Princess_of_Sunspear

Why wasn't fAegon raised in Dorne incognito?

11 posts in this topic

It's been a while since I've read fAegon theories, so I hope this wasn't a point that's been discussed to the moon and back.

There is a point that kind of sticks out with me when it comes to Aegon that Varys peddles- if he really is the child Elia and Rhaegar had, why wasn't he transported to Dorne and raised there, under the watchful eyes of his mothers family, rather than shipped off to some godforsaken part of Essos on a crappy little barge with very little security, and I don't mean security against any assassins- I mean basic security like not coming across pirates or sailing around Stone Men? Yes, it would be dangerous for Dorne to be harbouring a Targ heir, but he didn't have to be presented as such, we've seen how Ned successfully pulled the wool over everyone's eyes for years, taking  Jon and passing him off as his bastard. And that was honourable Ned freaking Stark, a guy who was hardly known for being a ladies man the way his best mate was. Who do we know that had a beloved sister that was dead before her time and at the same time known for being sexually promiscuous and known for having bastards? Oberyn! I'm sure that if it came to sheltering his sisters son by presenting him as his own bastard and then raising him in relative comfort and level of education offered to his "half-sisters" and cousins, he would've jumped at the chance, or left him with Doran the way Robert left Edric Storm with Renly. That way the perfect little Targ heir is raised by his uncle as his dad, and Martells have someone to rally behind when they get a chance. Aegon wouldn't even have to suffer the same problems Jon had, Dorne is far more accepting of bastards, and Sand Snakes are fairly well treated (too well, given their insolence tbh). Now, there is a problem with his potentials Valyrian looks, but purple eyes  are not unheard of in Dorne- Daynes are known to have those, and in any case, Dorne is sufficiently close to Essos to explain any Valyrian features in Oberyns offspring- and he is known as a man who likes his variety in women, so he could just say he got him with some Lyseni gal he met at a tavern. He is different from Ned in that he's rash and known to be dangerously cocky and impulsive, but I'm pretty sure he'd understand how much danger his nephew is in if he shoots his mouth off- and there is Doran, the more cautious guy who would give him support. 

The only few reasons they wouldn't leave him at Dorne is a)security and potential danger to Martells that Doran wouldn't want to chance b ) Varys wouldn't want to give up an important chess piece to other players, and c) the kid has nothing to do with Elia and he wouldn't want to risk Martells finding that out. The first two can be worked around- Varys and Illyrio were ready to commit Vicerys to Martells and Doran was happy to play the convoluted game of trying to bring him and Adrianne together (in which case they should've sent volatile  Vicerys somewhere safer than Dothraki plains, where he could meet Arianne in secret, which any Free city qualifies for), and Vicerys is no less important in terms of Targaryen succession than Aegon - in any case, Martells would be more likely to fight for their blood than the unstable son of an unstable father. And the last bit could also be worked around, because Martells wouldn't suspect anything even if the child looked nothing like them or their sister - people don't normally look beyond obvious marks such as eye/hair colour and any prominent mannerisms and features- they could look at any generic Valyrian looking kid and see their sisters only son because it's what they'd want to see. 

I hope this not completely off the topic, as this is about doubts to fAegon identity. It's been a while since I've discussed fAegon theories so I apologise if my idea isn't new.

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Doran was bound to marry Arianne to Viserys.  It is acknowledged that had Viserys known of the pact, he would have immediately traveled to Sunspear, and the subsequent events would have resulted in House Martell being destroyed in its entirety. 

You say the truth when you type "fAegon", instead of Aegon.  This child is not Elia's.

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The reasons you listed, plus him living like a peasant was one of fAegon's selling points. You kind of lose that if you send him to live in luxury as one a Martell bastard.

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Varys most likely wanted him to be raised into his ideal of a king rather than letting Elia's family shape him to be their's.

Also who else think fAegon is a Blackfyre descendent? 

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3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

The reasons you listed, plus him living like a peasant was one of fAegon's selling points. You kind of lose that if you send him to live in luxury as one a Martell bastard.

 

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

The reasons you listed, plus him living like a peasant was one of fAegon's selling points. You kind of lose that if you send him to live in luxury as one a Martell bastard.

That's a good idea in principle, but it depends on who they are selling him to- yes, a guy who lived like a peasant is more likely to appeal in a democratic setting, but they need to sell him to any potential allies- powerful lords who might not necessarily be into the whole peasant prince as much as Varys is. After all, Egg wasn't liked by the lords after he made reforms to allow more freedom to smallfolk as lords saw it as an infringement to their rights. Varys and Illyrio need allies in Westeros to back this guy, and even Martells are unsure now- how can they even tell if he's the real deal? 

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

Varys most likely wanted him to be raised into his ideal of a king rather than letting Elia's family shape him to be their's.

Also who else think fAegon is a Blackfyre descendent? 

I suppose that he wouldn't want to relinquish the control to Martells, that's a good reason. But the whole set up was fairly risky to me, an important heir raised in wilderness with very few attendants- anything could've happened to him between Roberts Rebellion and the events in the last few books.

I don't know if he's a Blackfyre, he might well be, but the fact that there are no people who could corroborate Varys' story is telling- the only people in the loop are him, Illyrio and Griff. Babies don't look much like anyone at the age he was supposedly spirited away, so he could be anyone. 

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Not everything has a logical, in-story explaination. Maybe GRRM wanted the doubt around fAegon's true descendence and decided  for example him being raised in the Water Gardens with Doran truly believing he's the real deal would prevent us readers from doubting Aegon. Also he already wrote Oberyn, his motivation and his death. I think it would be to his character's detrement to let a believed Aegon galavanting around Dorne. His personal vendetta against Tywin and the Mountain would be a lot more satisfyingly executed if he first arranged with his trusted plotter of a brother to set Aegon up for the throne by gathering support with Targ loyalist and unhappy houses (Tarly, Hightower, Darry, Baratheon during the Wot5K, etc) and then Oberyn suiciding in KL killing all the Lannister shitheads (poisoning Tywin like he probably did, kill the Mountain like he basically did, maybe take a dig at Tommen (a lot more threatening than Joff). 

Those characters would have acted in a similar fashion had they had the Aegon card. 

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We shouldn't also forget that if Aegon was in Dorne, someone might have grown wise and told Robert. Someone told Doran about Arianne's plans and someone seeking royal favor could absolutely have sent word to Robert about Targaryens in Dorne.

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Aegon needed to be completely 100% secret until they were ready to initiate their plans. Why let more people in on the secret?

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For me the theory that Aegon Targaryen is really a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre is nearly as solid as the theory that Jon Snow is really the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, so it's hard for me to look at it the other way around.

But let's consider Varys’s claims as truth...

Quote

"A true friend, our Lord Connington. He must be, to remain so fiercely loyal to the grandson of the king who took his lands and titles and sent him into exile. A pity about that. Elsewise Prince Rhaegar's friend might have been on hand when my father sacked King's Landing, to save Prince Rhaegar's precious little son from getting his royal brains dashed out against a wall."

The lad flushed. "That was not me. I told you. That was some tanner's son from Pisswater Bend whose mother died birthing him. His father sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. He had other sons but had never tasted Arbor gold. Varys gave the Pisswater boy to my lady mother and carried me away."

"Aye." Tyrion moved his elephants. "And when the pisswater prince was safely dead, the eunuch smuggled you across the narrow sea to his fat friend the cheesemonger, who hid you on a poleboat and found an exile lord willing to call himself your father. It does make for a splendid story, and the singers will make much of your escape once you take the Iron Throne … assuming that our fair Daenerys takes you for her consort."

Tyrion VI, Dance 22

For the moment, let’s ignore the scintilla of doubt expressed in the first paragraph quoted above. (And that the doubt is echoed several more times, e.g., “He may well be a Targaryen after all,” and “...his eyes were a deep purple, darker than this boy's.”)

We know Aerys was already at least considering naming Viserys his heir, and Viserys was alive, presumably as safe as could be on Dragonstone with the Targaryen fleet. So, it’s unlikely that Aerys was overly concerned about Aegon after Rhaegar’s defeat. But perhaps Varys was. For reasons we read in the Epilogue, we see that as Eddard and his pack of wolves descended on King’s Landing, and as Tywin approached with his pride of lions, Varys convinced the fair but frail Elia that she must give her son over to the spider for safekeeping. Knowing that her husband, her uncle, and the better part of her brother’s army had been defeated on the Trident, Elia despaired and turned her son over to the spider. Rather than pack the boy off to his grandmother on Dragonstone, rather than sending the boy Highgarden, Oldtown, or the Arbor, rather than sending the boy to his uncle, the Prince of Dorne, the spider—whose power comes from the slave children he has mutilated and stuffed into the dark places of the Red Keep—decides to send the boy off to his old partner in crime Illyrio Mopatis, high cheesemonger and magister of Pentos.

Presumably, Varys knows that Illyrio is indebted to him and/or that Illyrio shares his motivation. So, what is Varys’s motivation? Why, it’s idealism in the form of a benevolent despotism...

Quote

"I thought the crossbow fitting. You shared so much with Lord Tywin, why not that? Your niece will think the Tyrells had you murdered, mayhaps with the connivance of the Imp. The Tyrells will suspect her. Someone somewhere will find a way to blame the Dornishmen. Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm's End and the lords of the realm gather round him."

"Aegon?" For a moment he did not understand. Then he remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains. "Dead. He's dead."

"No." The eunuch's voice seemed deeper. "He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

Kevan Lannister tried to cry out … to his guards, his wife, his brother … but the words would not come. Blood dribbled from his mouth. He shuddered violently.

"I am sorry." Varys wrung his hands. "You are suffering, I know, yet here I stand going on like some silly old woman. Time to make an end to it."

Epilogue, Dance

And we will ignore the not-so-subtle hint from the author in the last paragraph that Vary’s statement was an evil monologue for the benefit of the reader. Oh, and we better ignore the fact that Varys and Illyrio conspired to bring down the Robert Baratheon/Jon Arryn regime, which was relatively prosperous, and to set loose a Dothraki horde upon the land. Or perhaps we should just accept that the end justifies the means?

OK, so, as the OP asks, why not send the boy to Dorne? Well, for the reasons stated up-thread, the boy would not have been safe in Dorne. But would the boy really have been expected to be any safer in Illyrio’s manse? Keep in mind that this must have been improvised, right?

Or should we assume that Varys and Illyrio had discussed this possibility with foresight? I think that’s the only way it’s believable. Otherwise, it would make more sense to smuggle him off to Dragonstone, and it would make even more sense to smuggle the baby off to Dorne, where he could be hidden at the Water Gardens during the remainder of his infancy. That would keep the eggs in separate baskets, and surely Doran and Oberyn would protect the son of their beloved sister, no? 

The bottom line, though is that Varys could be an idealist, and Illyrio might be so indebted to him, or he might share Varys’s idealism so much that they have risked all and devoted their lives to molding the perfect benevolent despot. 

But I think not. 

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18 hours ago, Princess_of_Sunspear said:

That's a good idea in principle, but it depends on who they are selling him to- yes, a guy who lived like a peasant is more likely to appeal in a democratic setting, but they need to sell him to any potential allies- powerful lords who might not necessarily be into the whole peasant prince as much as Varys is. After all, Egg wasn't liked by the lords after he made reforms to allow more freedom to smallfolk as lords saw it as an infringement to their rights. Varys and Illyrio need allies in Westeros to back this guy, and even Martells are unsure now- how can they even tell if he's the real deal? 

Perhaps I should rephrase: it was what Varys wanted to used as his selling point.

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