Emie

Where did the name Baratheon come from?

21 posts in this topic

I can't recall if this was mentioned in the books or other ASOIAF material, but we all know that House Baratheon began when Orys Baratheon married the last Storm princess/"queen" Argella Durrandon. And he was possibly the bastard son of Lord Aerion Targaryen making him half-brother of Aegon the Conquerer, Visenya and Rhaenys. But where did he get the name Baratheon and why? Is it possible that it was his mother's last name? Or maybe a traditional bastard surname from wherever his mother came from? Like how Westeros has Snow, Rivers, etc. for bastard surnames? It would be kind of amusing to think that a great Westerosi house like Baratheon originally comes from a bastard name of some far off country. 

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I always figured Martin came up with the name when he was thinking about Robert personality and traits. Robert Likes bars, and is pissed off all the time.  Bar + rath = baratheon. I know I've answered nothing and you are all stupider for having read this,  but I regret nothing.  

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32 minutes ago, BoltonsBastard said:

I always figured Martin came up with the name when he was thinking about Robert personality and traits. Robert Likes bars, and is pissed off all the time.  Bar + rath = baratheon. I know I've answered nothing and you are all stupider for having read this,  but I regret nothing.  

It's interesting that in the same region we have House Bar Emmon - so maybe Baratheon is Bar Theon - with 'a' for easier pronounciation. In Hebrew 'bar' means 'son', and was often used in names 'X bar Y' 

So founder of House Bar Emmon would be son of man named Emmon and Theon would be Orys' father - or at least people claimed he was son of him (it was a rumour that Aegon's father Lord Aerion Targaryen was his father, so there probably were other candidates) 

 

Edited by Blue Tiger

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Perhaps Baratheon was a Valyrian surname for bastards, but I personally don't think this is very likely, since Orys kept the name when he founded his own Great House. More likely, it was either a surname he had chosen for himself, or the surname he had received at birth (similar to Jacaerys Velaryon and his two younger siblings had "Velaryon" as their surname, despite the rumours of their illegitimacy). Important to remember is that the rumor concerning Orys was only that he was Aegon's halfbrother. His status as a bastard, as far as I know, was not part of the rumor, and if that is the case, the scenario similar to Jacaerys Velaryon is the unlikeliest of the two.

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Baratheon means bastard in old valyria :ph34r:

I would quit with the orys was/wasn't doubt , Martin is not going to tackle this story furder, só of course orys is aerion's bastard...

And i think he wasn't a son of a lord's wife, just a normal girl, because he spent his childhood in DS, if nota he hardly would be aegon's best and ONLY trusted friend

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It would not be difficult for Orys to have been officially a trueborn son of a low-ranking but surnamed man working at Dragonstone. Like Qoherys who was master-at-arms. Master-at-arms is a job not inconsistent with being married. Nor is steward. Or other jobs as officers in a castle garrison.

For example, Jeyne Poole is brought up in Winterfell, and is an associate, and actually the best friend of Sansa Stark. Yet has a surname - Poole, from her official father Vayon Poole. Now add rumours, true or false, of Eddard having been too close to his employee's wife, and you could easily make Jeyne a rumoured bastard and a rumoured sister of Sansa (unless Vayon and his wife had iron-tight and well-known alibi for the relevant time period).

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6 hours ago, BoltonsBastard said:

I always figured Martin came up with the name when he was thinking about Robert personality and traits. Robert Likes bars, and is pissed off all the time.  Bar + rath = baratheon. I know I've answered nothing and you are all stupider for having read this,  but I regret nothing.  

I don't think that's stupid.  That's actually pretty good -- and made me laugh to boot!  (it's true Robert is both pissed all the time, and pissed off!) :)  'Bar' + 'wrath' to which I'd add 'theon' which means godly... the wrathful god of the bar, which is an apt description of this Dionysian figure.

6 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

It's interesting that in the same region we have House Bar Emmon - so maybe Baratheon is Bar Theon - with 'a' for easier pronounciation. In Hebrew 'bar' means 'son', and was often used in names 'X bar Y' 

So founder of House Bar Emmon would be son of man named Emmon and Theon would be Orys' father - or at least people claimed he was son of him (it was a rumour that Aegon's father Lord Aerion Targaryen was his father, so there probably were other candidates) 

That's a good point.  So, taking my etymological translation or 'theon', as above, that means 'son of god'...The Baratheons fancied themselves sons of gods -- which the Targaryens and their dragons were to many people, and themselves.  Indeed, the Baratheons were probably proud of the rumored Targaryen link, even if via bastardy.

ETA:  Alternatively, perhaps the 'god' link referenced is the Storm God connection via the maternal line.

Edited by ravenous reader

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3 hours ago, Jaak said:

It would not be difficult for Orys to have been officially a trueborn son of a low-ranking but surnamed man working at Dragonstone. Like Qoherys who was master-at-arms. Master-at-arms is a job not inconsistent with being married. Nor is steward. Or other jobs as officers in a castle garrison.

For example, Jeyne Poole is brought up in Winterfell, and is an associate, and actually the best friend of Sansa Stark. Yet has a surname - Poole, from her official father Vayon Poole. Now add rumours, true or false, of Eddard having been too close to his employee's wife, and you could easily make Jeyne a rumoured bastard and a rumoured sister of Sansa (unless Vayon and his wife had iron-tight and well-known alibi for the relevant time period).

This. I would assume that Orys's pa and ma were a household knight and his lady in service to Dragonstone. Aren't we told that it was considered a great honor for such a family to be infused with a drop of dragonblood resulting in a dragonseed? 

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If i write that orys is aerion's rumoured bastard with zero intent to add info on that period it's because i want to tell something, of course the maesters would not know if orys was aerion's, so they say it's a rumour, i would bet my house that Martin intended for orys to be a targ bastard, it males sense, what would not is out of the blue we are told orys was a smith's son, for what?

He is aerion's bastard 300% imo

About the sons of gods thing, well it makes sense on the durrandons side, but if true orys would have to call himself baratheon after marrying argela, and be known just as orys his early life, só that his descendents would have an Homage from elenei/durran, unlikely though

Edited by Laughing Storm Reborn

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What about Orys's black hair and eyes? The only treats George gave us about his appearance contradict all valyrian ancestry.

1. He may be just a smallfolk boy that somehow became friends with silent and solemn Aegon during their youth.

2. May be a dornish bisexual boy who became friends and lovers with Aegon, and the story was covered up with the 'half inseparable brothers' story and spread around. 

3. Maybe he had black hair and eyes but his skin was white as an albino's, making him Aerion's natural son... :P 

4. etc

Edited by King Merrett I Frey

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On 1/13/2017 at 9:55 PM, King Merrett I Frey said:

What about Orys's black hair and eyes? The only treats George gave us about his appearance contradict all valyrian ancestry.

Or, they support Jon Snow's Valyrian ancestry.......
*Ba-Dum*

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On 1/12/2017 at 3:41 AM, Blue Tiger said:

It's interesting that in the same region we have House Bar Emmon - so maybe Baratheon is Bar Theon - with 'a' for easier pronounciation. In Hebrew 'bar' means 'son', and was often used in names 'X bar Y' 

So founder of House Bar Emmon would be son of man named Emmon and Theon would be Orys' father - or at least people claimed he was son of him (it was a rumour that Aegon's father Lord Aerion Targaryen was his father, so there probably were other candidates) 

 

I was thinking along similar lines: that "bar" is probably a valyrian tag indicating something along the lines of "of the House of..." or "the son of..." but it could as easily be something like "slayer of..." or "hailing from...".

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14 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I was thinking along similar lines: that "bar" is probably a valyrian tag indicating something along the lines of "of the House of..." or "the son of..." but it could as easily be something like "slayer of..." or "hailing from...".

oh that's interesting.  I wonder if it had something to do with bastardy at some point.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IX

Might be we'll make Meereen after all, Tyrion thought.
But when he clambered up the ladder to the sterncastle and looked off from the stern, his smile faltered. Blue sky and blue sea here, but off west … I have never seen a sky that color. A thick band of clouds ran along the horizon. "A bar sinister," he said to Penny, pointing.
 
"It means some big bastard is creeping up behind us."

This being the passage where Tyrion's ship is chased across the sea by hurricane force.  So given the Baratheon association with Storm's End; I wonder...   So no bastard's bar in the Baratheon sigil but perhaps in the name itself.  Don't know, just spitballing.

 

ETA:  And didn't Emie say just that in the OP. Sorry, I should pay closer attention.  So yes, my vote is for bastardy as well.

Edited by LynnS

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

oh that's interesting.  I wonder if it had something to do with bastardy at some point.

This being the passage where Tyrion's ship is chased across the sea by hurricane force.  So given the Baratheon association with Storm's End; I wonder...   So no bastard's bar in the Baratheon sigil but perhaps in the name itself.  Don't know, just spitballing.

I like it. Puns within puns within puns. Given the "sinister" reputation of bastards that makes a lot sense.

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3 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I like it. Puns within puns within puns. Given the "sinister" reputation of bastards that makes a lot sense.

The bastard son of Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf?  A great bastard?  The timeline stuff always messes with me though.
 

Quote

 

Theon Stark, known as the Hungry Wolf, was a King in the North and head of House Stark.[1]Theon Greyjoy refers to Theon Stark as his namesake.[2]

Appearance and Character

The crypt of Winterfell contains a stone-crowned statue of Theon which depicts him as thin, with long hair and a skinny beard. He earned his nickname, the Hungry Wolf, from the constant state of war the north was in during his reign and his own gaunt appearance.[3][1]

History

King Theon defended the north during the Andal invasion. Aided by House Bolton, Theon defeated the Andal warlord Argos Sevenstar in the Battle of the Weeping Water. The King of Winter then sailed across the narrow sea to the coast of Andalos with Argos's body displayed on the prow of his ship like a figurehead. Theon burned a score of Andal villages, killing hundreds and capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept. The king displayed the spiked heads of his victims along his coastline to deter future invaders.[4]

Theon later conquered the Three Sisters in the Bite and landed an army on the Fingers, possibly part of the War Across the Water. He also defeated rebels from the Rills and aided the Night's Watch in imposing a generational defeat on wildlings beyond the Wall.[4]

Harrag Hoare, King of the Iron Islands, led a fleet of ironborn longships against the western coast of the north, conquering the Stony Shore and burning the wolfswood. Harrag's son, Ravos the Raper, used Bear Island as a base. Theon eventually slew Ravos, however, and expelled the ironmen from his shores, including Bear Island and Cape Kraken.[4]

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Bar_Sinister

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18 hours ago, LynnS said:

The bastard son of Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf?  A great bastard?  The timeline stuff always messes with me though.
 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Bar_Sinister

Seriously!? Peter Dinklage!? Is real life in collusion with GRRM?

-mind blown-

And let's not forget Robert's unfortunate bastard daughter "Barra", which name her equally unfortunate mother thought would please the King...

Edited by hiemal

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37 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Seriously!? Peter Dinklage!? Is real life in collusion with GRRM?

I don't know.  He must of had Peter Dinklage in mind for the part for some time.:rofl:

Edited by LynnS

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While it was only whispered that Orys was Aegon's baseborn half brother, the world book explicitly states that he was a bastard. So it is just a matter of whether it was a Dragonstone "bastard name," a name his mother passed down or applied to him, or a name he chose or received it at some point before or after the conquest. Aegon ruled Dragonstone and eventually most of Westeros, so he would have no problem legitimizing Orys, and giving him a name.

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In Greek, "Baratheon" would mean "Hindrance of the Gods". It makes sense considering the story behind Storm's End.

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