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Iron Fist [SPOILERS - after page 3]


RedEyedGhost

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11 hours ago, RedEyedGhost said:

 

It took me awhile to figure out WTF you meant by this; after thinking about it I'm pretty sure your only exposure to the word "discretion" is from "discretionary fund."  Read more, dude, read more.

Lol, that's so good it should be mine!

Edit: and this is a general tv/movie thing that only stands out here due to nothing else grabbing my attention, but in IF we see yet another version of corporate execs who spend almost no time on business and when they do it involves tough posturing and Ethics 101 discussions.

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23 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Started watching. Partially, I just don't think the lead can carry this. Partially bad writing. But more boring than unwatchable...just not any real tension or investment. But not off the charts incompetent or w/e, so far. A few ugh lines, and some pretty significant plot holes, but if the highs were higher the lows wouldn't be that remarkable IMO. 

I think this is the most fair review I've read... people tend to want to pile on, and make more out of the negative aspects then they're worth.... but you've put it into --I think-- the proper perspective

Personally, while I think that this was the least of the five (DD1, 2 JJ, LC) ... it wasn't such a severe drop off that it deserves the amount of hate it gets.... to me, after Mahershala Ali was killed off, Luke Cage became similarly bland... and Jessica Henwick was fantastic

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25 minutes ago, Martini Sigil said:

and Jessica Henwick was fantastic

I really loved her shaky faced surprised reaction to Davos stabbing Bakuto.  Just quality acting.  At exactly 34:20 in episode, if you missed the hilarity on your first viewing.

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2 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Just saw this rather good article on Comicbookmovie.com about why Iron Fist needs to be White, and why changing his race would diminish the character. I can't say I have had much contact with the character before but he makes a lot of good arguments about how Danny Rands relationship with Luke Cage and Misty Night is important and their races are integral parts of their identities. 

I'm really not a fan of changing an established characters race just for the sake of diversity, or out of fear of offending those who are easily offended. The above arguments are just as strong reasons to justify Marvel / Netflix's choices I feel. 

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/tv/marvel/iron_fist/blackbeltjones-on-iron-fist-the-ivory-issue-is-there-really-a-problem-a149768

OK, so let's look at that article.

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Danny Rand is white and has always been white. I think most critics are ignorant of this.

Not a great start. This is completely untrue: I have not read a single critic of the decision to go with a Caucasian Danny who was not fully aware of, and did not point out, the character's historical whiteness. In fact it's the foundation of the critique.

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First, I think this character proves to be extremely problematic whichever way you go.

Not an original argument nor a good one. I've pointed out, as hundreds of other people have, why a non-white Danny offers richer storytelling possibilities than a white one.

OK, so he moves on to the interracial aspect of Danny's relationships with the other Heroes for Hire, which is a decent argument... if we assume that they will have these same relationships in the Marvel Netflix universe. So far that hasn't proven to be true. As of the end of the Iron Fist series Danny is still in a relationship with Colleen, and in that relationship, given the context, the interracial aspect is actually something that can be seen as problematic. Giving Danny a hot badass Asian girlfriend could easily be seen as doubling down on, not mitigating, the cultural appropriation problem.

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Is he a white savior stereotype? Yes. In some aspects. But in my opinion I think that it has become one of the best handled examples of that stereotype. Over the history of the character, I think he comes out net positive when put into context.

Shame that the writer doesn't actually explain why he thinks this, or give examples of when it was well handled.

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His whiteness is important because he is a character that is supposed to somewhat transcend race.

Ouch.

The suggestion that a privileged white character who adopts Asian culture and has a black best friend and girlfriend is 'transcending race' is really, really not a good argument. So tone-deaf. It's easy to 'transcend race' if you start from a position of racial privilege. It's like saying Danny, being rich, can transcend class barriers.

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Yes, casting Danny as an Asian or Latino would’ve presented other opportunities as well, but Danny IS and has ALWAYS been white. So, adapting his story means you’ve got to work with what’s there, and there’s plenty there as I’ve illustrated above.

Except that

1. You don't actually have to work with what's there. Jeryn Hogarth IS and has ALWAYS been a man, for example.

2. Even if you accept that 'there's plenty there', the series doesn't use any of it. As I've said, you could have written an interesting angle even sticking with a white Danny. But... they didn't.

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Purely hindsight.... but does anyone know if Lewis Tan can act?... it seems like casting a mixed race Asian actor who is an actual martial arts expert would have solved a few PR problems... I think perhaps the casting director was banking on a Game of Thrones actor being universally accepted

http://screenrant.com/iron-fist-lewis-tan-danny-audition-casting/

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One-word review: ponderous.

It was slow, Danny's suppressed trauma was overdone. I think people are overstating Colleen Wing. The character is all over the place. You can't put the face change from her presentation at the beginning to the end down to the Hand reveal because we see a lot of it when Danny's not around. Ward would actually be my favorite character. Pretty consistent shitbag, fall and redemption make internal sense. 

On the casting decision: I'm going to go ahead and say it still would have sucked if they'd cast an Asian actor. I also don't know why people are so into an Asian-American specifically; I'd say K'un Lun is one of the most interesting parts of Danny, and you'd lose that. If that's the direction, I'd rather see someone without any American ties, a Wonder Woman-style exit, maybe due to "the Incident," maybe due to conflict with the Hand, if you're going to give up the primary motivation for an isolationist city's defender to leave said city. Unless the idea is that there would still be a plane crash in northern China.

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My idea on twitter was to make Rand Indian or Pakistani - maybe some wunderkind techie type - who ends up going to Tibet and ultimately gets the Iron Fist. Keep him an outsider, and keep him both a bit confused of worldly ways (because he's been gone so long) along with being confused because, well, he's mildly autistic and a major geek. 

You lose all the White Savior bullshit while keeping all the interesting outsider stuff, you get an ethnicity not commonly portrayed in the US (and certainly not in action roles), and you stay reasonably true to the core of Rand's character while making it a bit more relevant for today.

Also, Iron Fist is basically the plotline for Arrow, now, and that makes it kind of massively difficult to do differently.

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So, Danny's mother (Defenders speculation)

Spoiler

I've seen the suggestion she is going to be Sigourney Weaver's character.  Seems likely the mother is still alive, and now one of the top leaders of the Hand.  But why wouldn't she have returned to NY and taken over Rand corp?  It's not like she'd be trapped in K'un Lun for 15 years, and control of Rand would have helped her rise in the Hand all the more faster -- if she is in fact Weaver's character.

 

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7 hours ago, AverageGuy said:

 I think people are overstating Colleen Wing. The character is all over the place. You can't put the face change from her presentation at the beginning to the end down to the Hand reveal because we see a lot of it when Danny's not around.

I hated that twist and as you point out, it makes no sense. Worse, it undermines the character. Colleen in early episodes seems to be tempted to sell Danny out to Ward, for example, before rejecting the idea. But then we find out that she's happy to sell him out to Bakuto. And the source of her temptation is her financial worries over the dojo - which makes no sense if the dojo is a recruiting tool for the Hand. Terrible writing.

But it is terrible writing: what most people like about Colleen Wing is Jessica Henwick. She does a pretty good job. I'd love to see her play Colleen in a better written series.

7 hours ago, AverageGuy said:

On the casting decision: I'm going to go ahead and say it still would have sucked if they'd cast an Asian actor.

It probably would, but if they'd done that they'd have had to change some of the plot decisions, so maybe not as much.

7 hours ago, AverageGuy said:

I also don't know why people are so into an Asian-American specifically; I'd say K'un Lun is one of the most interesting parts of Danny, and you'd lose that.

Why would you lose that?

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6 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Also, Iron Fist is basically the plotline for Arrow, now, and that makes it kind of massively difficult to do differently.

I would have preferred if it was even closer to Arrow, but without Arrow's campiness. One recurring theme, though maybe not so much with Jessica Jones, is related to the environment. The situation in Hell's Kitchen, and DD's constant struggle to keep it safe, because the city is part of him. The situation in Harlem, where its history and legacies also play a part in the story. Knowing almost nothing about the Iron Fist, other than that he was a billionaire's son in New York, I expected a similar approach where the Iron Fist takes a role in protecting the city, or at least his corner of the city, but instead it was just Rand that the story focused on.

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16 hours ago, mormont said:

OK, so let's look at that article.

Not a great start. This is completely untrue: I have not read a single critic of the decision to go with a Caucasian Danny who was not fully aware of, and did not point out, the character's historical whiteness. In fact it's the foundation of the critique.

 

They are mostly unaware of anything to do with the character, I don't most had even heard of him before. I doubt his race would have ever have even come up as problematic had there not been some of the recent decisions by Marvel in their movies.

 

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Not an original argument nor a good one. I've pointed out, as hundreds of other people have, why a non-white Danny offers richer storytelling possibilities than a white one.

Well thats a matter of opinion. Danny being white, as mentioned in the article opens up a number of interesting storytelling elements, especially in relation to other characters within the upcoming Defenders series. Him being Asian or non white offers a different take on his character and different stories that can be told. Thats not necessarily better and I've yet to read anything that jumps out at me as game changing. A major change to a central characters race, especially when his race is part of his character, creates butterfly effects down the line no matter what you do. 

 

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OK, so he moves on to the interracial aspect of Danny's relationships with the other Heroes for Hire, which is a decent argument... if we assume that they will have these same relationships in the Marvel Netflix universe. So far that hasn't proven to be true. As of the end of the Iron Fist series Danny is still in a relationship with Colleen, and in that relationship, given the context, the interracial aspect is actually something that can be seen as problematic. Giving Danny a hot badass Asian girlfriend could easily be seen as doubling down on, not mitigating, the cultural appropriation problem.

See as Defenders IS happening its safe to assume the most important aspects of those relationships with Luke Cage and Misty Knight will happen. We haven't seen it yet and if they don't end up being important or badly done then there is a problem, but clearly this is what hes referring to. 
IF dating an asian woman is not really that problematic, unless there is only one type of interracial dating that is acceptable these days?

 

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The suggestion that a privileged white character who adopts Asian culture and has a black best friend and girlfriend is 'transcending race' is really, really not a good argument. So tone-deaf. It's easy to 'transcend race' if you start from a position of racial privilege. It's like saying Danny, being rich, can transcend class barriers.

Hes saying that having characters from wildly different background who can be friends, despite their racial differences is an important aspect. I personally think its a great idea to show more relationships like these within the media, and a bad idea to start crying out about them because of perceived injustices of the past. 

Having recently watched Get Out which is held up as a progressive clever take on race relations, and which I feel could in some ways have the exact opposite effect by instead just pitting one race against the other, I worry about the way things are going. Arguments like this only heighten the differences between the races, only cause MORE separation and anger.  If Iron Fist and Luke Cages relationship is a great example of white / black relations then why go out of your way to alter that, to change a character, due to a very vocal minority of bloggers who have very little stake in the game anyway.

 

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1. You don't actually have to work with what's there. Jeryn Hogarth IS and has ALWAYS been a man, for example.

2. Even if you accept that 'there's plenty there', the series doesn't use any of it. As I've said, you could have written an interesting angle even sticking with a white Danny. But... they didn't.

Changing a minor character is not the same as changing the main face of the show. I think everyone understands that. 

I think the poor quality of writing on the show is another topic entirely. The show could have done better with a lot of things.

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26 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

They are mostly unaware of anything to do with the character, I don't most had even heard of him before.

Sorry, I'd like to offer some more polite rebuttal of this point but to be frank this is just bollocks.

To reiterate, every single critic I have read (and I have read many) has been fully aware of the fact that Iron Fist - edit to be specific, Danny Rand - has historically been white. If you can show me one that was ignorant of this fact, do so.

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I doubt his race would have ever have even come up as problematic had there not been some of the recent decisions by Marvel in their movies.

Are you referring to the Ancient One casting?

But again, this is rubbish. This particular criticism has been around for donkey's years.

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Well thats a matter of opinion.

It is, yes. But not all opinions are equally well founded. And as I say, I acknowledge that there are interesting angles you can do with a white Danny that address the white saviour trope. But since the series chose not to do any of those, the point is moot.

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See as Defenders IS happening its safe to assume the most important aspects of those relationships with Luke Cage and Misty Knight will happen.

Why?

Seriously, you're saying that it's 'safe to assume' that because there's a Defenders series happening that a chunk of those eight episodes will be spent not only on setting up a Danny and Luke friendship, but also on first breaking up Danny and Colleen and then setting up a Danny and Misty romance? That's anything but a safe assumption, particularly as the Netflix series do not seem to believe they have to do all character relationships the same as in the comics.

There's very little reason to assume this, in fact. It might happen, but to use that possibility as a retrospective justification for the casting decision is building castles in the air - particularly considering we know that Netflix seriously considered an Asian-American Danny, and presumably were well aware of the existing comics relationships with Luke and Misty at that time. 

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IF dating an asian woman is not really that problematic, unless there is only one type of interracial dating that is acceptable these days?

Context is the thing. Read what I wrote.

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Hes saying that having characters from wildly different background who can be friends, despite their racial differences is an important aspect. I personally think its a great idea to show more relationships like these within the media, and a bad idea to start crying out about them because of perceived injustices of the past.

'Perceived' injustices? Oh my. Put down the spade, there.

Inter-racial friendships are great and I'm happy that we have lots of them in the Netflix series so far. But your writer is not saying that inter-racial friendships are great. He is saying that because Danny is white, he can transcend race.

Go back to my point about Danny 'transcending' class barriers. He pals around with the homeless guy but he also becomes friends with the rich characters, like Hogarth and (eventually) the Meachums, which is great, right? Except that he can only do that because being rich enables him to ignore the barriers. The homeless guy was never going to be pals with Jeri. In a similar way, yes, whiteness can allow you to transcend race, because you have the privilege of not experiencing racism. Minority people have a harder time transcending racial barriers because they do suffer from racism. They face external barriers that make 'transcending race' harder.

So the remark, as written, is spectacularly tone-deaf. If what the writer meant was that interracial friendships are important, they should have said just that.

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If Iron Fist and Luke Cages relationship is a great example of white / black relations then why go out of your way to alter that, to change a character, due to a very vocal minority of bloggers who have very little stake in the game anyway.

Who are you to tell other people what stakes they have in the game?

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Changing a minor character is not the same as changing the main face of the show. I think everyone understands that.

Yes, they do: changing the main character can achieve much more.

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15 minutes ago, mormont said:

Sorry, I'd like to offer some more polite rebuttal of this point but to be frank this is just bollocks.

To reiterate, every single critic I have read (and I have read many) has been fully aware of the fact that Iron Fist has historically been white. If you can show me one that was ignorant of this fact, do so.

 

Thats for being so polite. What I'm saying that Iron Fist is not a famous character outside of comic book circles. Most of the critics writing their articles of outrage have more than likely never heard of the character before the show was announced. If they know anything its because they read it somewhere else. Their outrage is entirely manufactured. 
 

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Are you referring to the Ancient One casting?

But again, this is rubbish. This particular criticism has been around for donkey's years.

Yes, and the Mandarin casting as well. I think the Ancient one casting is a little dubious, but shares a lot of the problems that the Mandarin and Iron Fist have, in that Marvel come across as racist no matter what they do. I actually really liked IM3's version of the Mandarin, and it managed to avoid the pretty offensive racial stereotyping that the comic character might have had. You maybe could say the same thing about the Ancient One. But there is certainly a malicious narrative out there to portray Marvel as racist. The Iron Fist controversy seems to have started a couple of years ago from a viral article written on Nerds of Color, from that point the 'racist' narrative was started and everyone have jumped on it. There doesn't seem to have been much outrage before that point. In fact Iron Fist seems to have been held up as an icon in race relations. 

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Seriously, you're saying that it's 'safe to assume' that because there's a Defenders series happening that a chunk of those eight episodes will be spent not only on setting up a Danny and Luke friendship, but also on first breaking up Danny and Colleen and then setting up a Danny and Misty romance? That's anything but a safe assumption, particularly as the Netflix series do not seem to believe they have to do all character relationships the same as in the comics.

There's very little reason to assume this, in fact. It might happen, but to use that possibility as a retrospective justification for the casting decision is building castles in the air - particularly considering we know that Netflix seriously considered an Asian-American Danny, and presumably were well aware of the existing comics relationships with Luke and Misty at that time. 


I notice you completely ignored any talk of his relationship with Luke Cage. Whether they can do anything with Misty in that time I don't know. But I'm sure they will establish a link between him and Luke. If they don't then thats a shame.

 

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Inter-racial friendships are great and I'm happy that we have lots of them in the Netflix series so far. But your writer is notsaying that inter-racial friendships are great. He is saying that because Danny is white, he can transcend race.

I'll just point these quotes out to you because you havent read the article it seems. 

"His is a series of relationships that is supposed to transcend the racial divide. Which at the time these characters were created, was very important. His whiteness is important because he is a character that is supposed to somewhat transcend race. He was a born a rich, white man with all the privileges that would entail, and then he was nobody in K’un L’un. His privilege meant nothing, only to come back to the world where it does and yet he is still an outcast. He is definitely too white to be Asian, and yet to everyone else he is too Asian to be white."

"

And is his privilege overlooked by his counterparts? Nope.

They don’t let him forget it, while at the same time realizing that he most of all does not understand it. "

 

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1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

What I'm saying that Iron Fist is not a famous character outside of comic book circles. Most of the critics writing their articles of outrage have more than likely never heard of the character before the show was announced. If they know anything its because they read it somewhere else. Their outrage is entirely manufactured.

And your evidence for any of these claims is...?

Even if a critic hadn't heard of the character before, why would this mean their outrage was 'manufactured'? Is it only possible to be genuinely concerned if you're a long-time comics fan, not, for example, a person of Asian descent who feels strongly about representation in the media?

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

But there is certainly a malicious narrative out there to portray Marvel as racist.

This is of a piece with the above, and the 'stakes in the game' remark. You're not discussing the issue, you're dismissing people's opinions because (on the basis of no evidence whatsoever) you've decided they're acting in bad faith and don't deserve consideration.

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I notice you completely ignored any talk of his relationship with Luke Cage.

Um, no.

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a chunk of those eight episodes will be spent not only on setting up a Danny and Luke friendship

I hope they do set that up. But we can't assume they will simply because it exists in the comics.

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I'll just point these quotes out to you because you havent read the article it seems.

I've read it, thanks. The fact that I quote it above should have been a clue. Again, you're just suggesting bad faith for no reason other than to dismiss an opposing argument. That's not an attitude I really see much point in engaging with further.

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Marvel being racist seems too far of an accusation while I think it's fair they are maybe guilty of unconscious bias (which you'd hope big studios would be aware of) and/or being lazy in terms of not thinking outside the box. Danny Rand as an american of Asian descent was a missed opportunity but I don't think the show creators made the choice maliciously - they just went on autopilot. But I suspect a lot of people upset with the casting aren't assuming that Marvel's TV wing is inherently racist.

28 minutes ago, mormont said:

 

Even if a critic hadn't heard of the character before, why would this mean their outrage was 'manufactured'? Is it only possible to be genuinely concerned if you're a long-time comics fan, not, for example, a person of Asian descent who feels strongly about representation in the media?

 

It doesn't diminish other people's strong feelings but I'd be interested in seeing how many (or the proportion) of people upset by the Danny Rand casting are people of Asian descent.

I realise you're using the example to make a point and I'm sure you agree that non-asian people can still be concerned too.

I do find it curious how DC fans think there's an agenda against DC movies and that all the reviewers are in Disney's pockets. While Marvel fans think there's a conspiracy against them when shows/films are disliked.

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Binged it over a few days. While I was able to get some enjoyment out of it, it was certainly an incredibly flawed show and by far the weakest of the Netflix series'. The main problems as I see it - 

  • It was obviously very racially uncomfortable. A show steeped in asian mysticism, yet with only one good asian character and a white protagonist using asian culture to defeat armies of asian bad guys. If Danny had to be white, they could have at least addressed that in the show. JJ and LC both explored issues like rape and racism head on and did it with tact. Where was the discussion on cultural appropriation and white saviours in Iron Fist? Instead we get a white man teaching an asian woman how to practice martial arts in her own dojo and it is played completely straight. In terms of both gender and race it was one of the most patronising scenes I have seen on television in a long time.
  • They were too obsessed with grounding it. The source material is about dragons and magic ninjas. So whose idea was it to make half the season a mildly interesting soap about rich people?
  • Danny is just not a good protagonist. He's certainly a multi-faceted character but unfortunately those facets include such gems as "most infuriatingly naive person in the world." "angry man child." "patronising, pretentious white yoga dude." and "just a completely bland, blank slate." He varies from bland to straight up unlikeable.
  • Obviously having just finished the series today I haven't had the time to scrutinise the plot, but I feel like it doesn't hold up in a lot of places. The complete lack of police that are integral to the other series hurt the show's believability. The Hand didn't use it's leverage at times when it should (for example when Gao was captured, they knew where Claire's mum was, but never used that information). Why were Coleen's students initiated into the darker parts of the Hand before Coleen herself?

It did have some merit. I think the show delivered on complex and morally ambiguous characters. Harold and Ward in particular were very fleshed out, and I will admit that my expectations from the first episode of Ward being a straight up villain whilst Joy would be the obvious defector to Danny's side was flipped on it's head. Harold was I think a highlight of the show. Obviously there was never any doubt that he was not a good guy, but throughout the season there was a real question of how long his goal's would align with Danny's for, and just how sincere he was being at different points. At times he reminded me quite a lot of Sky/Daisy's dad on Agents of SHIELD. There was some potential in the Hand being revealed to have different factions as well, but because we never really get to see how Bakudo's Hand differed in goals to Gao's this ultimately results in a missed opportunity. 

They did a good job at giving the mooks a lot of character. The Russian Twins, the Spider Lady and especially the Drunk Ninja were all a lot of fun. 

I also liked Coleen's yoga pants.

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