GRRM updates WoW at "NotaBlog"

[Howdyphillip]

16 years ago...

1. I bought my first cell phone

2. The Supreme Court allowed a candidate to steal the US Presidency 

3. The first episode of a new TV series called SURVIVOR aired on CBS

4. Michael Phelps finish 5th in the 200m butterfly in his first Olympic games in Sydney, Australia

5. A new illness in Europe called Mad Cow Disease arose.

6. A former first Lady was elected as a US Senator 

7. Some dude named Vladimir Putin became the leader in Russia. 

8. Tennessee narrowly missed a game tying touchdown by a foot giving St. Louis the Superbowl.

9. There were two very large buildings in NY called the World Trade Center.

10. I read the first three books of an obscure fantasy series based on the recommendation of a friend at a bookstore called A Song of Ice and Fire.

 

 

 I was going to post about my feelings about The Winds of Winter delay, but after reaching two pages, I probably am just rambling. The bottom line is, I have waited 16 years now. I'll wait some more.

[fionwe1987]

Look, he takes his time. We all knew that. I think the delay is precisely because he wants to avoid going over 7 books. Frankly, I'm all for that. 

Meanwhile, I'm not sure Benioff and Weiss can do justice to GRRM's story any more than it turned out Brandon Sanderson could to Robert Jordan. In that there will certainly be spoilers for events that GRRM will include, but I doubt the execution or the emotional heft of those events will match what the creator of the story could manage. So I'll be reading what GRRM publishes, whenever he publishes it, anyway. 

I just hope fan reactions to some of those plots on TV don't push GRRM into making too many changes to his vision.

[Jo498]

Not surprised. No offense to George, but I always felt he was delusional about the show catching up to him. (Two seasons for ADWD? An interim movie?)

The biggest thing that jumped out to me was the three month turnaround at the publishers. Nice to know they've given up any plan of editing the thing!

Wasn't that similar with ADWD? It certainly read like being badly in need of editing.

For me, the main problem is that GRRM did not have a kind but severe editor already for  FFC. He could have been helped by cutting loads of stuff and maybe to split the plot-lines between two books would not have been necessary.

I completely understand that he is overwhelmed by the material but since the 4th book (in some respects since the 3rd) his strategy seems evasive: Whatever the other flaws, I was most puzzled that book 5 converged or cut hardly any plotlines at all, instead going ever more expansive on sidelines and new characters.

This is to some extent a systemic downside of the viewpoint writing. But when I re-read bits of the first book a few years ago, I was astonished how comparably straight and terse many sections progressed. It has become ever more wordy and meandering, especially in 4 and 5 (therefore I cannot understand at all how one could think that prose/style were improved in later books.)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Has GRRM ever been a fast writer? No, he hasn't.  He cut his teeth writing short stories.  Wonderful short stories.  It sounds his process is almost like writting a huge anthology of POV short stories and then putting them together like a jigsaw puzzle.  That is going to take time, experiments with organization, and modification.  But it is his method.  If he changes it at this point the nature and flavor of the work will change as well.  

We should back off and let the man write at his pace on his time.  There's plenty to read until this book is done to his satisfaction.  Never forget the adiage, "A work of art is never complete... just abandoned."

[The Marquis de Leech]

Has GRRM ever been a fast writer? No, he hasn't.  

Well, he managed four novels in eight years between 1976 and 1984, plus Tuf Voyaging in 1986, and published three hefty novels between 1996 and 2000. He's unquestionably slowed down since then.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

RBPL,

And the man has a life, other work, and other business.  The books have gotten progressively more complex the book and series will be done when they are done.  Kvetching will not change that fact.

[Relic]

Jeez, I kind of want to give the poor guy a hug after reading that.

That's certainly a better response than most i have seen. 

I'm slightly disappointed but not at all surprised. I've known for quite some time that the (terrible) show would end years ahead of the books. It might even end before WoW sees the light of day. I have been reading this series since the hardcover version of Game of Thrones, which i discovered on a fateful day in a Barnes and Noble on 5th avenue and 48th street, at the tender age of 15. Two decades have passed (good lord!) and aSoIaF has accompanied me on my journey into, and through, adulthood. I wrote an article earlier this year in which i listed 5 books that really inspired me to get rid of 99% of my possessions and travel the world for the last two years, and aSiaF is on that list. I'm grateful i have had the pleasure to dive into this immensely rich, inspiring, and complex story, and i am extremely grateful to it's creator. I wish George had slightly different priorities, but I can't fault him for living life on his own terms.  

Love you George, faults and all. 

[sologdin]

by contrast, the standard response: 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

by contrast, the standard response: 

 

Veruca's.  AKA those who demand their new fantasy novel NOW!!!

[Jaxom 1974]

Honestly, I haven't even been paying attention.  I'm ready when George is.  I still love all five books and have worked up an even further appreciation for then after delving into the realm of the audio books. 

I've watched the show,  but find it ultimately an inferior product to the source material.  I get that HBO makes decisions the way they do, and it's expensive to make, but the show could have been better served by slowing down a little and using more of the books. But that's a digression. I kinda look at it like Fullmetal Alchemist in a way. Two separate stories telling the same essential tale. The book vs. the show.  Someday there  will be a ASOIAF adaptation that will be more faithful to the source material from beginning to end.

I'm ready when you are George. I don't mind waiting. 

[polishgenius]

 I've known for quite some time that the (terrible) show would end years ahead of the books.

I didn't even know there was another show going on. Are they ahead of the HBO one?

[Werthead]

IIRC I saw an article in early/mid '15 about one of his editors talking about reading some of the chapters he's submitted*.  Perhaps finished chapters are sent along when he's decided he's done with them?  Anyway, she said she knew what was going to happen with Bran and in general gushed about the chapters. 

Martin's process is to write for one character until he runs out of ideas for them, sometimes four or five chapters in a row. Then he goes and writers another character. And then another. Then he goes back and rewrites and edits the stuff he's written based on later decisions in the other chapters. Then he repeats the process again. So when the book is done, most of the chapters have been written and edited several times over. He also periodically sends batches of completed chapters to his editor to work on them. What's required when the whole thing is done is a tone and continuity edit of the entire book, which is pretty fast.

The problem with this process is the butterfly effect and chaos theory: during the writing of ADWD, at one point he had to go and rewrite every single Jon Snow chapter (including chapters apparently completed and "locked") because of a decision he made in a later chapter. A big problem of the Meereenese Knot, aside from POV choice, was that something he did in a Quentyn chapter impacted on a Barristan chapter which impacted on a Tyrion chapter which impacted on a Victarion chapter ad infinitum. And that kind of thing happens continuously.

It's how he's written the whole series, not to mention it's all on an ancient, 1981-vintage PC with no windows or taskbars to help streamline things. Probably a more efficient writing method could be worked out, but by this stage I think it's clear that GRRM does not want to change the process out of concern of that affecting quality or his mojo.

At one stage after ADWD came out, GRRM said that to get to the finalised 422,000 words in ADWD, he had to write between two and three times that amount of material in drafts, discarded materials, chapters that went nowhere (Tyrion had a whole side-story set in Chroyane with the Shrouded Lord that was chucked out). That's the better part of - and maybe more than - a million words. In six years.

Martin's production rate has never been the problem, to be honest. It's more the structural, rewriting and editing issues that have been the problem, and these are things he has been reluctant to address by creating a much firmer outline. He did have an outline during the writing of AGoT/ACoK/ASoS, even if it was a very loose one, and I do wonder if that helped the writing of those books which was clearly smoother.

Also, Martin's editor has been the same throughout the entire series, from AGoT to TWoW. I'm constantly baffled by people who think the people involved have changed. Editors also have zero power to compel authors to do or change anything: Anne Groell said she asked George to take out half the "Words are wind," statements in ADWD and he said no.

I didn't even know there was another show going on. Are they ahead of the HBO one?

When they were drawing on the books, the show was pretty good. Season 5, which was mostly pulled out of the writers' backsides, was exceptionally weak. Without the Battle of Hardhome and one or two other good scenes (Tyrion in Valyria, a couple of other bits), it would have been a poor season overall. This does not bode well for the show moving into the post-book era.

[polishgenius]

 

When they were drawing on the books, the show was pretty good. Season 5, which was mostly pulled out of the writers' backsides, was exceptionally weak. Without the Battle of Hardhome and one or two other good scenes (Tyrion in Valyria, a couple of other bits), it would have been a poor season overall. This does not bode well for the show moving into the post-book era.

Season 5 was easily the weakest so far but for me the problems came as much out of issues arising from the flaws inherent in Feast and Dance as things the writers made up themselves. Even the more egregious show-only issues (Dorne. Fucking Dorne) were in part attempts to replace book-filler where nothing really happened with filler where at least something did.

[Gormenghast]

Gormenghast,

Upon what do you base that conclusion?

There were random bits everywhere, like:

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/07/george-rr-martin-on-sex-fantasy-and-a-dance-with-dragons/241738/

http://www.vulture.com/2014/06/song-of-ice-and-fire-could-be-8-not-7-books.html

Do you still think you'll be able to wrap everything up in the remaining two books?

I certainly hope so! That's my plan, that's my intent, that's what I'm going to try to do. But at this point I know better than to promise anything and write it out in blood.

I think some fans are hoping we'll end up with eight books.

Well, it's grown in the past—I'm not going to say those fans are wrong. When I started out, it was a trilogy. Back in 1994 when I sold this, it was going to be A Game of Thrones, A Dance with Dragons, The Winds of Winter—three books. But that scheme went out the window before I'd even finished the first book. I think it was Tolkien who said when he was writing The Lord of the Rings, "The tale grew in the telling."

I begin to wonder — though 7 is what we currently have under contract. I remember when he called me, years and years back, to confess that his little trilogy was … well … no longer a trilogy. He predicted four books. I said Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Then he said five books. I said Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Then he went to six. I said … Well, you get it. Finally, we were on the same page. Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Good. Only, as I recently learned while editing THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE (another awesomething you must buy when it comes out!), there are really technically eight kingdoms, all having to do with who has annexed what when Aegon the Conqueror landed in Westeros. So, maybe eight books for Seven Kingdoms would be okay.

None of this matters because you know you can't trust what GRRM says about his plans.

The problem is a different one. It's one thing to take time delivering the book, it's another if when you deliver the book, the plot in it only amounts to 1/3 of what was originally meant to cover.

So from my point of view the delays are acceptable, but the delays PLUS the fact the story is expanding aimlessly isn't.

And you can see even in this thread the common complaints about the plot slowing down the more it progresses. "less stuff happening"

He takes his time? Fine. He takes his time AND takes all sort of detours? Much less fine.

He can ask the fan to stay with him despite the delays, but he can't legitimately ask to not get upset if not only there are long delays, but the story slows down to a trickle so there's "less" in the book even when it finally comes out.

[polishgenius]

Have you read the books, Gormenghast?

[SerHaHa]

Werthead - excellent post, very informative.  I think you've accurately described the very complex system that Martin and his editor have used to jigsaw everything in the books together. 

Hope is the major theme I've taken away from what GRRM wrote a couple days ago.  Most in his position would have stood mute, but I think he needed a blow off valve for the pressure HBO and everyone else has put on him, as well as the pressure he's put on himself.  The overwhelming response is positive from all I've read.  Considering that there was a shot at the book being done on Jan 1, and that "deadline" was "missed", I think it bodes well for how much of the book is actually done.  I think it's possible that after seeing the swell of support that George might get his 2nd wind, and be able to focus on the remaining work.  Even if it doesn't work out that way, it'll happen sooner or later. 

One thing I know for certain, having worked in the entertainment/film industry - the pressure to just "phone it in" and "get something out there" to take advantage of the GoT popularity is immense on George.  To set quality aside for speed is always, always, always something that is pushed by the $ people, and obviously Martin has told them to get bent.

The NotaBlog post has over 1000 comments now.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

 

There were random bits everywhere, like:

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/07/george-rr-martin-on-sex-fantasy-and-a-dance-with-dragons/241738/

http://www.vulture.com/2014/06/song-of-ice-and-fire-could-be-8-not-7-books.html

None of this matters because you know you can't trust what GRRM says about his plans.

The problem is a different one. It's one thing to take time delivering the book, it's another if when you deliver the book, the plot in it only amounts to 1/3 of what was originally meant to cover.

So from my point of view the delays are acceptable, but the delays PLUS the fact the story is expanding aimlessly isn't.

And you can see even in this thread the common complaints about the plot slowing down the more it progresses. "less stuff happening"

He takes his time? Fine. He takes his time AND takes all sort of detours? Much less fine.

He can ask the fan to stay with him despite the delays, but he can't legitimately ask to not get upset if not only there are long delays, but the story slows down to a trickle so there's "less" in the book even when it finally comes out.

Gormenghast,

You have a simple remedy if you don't like where GRRM is going with the series, don't buy the books and stop reading them.

[Darth Richard II]

Gormenghast,

You have a simple remedy if you don't like where GRRM is going with the series, don't buy the books and stop reading them.

If he has read them at all.

[Errant Bard]

 I'm no detective, but I might have sussed out the problem:

 Maybe he could try changing things up and work on the book an hour or two every day?

I personally do not consider it a fault to not work on the 31st of December and the following week-end. Of all the distractions, spending some holiday days away from the job seems one of the most legit ones.

Martin's production rate has never been the problem, to be honest. It's more the structural, rewriting and editing issues that have been the problem, and these are things he has been reluctant to address by creating a much firmer outline. He did have an outline during the writing of AGoT/ACoK/ASoS, even if it was a very loose one, and I do wonder if that helped the writing of those books which was clearly smoother.

His problems with story architecture, pretty much a byproduct of his "gardener" approach, have been obvious ever since ASOS, many have already commented on it for years. There is nothing much to say: the longer the story gets, the harder it is to control without a previous, firm outline, and he clearly has more and more trouble to do so. Between this and the pressure he puts on himself to make his story the best ever to meet expectations, it becomes real bad, I am kind of sorry for him: he has to do a job that he does have the skills and personality to see through satisfactorily. There is no solution to this.

 

If this serves to reduce the number of "epic 40 books fantasy saga" projects in the works, this will not be a waste, anyway.

[Angalin]

Martin's production rate has never been the problem, to be honest. It's more the structural, rewriting and editing issues that have been the problem, and these are things he has been reluctant to address by creating a much firmer outline. He did have an outline during the writing of AGoT/ACoK/ASoS, even if it was a very loose one, and I do wonder if that helped the writing of those books which was clearly smoother.

[Multiquote not cooperating]

Wert, has he ever said why he doesn't want to go back to a more structured outline? If he's done it once, why not do it again? Although I can see that setting up an outline once the manuscript is seriously underway would be hard to implement.