Frederic_ed

What future events from the books can we REALLY imply from the show

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So as we know, George told David and Dan how the story will end. We also know they have streamlined the story and chopped off many characters and storylines, but they still will get to the same ending as the books'. So, we can certainly imply some future events from the books by looking at the show. I'm not only talking about little events, like Jon's resurrection or Shireen's burning, but major events. Anyway I think some of the main events are (includes season 7 spoilers):

  • Vary's plan (i.e. Aegon) will eventually fail.
  • Doran's plan will eventually fail (Arianne might marry Aegon in the books, so these two plots could merge, anyway they will both fail).
  • Littlefinger's plan will eventually fail.
  • The Boltons will be eliminated (by Stannis or Jon, it doesn't matter, the point is that they will all die).
  • Stannis will ultimately die (he might defeat the Boltons in the books, though, but in the end he will die).
  • Sansa and the Vale army will eventually go north.
  • All (more likely most) of the Freys will die in some kind of celebration or feast at the Twins (probably killed by Lady Stoneheart, although could be someone else's doing)
  • Jon will eventually become King in the North (in the show it didn't make a lot of sense, but in the books George left a clear way for this to happen: Robb's will)
  • Cersei will eventually become queen of Westeros after some kind of massive killing that might involve wildfire (this was already hinted in the old sketch of the plot that George wrote in the nineties, the part that said that the Lannister antagonist was going to become king "by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession")
  • The Tyrells will eventually die (at least the most important ones)
  • Randyll Tarly will eventually betray the Tyrells (he was already described as dangerous in the epilogue of ADWD).

Anyway, what do you think? Are there other main events we can imply from the show?

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A few others I can think of, some people might not consider these settled...

  • Jon will not ultimately end up with Val
  • Tyrion will become Daenerys' HoQ
  • Arya will return to Westeros as Arya Stark
  • Barristan will die in Essos
  • Jaime and Brienne will survive their meeting with LSH

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Lady Stoneheart pacing through a mass slaughter of Freys, like the Masque of the Red Death, advancing on old Walder, vengeance incarnate. Hmm. Yeah, okay. I like it.

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Posted (edited)

There will be a wight dragon at some point.  That's what the 'stone beast taking wing, breathing shadow fire' image from HOTU is, I'm now convinced.  Since there is no NK in the books, I would guess Euron will be responsible for it.  

Davos will be become Jon's "Hand"  or top adviser when he's KITN.

Arya will play a role in killing LF.  There is a line in the Barristan TWOW chapter where a character called Little Pigeon is killed by the Red Lamb after tripping on his Bird armor; this is what made me think the show is not fabricating that development.  I suspect the context will be completely different in the books though.

Brienne will come to serve and protect Sansa.

Neither Theon or Asha will die during the battle for WF...which shocks me.  Maybe D&D just decided they wanted to keep the actors around a little long, but if the ending is supposed to be the same I don't see how that's possible.  So I do think they will both somehow survive it.  

Nothing will come of Euron and Vic's plans to marry Dany.

Euron/Cersei alliance (maybe sex) is totally fucking happening, thank the Gods.  My dream come true.    

Edited by Ser Wun Wun

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I think very little of what has been proposed here can be deduced from the show. Quite a bit looks wrong and much of it is stuff that can be deduced from the books.

The predictions I would make are that there is going to be a massive plot twist that is going to dash the hearts of 95% of folk here. And your tears are going to be as nectar etc. The fake Aegon plot was obviously not going to succeed but I think the manner of it failing is going to be connected with a set of plot changes that all hinge on the parentage of Aegon and Jon.

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21 hours ago, Frederic_ed said:

So as we know, George told David and Dan how the story will end. We also know they have streamlined the story and chopped off many characters and storylines, but they still will get to the same ending as the books'. So, we can certainly imply some future events from the books by looking at the show. I'm not only talking about little events, like Jon's resurrection or Shireen's burning, but major events. Anyway I think some of the main events are (includes season 7 spoilers):

  • Vary's plan (i.e. Aegon) will eventually fail. YES
  • Doran's plan will eventually fail (Arianne might marry Aegon in the books, so these two plots could merge, anyway they will both fail). YES, MARTELLS MAY BE ELIMINATED COMPLETELY, AEGON/ARIENNE/DORAN GOING NOWHERE
  • Littlefinger's plan will eventually fail. YES
  • The Boltons will be eliminated (by Stannis or Jon, it doesn't matter, the point is that they will all die). YES
  • Stannis will ultimately die (he might defeat the Boltons in the books, though, but in the end he will die). YES
  • Sansa and the Vale army will eventually go north. YES
  • All (more likely most) of the Freys will die in some kind of celebration or feast at the Twins (probably killed by Lady Stoneheart, although could be someone else's doing) YES
  • Jon will eventually become King in the North (in the show it didn't make a lot of sense, but in the books George left a clear way for this to happen: Robb's will) YES
  • Cersei will eventually become queen of Westeros after some kind of massive killing that might involve wildfire (this was already hinted in the old sketch of the plot that George wrote in the nineties, the part that said that the Lannister antagonist was going to become king "by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession") YES, BUT THE BLOWING UP OF THE SEPT COULD HAVE BEEN SHOW ONLY
  • The Tyrells will eventually die (at least the most important ones) YES
  • Randyll Tarly will eventually betray the Tyrells (he was already described as dangerous in the epilogue of ADWD).  NOT SURE ABOUT THIS, HE WILL DIE, BUT MAY NOT BETRAY THE TYRELLS AS THAT IS OUT OF CHARACTER FOR HIS BOOK SELF

Anyway, what do you think? Are there other main events we can imply from the show?

 

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  • Rickon Stark and Shaggy Dog will ultimately amount to nothing and likely be killed off.
  • Jojen Paste could be true as Jojen is likely dead.
  • Hizdahr zo Loraq will die.
  • The warlocks, Quaithe and Asshai are essentially dead end plots.

 

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22 hours ago, Frederic_ed said:

We also know they have streamlined the story and chopped off many characters and storylines,

That's a generous way of putting it. They completely altered almost all of the storylines (Stannis, Jaime, Cersei and Sansa being the most obvious examples most probably), while adding many of their own and expanding the arcs of characters they prefer to write (Bronn, Ramsay, Ros, Brienne etc.) so it's not really streamlining.

22 hours ago, Frederic_ed said:

but they still will get to the same ending as the books'.

That's what they say. Not necessarily what they think or want. They also said that, to their opinion, the show is very faithful to the books, even season five because "the first scene and the last scene are both from the books" (even though both scenes were greatly changed). So it's not like there is no reason to doubt what they say.

22 hours ago, Frederic_ed said:

So, we can certainly imply some future events from the books by looking at the show.

I think that's a futile task because it is evident that they didn't change things only when they absolutely had to stay faithful to the source material. If they stayed faithful to GRRM's original vision for endgame in some storylines, that's because a) they didn't have the idea how to change it, or b ) it was too complicated for them to change it because it's connected to other storylines. And it's anyone's guess at this point what remained as GRRM intended it and what was changed according to D&D's storytelling genius.

The best example is possibly Lady Stoneheart. GRRM dedicated time and pages to the developing of that subplot, which, given his record so far and the huge importance Cat as a character had in the first three books, means that LSH is going to be significant for the endgame in the books. D&D on the other hand cut her out, which means that in their universe LSH has no significance at all. All that means that GRRM's universe and D&D's universe are so different at this point, that it's practically impossible to figure out one based on the other.

Of course, some conclusions about the books' endgame are logical even without the show. Unless GRRM is a sadistic manipulator, Boltons are going to pay for their crimes, one way or the other. Stannis is probably going to die, as already hinted at in the books by himself. Sansa and The Vale army will go North eventually, as literally every of her chapters indicates. Arya will of course return to Westeros, because of the basic storytelling wisdom. And so on. But I don't think that even manners in which these things will happen can be guessed from the show.

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I'm sure it won't happen the same way, but I think it's fair to assume that Cersei will not be killed by the High Sparrow, and will in fact go on to obtain quite a bit of power. 

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-Bran will leave the cave

-Hold the Door

-Melly is a 400 hundred year old

-Dany will take the Dothraki army with her to Westeros

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Jons ressurection: Melisandre will do it. Not as some assumes Bran or BR.

Jons Parents: R+L=J confirmed. It was highly accepted, but there was no confirmation. At this point, it is quite sure. The show won't go on this matter in another direction.

Jon becomming King in the North. Although the books may vary how to get to this point, the result will be the same in the books. Although in the books it may happen through Robs will.

Cercei will triumph over the high septon and take revenge on the faith of the seven in KL culminating in their complete destruction. She will rule Kings Landing after those events. Allthough she may not crown herself as queen, but rule as a regent. Similar to Denethor II in LotR. 

Neither Eurons nor Victarions plans regardind Danny will work out. 

Danny will beginn her Invasion in Westeros with a huge Dothraki Army. 

Theon and Asha will survive the Battel for Winterfell. 

The Martells and the Aegon companion will fail. Probably the complete destruction of house Martell. Same for the Tyrells. 

Rickon is a big fat red herring. The shaggydog theory confirmed. His path will lead to nowhere. Davon will join Jon as his advisor. 

Sansa will lead the army of the Vale to Winterfell. Probably to support Jon taking it over. I am sure Stanis will win the battle of ice but will not be able to take Wintetfell. He will siege Winterfell though, but then Winter will take over. The siege will lead to the death of the majority of Stannis mens. This will lead him to burn his daughter. At the end this will have no effect, thus leading to stanis death. Not sure how he will die. 

Arya will return to Westeros. 

 

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On 5/12/2017 at 10:34 AM, Tifani said:

-Bran will leave the cave

-Hold the Door

-Melly is a 400 hundred year old

-Dany will take the Dothraki army with her to Westeros

I think the actress confirmed Mel's age years ago, when she was first cast and said something like "I'm a witch many hundred years old"

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On 5/12/2017 at 10:06 AM, StepStark said:

 

That's a generous way of putting it. They completely altered almost all of the storylines (Stannis, Jaime, Cersei and Sansa being the most obvious examples most probably), while adding many of their own and expanding the arcs of characters they prefer to write (Bronn, Ramsay, Ros, Brienne etc.) so it's not really streamlining.

That's what they say. Not necessarily what they think or want. They also said that, to their opinion, the show is very faithful to the books, even season five because "the first scene and the last scene are both from the books" (even though both scenes were greatly changed). So it's not like there is no reason to doubt what they say.

I think that's a futile task because it is evident that they didn't change things only when they absolutely had to stay faithful to the source material. If they stayed faithful to GRRM's original vision for endgame in some storylines, that's because a) they didn't have the idea how to change it, or b ) it was too complicated for them to change it because it's connected to other storylines. And it's anyone's guess at this point what remained as GRRM intended it and what was changed according to D&D's storytelling genius.

The best example is possibly Lady Stoneheart. GRRM dedicated time and pages to the developing of that subplot, which, given his record so far and the huge importance Cat as a character had in the first three books, means that LSH is going to be significant for the endgame in the books. D&D on the other hand cut her out, which means that in their universe LSH has no significance at all. All that means that GRRM's universe and D&D's universe are so different at this point, that it's practically impossible to figure out one based on the other.

Of course, some conclusions about the books' endgame are logical even without the show. Unless GRRM is a sadistic manipulator, Boltons are going to pay for their crimes, one way or the other. Stannis is probably going to die, as already hinted at in the books by himself. Sansa and The Vale army will go North eventually, as literally every of her chapters indicates. Arya will of course return to Westeros, because of the basic storytelling wisdom. And so on. But I don't think that even manners in which these things will happen can be guessed from the show.

Maybe LSH kills Littlefinger in the books (in addition to the Freys), maybe she does something else that will be done by Beric in the show, that might be the extent of her book plot (which is still very important: killing the Freys, killing Littlefinger and something else replaced by Beric)

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On 5/12/2017 at 4:10 PM, dsug said:

I'm sure it won't happen the same way, but I think it's fair to assume that Cersei will not be killed by the High Sparrow, and will in fact go on to obtain quite a bit of power. 

I'm actually really dubious about this. I believe she will blow up the sept, but I think that's going to be a final psychotic break when her children die rather than some power grab. 

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Other than those already listed, I think the show's book spoilers have more to do with spoilers by omission: by looking at what's been left out, we can make conclusions about whether those plots really mean anything in the grand scheme of things, and a lot has been left out.

I think most of the big show spoilers by inclusion are things fans were already pretty much agreed on: R+L=J, the Hound is the gravedigger, Stannis will die, etc. etc.

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Spoilers by inclusion: (pretty much confirmation of already existing expectations)

Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna.  Basically a given at this point.

Jon returns quickly.  Up in the air as to whether resurrected by Mel, or is only injured, but either way, it has little visible effect on him.

Jon becomes ruler in the North.  Pretty much expected.

Arya leaves the FM without difficulty and returns to Westeros.  Definitely will not become FM, because that would be too cool for the show to ignore.

Brienne joins Team Sansa, and Sansa goes North with the Vale army.

Spoilers by exclusion:

Aegon won't be siginificant in the end.

Dorne won't matter much either.

Rickon won't make it to the end.  At the least, he won't play any major role in what happens.

 

 

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On 19.5.2017 at 11:43 PM, Nevets said:

Arya leaves the FM without difficulty and returns to Westeros.  Definitely will not become FM, because that would be too cool for the show to ignore.

Brienne joins Team Sansa, and Sansa goes North with the Vale army.

 

I agree with your and the general Arya expectation, but it is not irrefutible. A faceless girl formerly known as Arya Stark could kill (or save) someone in Essos who would have been saved (or killed) by any other FM thereby influencing some main plot.  If this someone exists only in the book, then the show needs Arya to return to Westeros. Very small chance for this version, I have to admit.

 

In the book Brienne does not need to save Sansa as she is not in danger (yet), so her book path could lead her elsewhere (or nowhere, or to a quick death). Maybe Brienne is still in the show as she is played by a cool actress (similar to Bronn)

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3 minutes ago, Simon Tam said:

I agree with your and the general Arya expectation, but it is not irrefutible. A faceless girl formerly known as Arya Stark could kill (or save) someone in Essos who would have been saved (or killed) by any other FM thereby influencing some main plot.  If this someone exists only in the book, then the show needs Arya to return to Westeros. Very small chance for this version, I have to admit.

In that event, they would likely simply transfer the killing or saving to someone else.  Given the likely body count going forward, there is likely to be a large number of potential targets to choose from.

 

6 minutes ago, Simon Tam said:

In the book Brienne does not need to save Sansa as she is not in danger (yet), so her book path could lead her elsewhere (or nowhere, or to a quick death). Maybe Brienne is still in the show as she is played by a cool actress (similar to Bronn)

I'll admit that this is considerably less than a certainty.  I do think she will attach herself to at least one of the Stark girls.  Arya is a definite possibility if she winds up in the Riverlands.  Given that we got 8 chapters of what can only be regarded as character buildup in Feast, I am fairly confident that she will be around for some time to come.  Otherwise, her story would be an even bigger waste of time than it is already widely perceived to be.

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Jon will become King.

R+L=J

Stannis will die. I actually believe he will lose the Battle of Ice, but we'll see.

Arya will return to Westeros.

Tyrion and Dany will meet. He'll act as her Hand.

Sandor is the Gravedigger

Ramsay will kill Roose.

Sansa will go North with the Knights of the Vale and LF at ther back (and likely, Harry)

Cersei will kill the HS.

Daenerys will leave Daario.

Barristan Selmy will die at Mereen.

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