Disliking Tyrion Lannister

[Sigella]

43 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I feel like Tyrion overstates his cyvasse rating. Sure his game would be considered top shelf in most of Westeros. But Essos? I doubt he'd even make the  top 100. Heck, I doubt he'd crack the top 10 in Dorne.

It is quite remarkable how he convinces himself that all his losses wasnt really losses but rather him letting other people win. Funny that he never lets himself in on that one beforehand... 

[A Ghost of Someone]

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What do you presume he do that would not cost him his life? With out any proof other than his word. In order to not be "evil" according to you he should have condemned innocent children to death, condemn a brother he loved to death, all while writing his own death sentence? That's absurd. 

 

You are ignoring the rest of the picture though. If you are going to tell the story, tell it true. He is absolutely guilty of murdering Shae, a prostitute that he paid for & maybe was a bit delusional in regards to how she felt for him after she lied under oath, testifying against him in a trial for crime he didn't commit, after he found out the truth of Tysha, and after he found her lying in his hypocritical father's bed - whom had just allowed him to be sentenced to death for a crime he didn't commit. Is it still murder? Yes but it's quite a bit more understandable when telling the whole story. It isn't the same type of murder as Ramsay commits for an example. 

 

This is just ridiculous. Again, what do you propose he do about having a notion that his siblings had something to do with Bran's fall? Secondly she was in no danger from potential kidnappers so how should he have know that? He greets her. Show me any evidence in the text that suggests he "exposes her out of pride" He doesn't. 

Tyrion never even blinked when supporting the family treason. He could have told his father, suggested negotiation for surrender with concessions from stannis. He was a willing traitor and any claims he supports "justice" is utter Bullshit as everyone knows that Stannis is a just man. He wanted to make sure he inherited Casterly Rock.

As for. cat, the reason she travelled with ser rodrick alone was because of the kingsroad was somewhat dangerous and to draw less attention.

Shae testified against him because all she had was her life, in other words, everything, she had no agency, she was to testify or die. She was a prisoner. Tyrion murdered her out of deranged narcissistic hate.

Tyrion is no hero.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion never even blinked when supporting the family treason. He could have told his father, suggested negotiation for surrender with concessions from stannis. He was a willing traitor and any claims he supports "justice" is utter Bullshit as everyone knows that Stannis is a just man. He wanted to make sure he inherited Casterly Rock.

Stannis knew of the twincest as well. So he is as guilty as Tyrion no? What you are suggesting Tyrion should have done almost no person IRL or in Planetos would have done. 

CR is his birthright. 

2 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

As for. cat, the reason she travelled with ser rodrick alone was because of the kingsroad was somewhat dangerous and to draw less attention

And? I didn't say anything to contradict that & that has nothing to do with Tyrion. 

 

3 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Shae testified against him because all she had was her life, in other words, everything, she had no agency, she was to testify or die. She was a prisoner. Tyrion murdered her out of deranged narcissistic hate.

Ok so forgive Shae for taking the only viable option to her but don't forgive Tyrion? Anyway we have no idea if that's why Shae testified against him, it's speculation. Yes Tyrion murdered her. On that we can agree. Not out of anything deranged or narcissistic but he did indeed kill her & his father. 

 

5 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion is no hero

Did I say he was? 

[Adaneth]

Yeah, Tyrion isn't good peeps but I kinda understand why he is the way he is. When I think about Tysha and what happened to her I'm like deeply distressed. Tyrion was crushed when Jamie told him she was a whore and that she was paid. To finally learn, after all these years, that she was not and that she really did love him AND that she was raped by Tywin's guards, AND by him....well, that alone is smth really hard to live with. That would challenge anybody's sanity and humanity.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

4 hours ago, Sigella said:

It is quite remarkable how he convinces himself that all his losses wasnt really losses but rather him letting other people win. Funny that he never lets himself in on that one beforehand...

So true! Then he acts all smug and pleased with himself when he beats (f)Aegon. Lets be honest with ourselves young Griff's cyvasse skills are middling at absolute best. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Stannis knew of the twincest as well. So he is as guilty as Tyrion no? What you are suggesting Tyrion should have done almost no person IRL or in Planetos would have done. 

CR is his birthright. 

And? I didn't say anything to contradict that & that has nothing to do with Tyrion. 

 

Ok so forgive Shae for taking the only viable option to her but don't forgive Tyrion? Anyway we have no idea if that's why Shae testified against him, it's speculation. Yes Tyrion murdered her. On that we can agree. Not out of anything deranged or narcissistic but he did indeed kill her & his father. 

 

Did I say he was? 

Tyrion participated in the treasonous act of knowingly help his family usurp the iron throne to ensure he got CR.

Tywin obviously did not want him to have it anyway, so he was at least concerned about it. Stannis might have made sure he got it. Stannis is hard but just. Unjust people like the lannisters resent and fear suck people.

Tyrion had more choices than Shae and he made the selfish ones just about all the time. 

No but he is no poor, sympathetic victim either.

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

I think a lot of readers give Tyrion a pass and are overly sympathetic towards him because he is a Dwarf. While it seems to be out of the good nature of people/ readers to possibly want to feel that way,  there are many more characters who are deserving of empathy, sympathy and admiration.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion participated in the treasonous act of knowingly help his family usurp the iron throne to ensure he got CR.

Lol! Ok. How exactly did he do that & how did the Lannisters taking over the IT "ensure" he got CR? Because it didnt. He didn't get CR. 

 

1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tywin obviously did not want him to have it anyway, so he was at least concerned about it. Stannis might have made sure he got it. Stannis is hard but just. Unjust people like the lannisters resent and fear suck people.

I'm not sure what you are even arguing here. No Tywin didn't want him to have it & yes Tyrion wanted it because it was his birthright. You have ignored what I said about Stannis being privy to the twincest. So while Stannis may be hard & just he must also be a "willing traitor" by your standards. 

 

1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion had more choices than Shae and he made the selfish ones just about all the time. 

Again I don't know what you are arguing here. 

 

1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

No but he is no poor, sympathetic victim either.

I never said that either. 

 

1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I think a lot of readers give Tyrion a pass and are overly sympathetic towards him because he is a Dwarf. While it seems to be out of the good nature of people/ readers to possibly want to feel that way,  there are many more characters who are deserving of empathy, sympathy and admiration.

Of course I can only speak for myself but the reason I like Tyrion & don't think he is evil has nothing to do with him being a dwarf & everything to do with me understanding his motives. I understand how a decent person could snap & kill their father under the circumstances. Not that it's right, I just understand it. I have felt sympathy, empathy, & admiration for Tyrion at different times. I have also felt anger & frustration. I've felt all of these things for a number of characters. 

My point is: Tyrion is not a hero but he has done some heroic things (i.e. Blackwater) Tyrion is not a poor sympathetic victim but he has been mistreated & victimized. 

My issue with your posts in particular is that you aren't citing things Tyrion has done to portray him as bad or to state why you don't like him (and there are plenty of things to cite) instead you make things up & twist things around & lay blame at his feet that doesn't belong there & when I state the facts of the matter you ignore them & move on to something else he didn't do or couldn't help. 

 

[the trees have eyes]

21 hours ago, Sigella said:

Not at all. However I dont want the topic derailed into how great/not awful he is. Its supposed to be a roast (as stated in OP) and some are acting like the offended onlooker who interupts the show.

edit: off topic: I'm intruiged by the last par you wrote before about liking equalling to forgiving and how that make us a bit hypocritical because this has actually been how I have been explaining the forum-hate towards Dany. Its was the only explanation I could think of that didnt fall to pieces.

Although I'm also pretty sure misogyny plays a part in the Dany hate and if so what is it that plays a part in hating Tyrion? Am I a dwarfisist? Dwarfophobe?

It's all about a balanced assessment of the books and the characters isn't it?  If you are looking for a roast, indeed asking for it, then that is what you get until it becomes so distorted and disproportionate that you get counter-arguments from those who have become exasperated by it.  What drew me into this discussion (and I read the whole thread) was the poster claiming that people portrayed Tyrion as a saint when literally no one in the thread had done so but plenty had roasted him as you invited them to. 

And what I explicity argued agasint were the ideas that he is greedy, nasty, complicit in the twincest or arrogant / hotheaded in saying "hello" to Cat at the Crossroads Inn.  Seems fair to me.  I haven't argued that he was unwise to provoke Joffrey or take his power struggle with Cersei so far (kidnapping Tommen?!) or said anything about his relations with women (that really is a can if worms) other than to object to the idea that Shae was an utter spotless innocent, perjury and false testimony in a murder trial being far too big a thing to ignore the way some folks do (See below!!!).

Did you mean my comment about faulting all a character's actions being a barometer of how much someone dislikes them?  That is a very common reaction - to lose objectivity due to personal dislike or disapproval.  In story people are told Stannis was cuckolded by his fool and that his daughter is a bastard and they love it.  They love it because it's scurrilous and scandalous and it brings low a powerful figure far above them.  But that's not all of it.  They love it because Stannis is generally unpopular, cold, rigid, unsmiling, prudish and unforgiving so because they don't like him they revel in anything that tarnishes him.  Back in the real world I remember a poll in 2016 where a majority of people intending to vote for Trump said they believed Barack Obama was born outside the US and was secretly a muslim.  Now whether they actually belived that or not is questionable as what they were really doing was displaying their like for Trump and jumping with glee on anything that tarnished "the other guy".  And I haven't even got to Hilary Clinton and pizzagate or "lock her up!".  These are emotive responses not rational, considered ones and are based partly on a "team colours" anything to win mentality, partly on genuine dislike, instinctive or learned.  On these forums you can find any number of attacks on Catelyn Stark or Sansa or Dany, fewer on other characters but a "Jon betrayed the watch and noble Bowen Marsh did his duty" has gained a lot of support over the last couple of years.  Part of this degenerates into Jon fans and Dany fans attacking each other and accusing the other of fanboy/girl-ism and there are groups who identify with one character and because that character is or appears to be opposed to others they adopt the team colours approach, all objectivity out the window.

More subtlely, we all bring our own unconscious bias even when we try to be objective.  This is best summarised for me by E.H. Carr in "What is history?", a notable introdctory work for undergraduates in which he outlines how even things like facts are in some sense less than completely reliable, if only because the historian has to choose which facts to include, how much weight to give them and how to weave them into a narrative that explains complex events and developments.  Would the excluded facts allow a different narrative to be presented?  Often, yes, a very different one.  These forums are all about the selective use of "facts" to support an argument and the poster will have an unconscious, perhaps even conscious bias in what they are presenting just as an author will (and I'm not talking about regime propaganda or ideological rewritings of history). 

I'll happily admit I like Tyrion though not some of the things he has done or the person he became in ASOS / ADWD.  Does that mean I can't be objective?  I hope not.  I'll only argue agasint the points that seem unfair, either because the facts presented are too selective or the conclusions drawn too emotive rather than rational (see below!!).

I often struggle with some of the antipathy towards all of Dany, Cat and to a lesser degree Sansa and sometimes wonder in darker moods if it is simply misogyny but that's far too generalised an approach.  Slaver's Bay has been all about bloodshed for some people and therefore Dany is to blame.  For others it's been about emancipation and the probelms societal upheaval brings and so she's to blame for that too, but for others she's a liberator and mysha, the breaker of chains and bringer of hope.  Apparently that's too Disney for some people despite how bleakly GRRM has written post-liberation Slaver's Bay so she must be a dark queen in the making or Aerys come again.  Heaven forbid she have sexual thoughts and relationships but let's leave that one alone...

16 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion never even blinked when supporting the family treason. He could have told his father, suggested negotiation for surrender with concessions from stannis. He was a willing traitor and any claims he supports "justice" is utter Bullshit as everyone knows that Stannis is a just man. He wanted to make sure he inherited Casterly Rock.

As for. cat, the reason she travelled with ser rodrick alone was because of the kingsroad was somewhat dangerous and to draw less attention.

Shae testified against him because all she had was her life, in other words, everything, she had no agency, she was to testify or die. She was a prisoner. Tyrion murdered her out of deranged narcissistic hate.

Tyrion is no hero.

The family treason is de facto.  From WF Tyrion goes to the Wall, WF again, is kidnapped by Catelyn at the Crossroads Inn, kicked out the Bloody Gate by Lysa and finally meets up with his father near the Crossroads Inn again.  In the meantime Cersei has offed Robert, imprisoned Ned and put Joffrey on the Throne and Tywin has put the Lannister armies in the field agasint the Starks and Tullys.  What exactly do you think he should do?  No one cared waht he thought about any of this and it all happened without him!

As has been stated a number of times Tyrion loves Jaime and is fond of both Tommen and Myrcella.  Why would he betray his family and people he loves and condemn them to death?  If he betrayed his blood for loyalty to the throne he would be an unnatural pariah.  Even your Stannis betrayed his oath to Aerys and supported his brother Robert in his rebellion so perhaps you should reconsider your selective outrage at this "treason".  No one chooses a stranger over family or Stannis would have been off in Essos with Darry halping Viserys would he not?

Any hint from Tyrion that he intends to negotiate to put Stannis on the throne ends with his head on a pike whether it's Cersei/Joffrey or Tywin who puts it there.  There was a certain Florent who tried to make peace without Stannis's consent and Stannis burned him quickly enough, Tyrion is no fool to isolate himself in committing treason to the crown adn his family like that.

Justice?  ALLARR DEEM.  I know that's in caps but you ignored it before because it's an inconvenient fact that doesn't fit the selective narrative you want to tell.  Care to comment on what Tyrion does here and why?  Stannis, meanwhile, goes to war with his brother, who Mel conveniently murders for him, as she does Penrose, and goes about burning people who defy him or his allegience to his new God.  I don't thinnk Lord Sunglass got any justice myself, but maybe you do....

Does Tyrion want to inherit Casterly Rock?  Sure.  This is a feudal system where the eldest male heir inherits the entire family estate and holdings.  He is no different here to any character in story.  I mean look at Stannis's reacton when Renly got Storm's End!  And this is when SE was rightfully Robert's not either Stannis's or Renly's.  But by all means pretend that this is some particular vice peculiar to Tyrion.  And out of interest, how many times in ACOK when he is leading the defense of KL does he think to himself "this will get me CR, this is all lfor CR"?  Go on, how many times?

Cat knows why she is doing this.  We, the readers, know why she is doing this.  Tyrion has no way of knowing any of this.  He has a chance encounter with her and as he has done nothing wrong and has no reason to avoid her he greets her.  How awful!!

Shae testified against him for Cersei restoring the jewels Tyrion had given her, a marriage to a knight and a manse in the city which Cersei had promised.  She negotiated for them as payment from Cersei who later reneged on the deal (surprise, surprise). 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei I

She followed them back inside and watched as they bundled the girl up in her father's bloody blankets. Shae, her name was Shae. They had last spoken the night before the dwarf's trial by combat, after that smiling Dornish snake offered to champion him. Shae had been asking about some jewels Tyrion had given her, and certain promises Cersei might have made, a manse in the city and a knight to marry her. The queen made it plain that the whore would have nothing of her until she told them where Sansa Stark had gone. "You were her maid. Do you expect me to believe that you knew nothing of her plans?" she had said. Shae left in tears.

Shae is no innocent victim here, she was for hire: first by Tyrion, then Cersei, then Tywin.  Tyron and Tywin wanted her body, Cersei her testimony.  Don't be lured into thinking Shae was the niave helpless girl she prenteded to be on the stand, she took her opportunites when she saw them.

Ah, but he was a hero of the Battle of the Blackwater, no?  And I wager by the time the story is told he'll be a hero (and Dany and Jon too).  Just not the white-hatted good King Aragorn type of hero.

[A Ghost of Someone]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Lol! Ok. How exactly did he do that & how did the Lannisters taking over the IT "ensure" he got CR? Because it didnt. He didn't get CR. 

 

I'm not sure what you are even arguing here. No Tywin didn't want him to have it & yes Tyrion wanted it because it was his birthright. You have ignored what I said about Stannis being privy to the twincest. So while Stannis may be hard & just he must also be a "willing traitor" by your standards. 

 

Again I don't know what you are arguing here. 

 

I never said that either. 

 

Of course I can only speak for myself but the reason I like Tyrion & don't think he is evil has nothing to do with him being a dwarf & everything to do with me understanding his motives. I understand how a decent person could snap & kill their father under the circumstances. Not that it's right, I just understand it. I have felt sympathy, empathy, & admiration for Tyrion at different times. I have also felt anger & frustration. I've felt all of these things for a number of characters. 

My point is: Tyrion is not a hero but he has done some heroic things (i.e. Blackwater) Tyrion is not a poor sympathetic victim but he has been mistreated & victimized. 

My issue with your posts in particular is that you aren't citing things Tyrion has done to portray him as bad or to state why you don't like him (and there are plenty of things to cite) instead you make things up & twist things around & lay blame at his feet that doesn't belong there & when I state the facts of the matter you ignore them & move on to something else he didn't do or couldn't help. 

 

Tyrion was a willing participant to treason for personal gain.

Of course Stannis knew, he was fighting for his rightful throne.

Blackwater, he was as good as dead anyway and was a villain for willingly fighting against Stannis.

No, I co not like Tyrion but not as much as I dislike others. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's all about a balanced assessment of the books and the characters isn't it?  If you are looking for a roast, indeed asking for it, then that is what you get until it becomes so distorted and disproportionate that you get counter-arguments from those who have become exasperated by it.  What drew me into this discussion (and I read the whole thread) was the poster claiming that people portrayed Tyrion as a saint when literally no one in the thread had done so but plenty had roasted him as you invited them to. 

And what I explicity argued agasint were the ideas that he is greedy, nasty, complicit in the twincest or arrogant / hotheaded in saying "hello" to Cat at the Crossroads Inn.  Seems fair to me.  I haven't argued that he was unwise to provoke Joffrey or take his power struggle with Cersei so far (kidnapping Tommen?!) or said anything about his relations with women (that really is a can if worms) other than to object to the idea that Shae was an utter spotless innocent, perjury and false testimony in a murder trial being far too big a thing to ignore the way some folks do (See below!!!).

Did you mean my comment about faulting all a character's actions being a barometer of how much someone dislikes them?  That is a very common reaction - to lose objectivity due to personal dislike or disapproval.  In story people are told Stannis was cuckolded by his fool and that his daughter is a bastard and they love it.  They love it because it's scurrilous and scandalous and it brings low a powerful figure far above them.  But that's not all of it.  They love it because Stannis is generally unpopular, cold, rigid, unsmiling, prudish and unforgiving so because they don't like him they revel in anything that tarnishes him.  Back in the real world I remember a poll in 2016 where a majority of people intending to vote for Trump said they believed Barack Obama was born outside the US and was secretly a muslim.  Now whether they actually belived that or not is questionable as what they were really doing was displaying their like for Trump and jumping with glee on anything that tarnished "the other guy".  And I haven't even got to Hilary Clinton and pizzagate or "lock her up!".  These are emotive responses not rational, considered ones and are based partly on a "team colours" anything to win mentality, partly on genuine dislike, instinctive or learned.  On these forums you can find any number of attacks on Catelyn Stark or Sansa or Dany, fewer on other characters but a "Jon betrayed the watch and noble Bowen Marsh did his duty" has gained a lot of support over the last couple of years.  Part of this degenerates into Jon fans and Dany fans attacking each other and accusing the other of fanboy/girl-ism and there are groups who identify with one character and because that character is or appears to be opposed to others they adopt the team colours approach, all objectivity out the window.

More subtlely, we all bring our own unconscious bias even when we try to be objective.  This is best summarised for me by E.H. Carr in "What is history?", a notable introdctory work for undergraduates in which he outlines how even things like facts are in some sense less than completely reliable, if only because the historian has to choose which facts to include, how much weight to give them and how to weave them into a narrative that explains complex events and developments.  Would the excluded facts allow a different narrative to be presented?  Often, yes, a very different one.  These forums are all about the selective use of "facts" to support an argument and the poster will have an unconscious, perhaps even conscious bias in what they are presenting just as an author will (and I'm not talking about regime propaganda or ideological rewritings of history). 

I'll happily admit I like Tyrion though not some of the things he has done or the person he became in ASOS / ADWD.  Does that mean I can't be objective?  I hope not.  I'll only argue agasint the points that seem unfair, either because the facts presented are too selective or the conclusions drawn too emotive rather than rational (see below!!).

I often struggle with some of the antipathy towards all of Dany, Cat and to a lesser degree Sansa and sometimes wonder in darker moods if it is simply misogyny but that's far too generalised an approach.  Slaver's Bay has been all about bloodshed for some people and therefore Dany is to blame.  For others it's been about emancipation and the probelms societal upheaval brings and so she's to blame for that too, but for others she's a liberator and mysha, the breaker of chains and bringer of hope.  Apparently that's too Disney for some people despite how bleakly GRRM has written post-liberation Slaver's Bay so she must be a dark queen in the making or Aerys come again.  Heaven forbid she have sexual thoughts and relationships but let's leave that one alone...

The family treason is de facto.  From WF Tyrion goes to the Wall, WF again, is kidnapped by Catelyn at the Crossroads Inn, kicked out the Bloody Gate by Lysa and finally meets up with his father near the Crossroads Inn again.  In the meantime Cersei has offed Robert, imprisoned Ned and put Joffrey on the Throne and Tywin has put the Lannister armies in the field agasint the Starks and Tullys.  What exactly do you think he should do?  No one cared waht he thought about any of this and it all happened without him!

As has been stated a number of times Tyrion loves Jaime and is fond of both Tommen and Myrcella.  Why would he betray his family and people he loves and condemn them to death?  If he betrayed his blood for loyalty to the throne he would be an unnatural pariah.  Even your Stannis betrayed his oath to Aerys and supported his brother Robert in his rebellion so perhaps you should reconsider your selective outrage at this "treason".  No one chooses a stranger over family or Stannis would have been off in Essos with Darry halping Viserys would he not?

Any hint from Tyrion that he intends to negotiate to put Stannis on the throne ends with his head on a pike whether it's Cersei/Joffrey or Tywin who puts it there.  There was a certain Florent who tried to make peace without Stannis's consent and Stannis burned him quickly enough, Tyrion is no fool to isolate himself in committing treason to the crown adn his family like that.

Justice?  ALLARR DEEM.  I know that's in caps but you ignored it before because it's an inconvenient fact that doesn't fit the selective narrative you want to tell.  Care to comment on what Tyrion does here and why?  Stannis, meanwhile, goes to war with his brother, who Mel conveniently murders for him, as she does Penrose, and goes about burning people who defy him or his allegience to his new God.  I don't thinnk Lord Sunglass got any justice myself, but maybe you do....

Does Tyrion want to inherit Casterly Rock?  Sure.  This is a feudal system where the eldest male heir inherits the entire family estate and holdings.  He is no different here to any character in story.  I mean look at Stannis's reacton when Renly got Storm's End!  And this is when SE was rightfully Robert's not either Stannis's or Renly's.  But by all means pretend that this is some particular vice peculiar to Tyrion.  And out of interest, how many times in ACOK when he is leading the defense of KL does he think to himself "this will get me CR, this is all lfor CR"?  Go on, how many times?

Cat knows why she is doing this.  We, the readers, know why she is doing this.  Tyrion has no way of knowing any of this.  He has a chance encounter with her and as he has done nothing wrong and has no reason to avoid her he greets her.  How awful!!

Shae testified against him for Cersei restoring the jewels Tyrion had given her, a marriage to a knight and a manse in the city which Cersei had promised.  She negotiated for them as payment from Cersei who later reneged on the deal (surprise, surprise). 

Shae is no innocent victim here, she was for hire: first by Tyrion, then Cersei, then Tywin.  Tyron and Tywin wanted her body, Cersei her testimony.  Don't be lured into thinking Shae was the niave helpless girl she prenteded to be on the stand, she took her opportunites when she saw them.

Ah, but he was a hero of the Battle of the Blackwater, no?  And I wager by the time the story is told he'll be a hero (and Dany and Jon too).  Just not the white-hatted good King Aragorn type of hero.

[The Fattest Leech]

I am going to have to trust in the author's intent with regards this little monkey demon...

Amazon.com: Do you have a favorite character?

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

 

[coolsaladgirl93]

I don't know if this has been brought up yet, I'm still reading through the thread but one thing I loathe about Tyrion is that he and all of his fans seem to think he is some master player of the game, when he spends all of Clash letting Varys manipulate him and he should have had Littlefinger killed the moment he stepped into Kings Landing. He's not a player, he's a pawn of Varys and the fact that he didn't realize it really bothers me

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

47 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion was a willing participant to treason for personal gain.

Of course Stannis knew, he was fighting for his rightful throne.

Blackwater, he was as good as dead anyway and was a villain for willingly fighting against Stannis.

No, I co not like Tyrion but not as much as I dislike others. 

 

But what act of treason was Tyrion complicit in? If you're referring to the Joffrey inheriting the throne after the death of his presumed father, the king, he wasn't in Kings Landing for any of that. Is it treason for him to then want to keep his family in power, as opposed to standing aside while Stannis sacked Kings Landing and killed his entire family, including him? I like Tyrion and not because he's a dwarf, but because he's human, he's not perfect or cruel hearted, he has good and bad tendencies, like everyone else. Murder is never a just act, but he didn't do it because he was cruel and sadistic, he did it out of heartache, the woman he loved, may not have loved him just as much, and easily pushed him aside for the surviving Lannister, so to speak. He was hurt and his hurt got the best of them at that point. It's almost clear later on, that he regretted taking her life, I think.

[A Ghost of Someone]

53 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 

But what act of treason was Tyrion complicit in? If you're referring to the Joffrey inheriting the throne after the death of his presumed father, the king, he wasn't in Kings Landing for any of that. Is it treason for him to then want to keep his family in power, as opposed to standing aside while Stannis sacked Kings Landing and killed his entire family, including him? I like Tyrion and not because he's a dwarf, but because he's human, he's not perfect or cruel hearted, he has good and bad tendencies, like everyone else. Murder is never a just act, but he didn't do it because he was cruel and sadistic, he did it out of heartache, the woman he loved, may not have loved him just as much, and easily pushed him aside for the surviving Lannister, so to speak. He was hurt and his hurt got the best of them at that point. It's almost clear later on, that he regretted taking her life, I think.

Tyrion did what he did out if selfish reasons and Lannister arrogance. 

His Daddy sacked KL and he had no problem with it. Tyein ordered the murder of trueborn Royal Children. Stannis was the rightful king and he knew it. He deserves no free pass for his actions but opinions vary.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Tyrion did what he did out if selfish reasons and Lannister arrogance. 

His Daddy sacked KL and he had no problem with it. Tyein ordered the murder of trueborn Royal Children. Stannis was the rightful king and he knew it. He deserves no free pass for his actions but opinions vary.

Tyrion was not even a teenager when that happened. What do you expect him to have done?

 

I'm no fan of Tyrion, but some of the things he is being attacked on here are ridiculous. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion was not even a teenager when that happened. What do you expect him to have done?

 

I'm no fan of Tyrion, but some of the things he is being attacked on here are ridiculous. 

It is just sort of "rich" how he gets a pass from much of the fan base when he is mostly a hypocrite.

[Wild Bill]

9 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's all about a balanced assessment of the books and the characters isn't it?  If you are looking for a roast, indeed asking for it, then that is what you get until it becomes so distorted and disproportionate that you get counter-arguments from those who have become exasperated by it.  What drew me into this discussion (and I read the whole thread) was the poster claiming that people portrayed Tyrion as a saint when literally no one in the thread had done so but plenty had roasted him as you invited them to.

...

Stop making sense!

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

37 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

It is just sort of "rich" how he gets a pass from much of the fan base when he is mostly a hypocrite.

You have literally ignored everything any one has said & replied with more nonsense. Not one person on this thread has given him a "pass" & you have yet to show any evidence or even a suggestion of evidence for any one of your absurd claims. We get it. You don't like the character. 

[Sigella]

20 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's all about a balanced assessment of the books and the characters isn't it?  If you are looking for a roast, indeed asking for it, then that is what you get until it becomes so distorted and disproportionate that you get counter-arguments from those who have become exasperated by it.  What drew me into this discussion (and I read the whole thread) was the poster claiming that people portrayed Tyrion as a saint when literally no one in the thread had done so but plenty had roasted him as you invited them to. 

And what I explicity argued agasint were the ideas that he is greedy, nasty, complicit in the twincest or arrogant / hotheaded in saying "hello" to Cat at the Crossroads Inn.  Seems fair to me.  I haven't argued that he was unwise to provoke Joffrey or take his power struggle with Cersei so far (kidnapping Tommen?!) or said anything about his relations with women (that really is a can if worms) other than to object to the idea that Shae was an utter spotless innocent, perjury and false testimony in a murder trial being far too big a thing to ignore the way some folks do (See below!!!).

Did you mean my comment about faulting all a character's actions being a barometer of how much someone dislikes them?  That is a very common reaction - to lose objectivity due to personal dislike or disapproval.  In story people are told Stannis was cuckolded by his fool and that his daughter is a bastard and they love it.  They love it because it's scurrilous and scandalous and it brings low a powerful figure far above them.  But that's not all of it.  They love it because Stannis is generally unpopular, cold, rigid, unsmiling, prudish and unforgiving so because they don't like him they revel in anything that tarnishes him.  Back in the real world I remember a poll in 2016 where a majority of people intending to vote for Trump said they believed Barack Obama was born outside the US and was secretly a muslim.  Now whether they actually belived that or not is questionable as what they were really doing was displaying their like for Trump and jumping with glee on anything that tarnished "the other guy".  And I haven't even got to Hilary Clinton and pizzagate or "lock her up!".  These are emotive responses not rational, considered ones and are based partly on a "team colours" anything to win mentality, partly on genuine dislike, instinctive or learned.  On these forums you can find any number of attacks on Catelyn Stark or Sansa or Dany, fewer on other characters but a "Jon betrayed the watch and noble Bowen Marsh did his duty" has gained a lot of support over the last couple of years.  Part of this degenerates into Jon fans and Dany fans attacking each other and accusing the other of fanboy/girl-ism and there are groups who identify with one character and because that character is or appears to be opposed to others they adopt the team colours approach, all objectivity out the window.

More subtlely, we all bring our own unconscious bias even when we try to be objective.  This is best summarised for me by E.H. Carr in "What is history?", a notable introdctory work for undergraduates in which he outlines how even things like facts are in some sense less than completely reliable, if only because the historian has to choose which facts to include, how much weight to give them and how to weave them into a narrative that explains complex events and developments.  Would the excluded facts allow a different narrative to be presented?  Often, yes, a very different one.  These forums are all about the selective use of "facts" to support an argument and the poster will have an unconscious, perhaps even conscious bias in what they are presenting just as an author will (and I'm not talking about regime propaganda or ideological rewritings of history). 

I'll happily admit I like Tyrion though not some of the things he has done or the person he became in ASOS / ADWD.  Does that mean I can't be objective?  I hope not.  I'll only argue agasint the points that seem unfair, either because the facts presented are too selective or the conclusions drawn too emotive rather than rational (see below!!).

I often struggle with some of the antipathy towards all of Dany, Cat and to a lesser degree Sansa and sometimes wonder in darker moods if it is simply misogyny but that's far too generalised an approach.  Slaver's Bay has been all about bloodshed for some people and therefore Dany is to blame.  For others it's been about emancipation and the probelms societal upheaval brings and so she's to blame for that too, but for others she's a liberator and mysha, the breaker of chains and bringer of hope.  Apparently that's too Disney for some people despite how bleakly GRRM has written post-liberation Slaver's Bay so she must be a dark queen in the making or Aerys come again.  Heaven forbid she have sexual thoughts and relationships but let's leave that one alone...

The family treason is de facto.  From WF Tyrion goes to the Wall, WF again, is kidnapped by Catelyn at the Crossroads Inn, kicked out the Bloody Gate by Lysa and finally meets up with his father near the Crossroads Inn again.  In the meantime Cersei has offed Robert, imprisoned Ned and put Joffrey on the Throne and Tywin has put the Lannister armies in the field agasint the Starks and Tullys.  What exactly do you think he should do?  No one cared waht he thought about any of this and it all happened without him!

As has been stated a number of times Tyrion loves Jaime and is fond of both Tommen and Myrcella.  Why would he betray his family and people he loves and condemn them to death?  If he betrayed his blood for loyalty to the throne he would be an unnatural pariah.  Even your Stannis betrayed his oath to Aerys and supported his brother Robert in his rebellion so perhaps you should reconsider your selective outrage at this "treason".  No one chooses a stranger over family or Stannis would have been off in Essos with Darry halping Viserys would he not?

Any hint from Tyrion that he intends to negotiate to put Stannis on the throne ends with his head on a pike whether it's Cersei/Joffrey or Tywin who puts it there.  There was a certain Florent who tried to make peace without Stannis's consent and Stannis burned him quickly enough, Tyrion is no fool to isolate himself in committing treason to the crown adn his family like that.

Justice?  ALLARR DEEM.  I know that's in caps but you ignored it before because it's an inconvenient fact that doesn't fit the selective narrative you want to tell.  Care to comment on what Tyrion does here and why?  Stannis, meanwhile, goes to war with his brother, who Mel conveniently murders for him, as she does Penrose, and goes about burning people who defy him or his allegience to his new God.  I don't thinnk Lord Sunglass got any justice myself, but maybe you do....

Does Tyrion want to inherit Casterly Rock?  Sure.  This is a feudal system where the eldest male heir inherits the entire family estate and holdings.  He is no different here to any character in story.  I mean look at Stannis's reacton when Renly got Storm's End!  And this is when SE was rightfully Robert's not either Stannis's or Renly's.  But by all means pretend that this is some particular vice peculiar to Tyrion.  And out of interest, how many times in ACOK when he is leading the defense of KL does he think to himself "this will get me CR, this is all lfor CR"?  Go on, how many times?

Cat knows why she is doing this.  We, the readers, know why she is doing this.  Tyrion has no way of knowing any of this.  He has a chance encounter with her and as he has done nothing wrong and has no reason to avoid her he greets her.  How awful!!

Shae testified against him for Cersei restoring the jewels Tyrion had given her, a marriage to a knight and a manse in the city which Cersei had promised.  She negotiated for them as payment from Cersei who later reneged on the deal (surprise, surprise). 

Shae is no innocent victim here, she was for hire: first by Tyrion, then Cersei, then Tywin.  Tyron and Tywin wanted her body, Cersei her testimony.  Don't be lured into thinking Shae was the niave helpless girl she prenteded to be on the stand, she took her opportunites when she saw them.

Ah, but he was a hero of the Battle of the Blackwater, no?  And I wager by the time the story is told he'll be a hero (and Dany and Jon too).  Just not the white-hatted good King Aragorn type of hero.

I'm certain no living human is capable of absolute objectivity. We cannot reason on that level because if we do we have to leave all morality and values (objectively there cannot be anything "good" or "bad") behind, which we can't.  

So we have to assume everyone are totally bias in all things.

This bias thing is interesting though because it can show us what we hide from ourselves. I'm curious as to what bias against Tyrion says of the person who has it? I think it might be easier to spot by persons not having it. And I clearly do.