, Emperor died but didn't, Luke brought back the Jedi only for like 5 seconds, and The Empire was destroyed but wasn't destroyed.
So, Luke now had to wait for a new hope (Rey) similarly how Yoda did for Luke. Basically, change Luke for Yoda and change Rey for Luke and we are at the beginning of the Empire Strikes Back. Or just skip everything from the end of a New Hope and we're still at the same position.

Yeah, but it doesn't bother me too much. Pretty much all SW media always had similar plots, and the cycle of the rise and fall of the Jedi and Sith is (outside of the Skywalkers) is more or less what Star Wars is to me. I'd have liked to have seen more of a New Republic (sans Resistance,) and more New Jedi Order, but I can live with this new world.