Is the romance between aunt and nephew the incest in Westeros?

[DominusNovus]

7 hours ago, PirateVergo said:

Yes it is incest and Jon x Dany should never happen, worst ship in ASOIAF by a gigantic margin, even the creepy Sandor x Sansa or the baseless Arya x Gendry aren't as bad.

Even though we keep getting the very strong thematic impression that they're going to end up together?

[PirateVergo]

Just now, DominusNovus said:

Even though we keep getting the very strong thematic impression that they're going to end up together?

When was there any thematic impression that they would EVER end up together? Only the show is giving that crappy vibe. 

They've never met each other, Jon has nothing to offer her as he is a bastard sworn the NW and currently dead, even if Robb's will come through and he ends up KITN it would still be pointless as the KITN isn't sworn to the Crown and wouldn't bend the knee.

The romance theory is the absolute worst as Jon has already shown hatred for a kinslayer who watched his own brother burn without helping him which is exactly what Dany is.

Dany is a foolish girl who fall in love with men like Daario Naharis and his creepy blue beard, she'd find Jon boring as hell.

 

[DominusNovus]

1 minute ago, PirateVergo said:

When was there any thematic impression that they would EVER end up together? Only the show is giving that crappy vibe. 

They've never met each other, Jon has nothing to offer her as he is a bastard sworn the NW and currently dead, even if Robb's will come through and he ends up KITN it would still be pointless as the KITN isn't sworn to the Crown and wouldn't bend the knee.

The romance theory is the absolute worst as Jon has already shown hatred for a kinslayer who watched his own brother burn without helping him which is exactly what Dany is.

Dany is a foolish girl who fall in love with men like Daario Naharis and his creepy blue beard, she'd find Jon boring as hell.

 

Can't really reference the show, I realize, but I dont' see it giving any vibes that way more than the book.

[purple-eyes]

people of westeros seem to be very open-minded.

if not parent and child, then everything is fine.

In fact, even parent and child are somehow there.

we did not see caster was killed by this, right?

[lareine]

In addition to the in-universe examples listed above, I know avunculate (aunt to nephew/uncle to niece) marriages were not uncommon among medieval European royalty, one of GRRM's many sources of inspiration. Technically it was forbidden by the church, but if you were wealthy and powerful enough you could get a papal dispensation that allowed it. The Habsburgs were way into it to consolidate their power. Too many generations of successive uncle-niece marriages are why the Spanish Habsburg line came to an end.  Charles II of Spain's jaw was so deformed from inbreeding that he could barely chew or swallow. 

9 hours ago, Knight of Onions said:

A Targaryen. Well, maybe they feel a bit uncomfortable with marrying such a distant relative.

Excellent point  

 

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

It's not necessarily common, but no, I think it generally isn't considered too much incest (as others & @CJ McLannister especially pointed out, varying degrees of incestuous marriage is & was common in both Westeros & the nobility, especially royalty, IRL). Especially when they dragons, the Targs often got some extra leeway for their various incestuous unions, but the uncle-niece ones that were opposed in question wasn't because of incest:

• Daemon & Rhaenyra's was because of how quickly they married after the deaths of their previous spouses, Laena & Laenor Velaryon respectively, & that they hadn't sought the king's (Viserys, elder brother of Daemon & father of Rhaenyra) approval for such, especiall as he had previously expressed opposition to them marrying. They married so quickly (besides mutual lust &/or power-binding) because their first child, Aegon, was born at the end of 120AC when Laena had died in childbirth at the start & Laenor murdered (likely arranged by Daemon) a few weeks/couple of months after - Aegon was presumably conceived before they married & hence to prevent him being born a bastard (ironic considering Rhaenyra's three elder sons "with" Laenor, but Daemon finally wanted his own, having only had two surviving girls, Baela & Rhaena, with Laena), part-wise why they married.
• Visenya's proposed betrothal of Maegor to Aenys' first child, Rhaena, was said to have been because the High Septon (& the Faith) opposed such uncle-niece matches, but I think he was full of shit. The Faith was very powerful back in those days & Aegon I made sure to keep rather sweet with them (outside of his incestuous polygamy with Visenya & Rhaenys). The Faith was trying to increase their power & influence with the new royal dynasty even more as the then HS (hard to say if it was the same one that opposed the Maegor-Rhaena match as 6 died during Aegon I's reign, IIRC) paid for a grand sept on Visenya's Hill, which would give them an independent hold directly into the new capital. And with the match opposition, the HS conveniently put forward his niece, Ceryse Hightower (then 21, certainly not an especially old maiden, though likely a few years older than the norm, especially for such a prestigous House), for Maegor instead. Interestingly, according to the wiki & the A World of Ice & Fire app, Aenys' marriage to cousin Alyssa Velaryon was considered "political" - why would it be when the Velaryons were the Targs' closest allies & blood?! Unless as I think, the HS had put forward Ceryse for Aenys first, but Aegon refused in not wanting to give Oldtown too much control in the new dynasty as they would if Ceryse married his heir. So Aenys was matched with his closest a/v relative, Alyssa, to still keep the bloodlines pure as much as possible, continue to patronise the Velaryons as their closest allies, but also to not make the Oldtown faction too powerful. Thus Aegon agrees to Ceryse for Maegor when the HS puts her forward (again) after grumbling about incest (a match that though could prove troublesome, could help to bind the claims & sides of the family between Aegon's two sister-wives). Going into some tinfoil, I think that the Hightowers are part-wise descended from the GEotD (proto-Valyrians) like the Daynes (all but confirmed imo) & as such sometimes have Valyrian-like features (Battle Isle being GEotD-built as Starfall/Dawn likely has a connection with them, Lynesse having golden hair & Jorah saying Dany looks like her - purple eyes?, & 40-ish Alerie's silver hair perhaps not being due to aging). If Ceryse had Valyrian-like feature/s, it would make extra sense that she would be a suitable "physical" match (help keep the Targ look within the dynasty) for Aenys or Maegor instead of say just another possible Velaryon besides Alyssa, possible Celtigar, mayhaps possible Qoherys, or Valyrian-descended bride from the Free Cities.

On top of that, there are several other avunculate marriages (@lareine I'd forgotten that term, cheers, & good point on the Hapsburgs) from Westeros' history, under multiple religions, that drew no ire as far as we know:

• Almost certainly Princess Baela to her half-uncle, Alyn (not being the grandson of Corlys, but his son). Indeed, as Baela (seems like she was the older twin compared to her sister, Rhaena) was Corlys' rightful trueborn heir by Andal inheritance but Alyn was his legitimised "grand"-son in the male-line, it was a neat tying of their claims & in traditional accordance of Targ-Velaryon closeness (had taken some hits in recent decades & especially during the Dance) & the preference for male rulers in Westeros (Alyn became Lord Velaryon after Corlys' death, who had seemingly arranged the match).
• As @Jon's Queen Consort said, Jocelyn Baratheon to her nephew, Prince Aemon. There's a fair chance that her mother & his grandmother, Alyssa Velaryon, had a hand in the match in uniting the blood of three allied Houses in what would be Princess Rhaenys, Jocelyn & Aemon's only child; given that she was the Regent for Jaehaerys before he came of age (ending up marrying his first Hand, Lord Robar Baratheon, hence Jocelyn & a son in Boremund), that Prince of Dragonstone Aemon had plenty of sisters to marry & indeed his next eldest brother Baelon was married to their eldest sister, Alyssa, where traditionally Aemon would be more like to be matched to her instead.
• As @ShadowCat Rivers & @Turkish Delight pointed out, a theoretical match between Vic & Asha doesn't feel weird for Vic because incest &/or opposition for such by the Drowned God (indeed, a certain godly priest of such didn't bring anything religious about such), it's because he had never considered Asha in that way before & nor had his "axe". Asha would likely feel weird about it too, but I don't it would be for any religious reason, perhaps because incest but likely for lack of previous consideration (like Vic) &/or not wanting to marry/have kids (yet, which we have seen thus far with Asha).
• Cregan Stark seemingly married his granddaughters, Serena & Sansa, by his late heir, Rickon, to two of his other sons, Edric & Jonnel respectively, their half-uncles; to bind their claims. This is with them around the same ages & so likely growing up together & possibly sibling-like bonds. Though the girls may have not appreciated the boys effectively taking over their claims, the North presumably had no problem with it & as far as we know, not even from the Baelor the Befuddled-led Targs & Faith (I think Prince Aemon's duel with Cregan was over Baelor denying to free one of his sisters from the Maidenvault for one of Cregan's sons, as per th Pact of Ice & Fire). Even if Baelor &/or the Faith had a problem with them, it would've been hypocritical (he himself, although unwanted & dissolved, having been married to his sister Daena & the tradition of incestuous marriages of his own House, future Aegon IV & Queen Naerys at that time for one) fanaticism disguising politics for them to "spread" the Faith. Political genius Viserys would soon be king & then Aegon the Unworthy a year after him. Indeed, I believe that the First Men (if not also frequently their vassals) & Andal royal dynasties practiced male-only succession (akin to Salic Law) pre-Conquest, even more female-excluding than the Targs' (admittedly only somewhat) male-preference model. Avunculate marriages would be one way for such dynasties to keep male-only succession & I think there are much & more historical examples exactly for such that we don't know about.

TLDR: Opposition to Daemon-Rhaenyra was because they married straight after their previous spouses deaths without a sufficient mourning period & didn't seek permission from brother & father respectively, Viserys I. Proposed Maegor-Rhaena betrothal was imo falsely called too incestuous by the politically-playing High Septon so his niece, Ceryse Hightower, (who was already overlooked for Aenys imo) would marry Maegor instead. There's several examples of Westerosi avunculate matches, under multiple religions, that had no known opposition - suggesting although perhaps unorthodox/uncommon, such marriages aren't considered too incestuous, & thus are completely legal. In fact, such is used as a tool to bind claims, especially if the woman should legally inherit before the Westerosi society preferred male.

That all being said, I'm not exactly a fan of it or say a Dany-Jon match, but if such were to happen; I think GRRM can easily make it work within the story & the majority of the fandom, & has plenty of historical precedence for such, especially within the Targs & Starks, along with the Faith & FM cultures.

[LordManderlyAsDragonRider]

I can't quite remember, but was Alys Karstark not running away from a forced marriage to her uncle? 

She was clearly very set against the marriage, but I don't remember her, or any of the Night's Watch, being against it because it was an uncle/niece marriage?

[Castellan]

aunt/nephew niece/uncle marriages were not illegal in western history and i don't know if they are now.

by the 18th 19th centuries the english thought it was pretty weird but it still happened sometimes in France.

this is from memory I looked this up a while ago I can't quote sources and may be wrong.

Jon Snow's identity might never be publicly revealed and he might not even learn it himself, so there could be no PR problem at all.

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

The Faith seems to consider uncle/aunt-niece/nephew matches incest. The First Men and the Ironborn may not.

Aside from historical Stark matches of this degree we only have examples among the Targaryens and their extended family for this kind of thing. And the cadet branches were clearly drawn into this royal policy without having much of a say in the matter (not that they would have opposed it if it meant more power).

In that sense Daenerys and Jon Snow would be entering a 'forbidden' Targaryen incest marriage if they married each other at a point in time when Jon's true heritage was both publicly known and widely believed to be true.

[CrypticWeirwood]

On July 1, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Debra Morgan said:

It is interesting for me is the romance between aunt/uncle and nephew/neice considered as incest for people in Westeros (not Targaryens)? Is it  normal for them or not?

No, it is not incest because it is not forbidden by law, which is all that “incest” mean: incest by definition is sexual relations between kin too close for legal marriage. It is incest if it is illegal; if it is not illegal, it is not incest.

However, it does not seem all that common.  We do have a few examples of it in Westeros, but nothing like as many examples as we have of cousin marriage, which also is not incest in Westeros.

So far as we can tell, only first-degree relations are incest, and then only if they are not Targaryens where sibling marriage (but not parents and children) is permitted. 

Because Dany and Jon are not just aunt and nephew but also double first cousins and double second cousins as well, they are technically a wee bit closer than first-degree relations. But they get to use the Targaryen “Get Out of Incest Free” card, so even then it doesn’t count.

Legally. Probably.

I doubt that the High Septon will be pleased, though.

[MostlyMoody]

On 7/1/2016 at 8:24 PM, PirateVergo said:

Yes it is incest and Jon x Dany should never happen, worst ship in ASOIAF by a gigantic margin, even the creepy Sandor x Sansa or the baseless Arya x Gendry aren't as bad.

Are you saying Arya x Jon is a go? HELL YEAH!

[PirateVergo]

14 minutes ago, MostlyMoody said:

Are you saying Arya x Jon is a go? HELL YEAH!

The only character Jon has any chemistry with is Val, every other pairing is fanfiction.

[MostlyMoody]

47 minutes ago, PirateVergo said:

The only character Jon has any chemistry with is Val, every other pairing is fanfiction.

Stop kink-shaming me

[WSmith84]

For the love of God I hope so. I can't stand the idea of Jon x Dany.

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, WSmith84 said:

For the love of God I hope so. I can't stand the idea of Jon x Dany.

Me neither. I love them both but they should be happy that they are family. 

 

Now if Aegon is real than I'm all for Aegon and Daenerys. 

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

The more people say they hate Jon and Daenerys together, the more I sew my Targaryen banners in secret.

In my mind, they'll be Jaehaerys and Alysanne reborn. Can't wait for the gnashing of teeth among Dany haters. Storing up Mason jars for all the tears!

[PirateVergo]

3 hours ago, Liz Stark-Targaryen said:

In my mind, they'll be Jaehaerys and Alysanne reborn.

Jon would rather die than have anything to do with the female equivalent of Ser Axell Florent.

[Wall Flower]

3 hours ago, Liz Stark-Targaryen said:

The more people say they hate Jon and Daenerys together, the more I sew my Targaryen banners in secret.

In my mind, they'll be Jaehaerys and Alysanne reborn. Can't wait for the gnashing of teeth among Dany haters. Storing up Mason jars for all the tears!

Sadly, I'm not sure that Jon and Dany have that kind of longevity ahead of them, given the battle they're facing. I do think they will become allies and that may well lead to romantic complications. People will just have to deal with it.

Some show watchers have suggested Jaehaerys for Jon's secret Targaryen name - Jaehaerys and Danaerys might be fated to get together!

[Nami]

4 hours ago, Liz Stark-Targaryen said:

The more people say they hate Jon and Daenerys together, the more I sew my Targaryen banners in secret.

In my mind, they'll be Jaehaerys and Alysanne reborn. Can't wait for the gnashing of teeth among Dany haters. Storing up Mason jars for all the tears!

She's his Nissa Nissa. He will have to sacrifice her to win the war against the WW.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

5 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

Sadly, I'm not sure that Jon and Dany have that kind of longevity ahead of them, given the battle they're facing. I do think they will become allies and that may well lead to romantic complications. People will just have to deal with it.

Some show watchers have suggested Jaehaerys for Jon's secret Targaryen name - Jaehaerys and Danaerys might be fated to get together!

Yes, same -- I think one or both may fall to save the world (cue Jon and Dany haters' gags!).

But in the meantime, in between time, they can have a little fun.