Banner Without Brothers

Who is the dumbest POV character?

168 posts in this topic

I've just finished my 3rd read through and nearing the end one character really stood out as being much more stupid than I'd previously realized. Who am I talking about? Victarion.

 

It's mentioned that Victarion has often been tricked by his brothers. He mentions one time that people praise him then he finds out that their praise was meant mockingly. He also presents far less of a theory of mind, it seems as though he has trouble putting himself in others shoes, he doesn't really consider others thoughts or feelings. So that's social intelligence, but I also find him to be more prone to superstitions. Critical thinking never really comes into things for Victarion when it comes to gods and things like that. For example when he sacrifices the bed slaves even though Moqorro tells him it's not necessary. It's impulsive, not thought out and just blind to the advice or thoughts of others.

He hasn't made mistakes like Jon or Ned (apart from the king's moot).  But at least with Jon his mistakes seem to be down to inexperience or arrogance. 

 

Who do you think is the dumbest POV Character?

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Posted (edited)

Definitely Quentyn E. Coyote. Merrett Frey deserves a mention too.

Edited by Tucu

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I think there's a difference between doing something incredibly stupid like Theon and Quentyn and actually being stupid, easily manipulated and not being able to see others way of thinking.

Barristan doesn't think Quentyn stupid 

"Fool I call him" said Symon Stripeback.

No, just a boy. Ser Barristan had not forgotten the follies of his own youth.

I think with Quentyn it's down to being desperate, inexperienced and naive. Ok stay with me here this is a bit of a random analogy but if ASoIAF was set in a movie American high school; Quentyn would be your typical nerd whose awkwardness stop him getting what he wants, but he's still bookish and academically good. Victarion would be your stereotypical dumb jock who would barely be able to read and write but would be the schools star football player. (Theon would probably be the stoner kid)

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1 hour ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

It's mentioned that Victarion has often been tricked by his brothers. He mentions one time that people praise him then he finds out that their praise was meant mockingly. He also presents far less of a theory of mind, it seems as though he has trouble putting himself in others shoes, he doesn't really consider others thoughts or feelings. So that's social intelligence, but I also find him to be more prone to superstitions. Critical thinking never really comes into things for Victarion when it comes to gods and things like that. For example when he sacrifices the bed slaves even though Moqorro tells him it's not necessary. It's impulsive, not thought out and just blind to the advice or thoughts of others.

He hasn't made mistakes like Jon or Ned (apart from the king's moot).  But at least with Jon his mistakes seem to be down to inexperience or arrogance.

Who do you think is the dumbest POV Character?

I don't think there's anything as blatently dumb as "Euron's gifts are always poisoned" "the Dusky woman had been a gift from Euron" "Victarion confided all his deepest feelings and plans with the Dusky woman".

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14 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I don't think there's anything as blatently dumb as "Euron's gifts are always poisoned" "the Dusky woman had been a gift from Euron" "Victarion confided all his deepest feelings and plans with the Dusky woman".

Absolutely! It really makes me appreciate how differently Martin writes not just the thoughts of different characters but the way different characters think.

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Posted (edited)

There is a difference between dumb and stupid.

Dumb means mute, speechless, tongue-tied, silent, at a loss for words ----- so I would say Illyn Payne is dumbest.

Stupid is acting in an unintelligent or careless manner----- which would be Briennen and a few others.

Edited by Clegane'sPup
That was stupid of me to make that careless mistake with Brienne's name.

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Theon  strikes me as wilfully stupid-  often thinks himself the cleverest person in the room ( unlike Littlefinger who actually is), relies on being highborn to get along in the world, pretends to be hardass Ironborn when he wasn't raised as one when it mattered.

 

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In the earlier books especially, I thought Theon was a complete moron.

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The dumbest fans of Young Wolf are everywhere. :angry2: (this emoticon looks like Greyjoy)

My guess is Jaime. He thinks that Littlefinger could be good Hand of the King for Tommen. How one finger could be hand?

 

 

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Ned. Ned when he decided to give Cersei the heads up that he knew her secret. Like I get why he did that, but that was the dumbest move ever. Then him refusing to take the children in hand when Robert was dying. Honor is great and all, but JFC, dude! 

The Greyjoys are not the brightest bunch. Damphair is a dumb and a religious zealot to boot.

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Posted (edited)

Victarion is definitely the dumbest. It's not even up to a debate for me.

 

My top 3 would probably be:

1. Victarion

2. Cersei

3. Arys

That's excluding Prologue and Epilogue chapters because, for example, Chett is a serious contender for this top.

Edited by Dofs

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7 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Victarion is definitely the dumbest. It's not even up to a debate for me.

 

My top 3 would probably be:

1. Victarion

2. Cersei

3. Arys

That's excluding Prologue and Epilogue chapters because, for example, Chett is a serious contender for this top.

Arys is an excellent choice! I forgot about him. 

I don't find Theon stupid just arrogant & self centered. I guess I don't find Cersei stupid either. 

I would add Selyse to the stupid list 

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Posted (edited)

Arys Oakheart is a good one or should I say might be. I like the theory that the Myrcella that got her ear cut off wasn't actually Myrcella but her hand maiden Roslin. Meaning Arys' suicide would actually be quite a smart plan. Remember he keeps saying "Myrcella is safest if no one knows quite where she is"

So I hold out hope that Arys was actually being clever, you never know. For the rest of Arys he seems like a fool in love and love can make fools of us all.

My second choice would be Arianne. We know so little of the true Dornish master plan because we're viewing it mainly through the eyes of Arianne who doesn't get it. She's academically quite poor, shes often wrong about things like history. Doran leaves her out important books that a ruler should read and that will serve her well in the wars to come and for when he's gone. But she finds them too boring and wishes she had a novel instead. Her manipulation skills almost all come from her physical attributes rather than out witting people. And she's wrong about almost everything. Even her father doesn't trust her with his plans and she's his heir. I should say I actually really like Arianne and her chapters (minus the cringy sex scenes) but she's not the brightest bulb in the box.

Edited by Banner Without Brothers

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

Definitely Quentyn E. Coyote. Merrett Frey deserves a mention too.

omg that made me laugh out loud for real.  I second the nomination.

Hare-brained scheme? Check.

Deadly dragons downstairs? Check.

ACME(tm) brand whip? Check.

 Let's do this...

 

Edited by Reekazoid
fat fingers

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Drum roll... Jon Snow... cymbal crash, with drum flourish.

OK, Jon's a smart guy while being an idiot in many ways. As are many characters, as has been mentioned previously. OP is looking for stupid people. I'd love to go for Robb Stark for screwing up everything because he got layed. But he's not stupid.

Quentyn E. Coyote is brilliant! Definitely a finalist. All Iron Born qualify, which is boring. I'm torn between Jaime and Dany.

Jaime doesn't seem to express any particular intelligence - sure plenty of bully, then pathos after he loses his hand and reveals the good he has done, and quite a bit of stubbornness in making choices relating to his sister and father, and heart warming loyalty to Tyrion. He has a wicked cool speech at Rivverrun to get the Blackfish to surrender the castle (shame on the producers to not have it in the show). That seems to be the closest he gets to expressing intelligent thoughts.

Dany... Prizes loyalty and expresses same. She seems to alternate between over demanding power and sympathy for the poor folk, with no apparent strategic vision. She's a kid, traumatized throughout - I give her a break, but she seems to make emotional decisions rather than thoughtful ones. Though she does see the need to rule properly...

Such a quandary... Did I mention Stannis? The Red Woman who gets it wrong every time? Non-POV characters who fuck up all the time?

J'accuse George RR Martin, first of his name etc. Let us take him to the block and have Tyrion condemn him and have Arya Stark confirm the sentence with a quick slash...

Fade to black... thank you to OP to for an opportunity to... ponder the human stupidity that is in all of us.

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Catelyn is one long stream of stupidity, though the worst is probably when she for some reason fancied herself a military officer and tried giving her son strategic advice.

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Posted (edited)

Let's talk about Catelyn.  I disagreed with her decisions to [a] arrest Tyrion and (b) release Jaime kingslayer from captivity.  Both are more an act of selfishness than outright lack of intelligence.  The first, yeah, I guess you can say it was dumb.  I am saying it is more an act of selfishness.  The second one, the release of Jaime to x-change for her daughters, is just extreme selfishness.  She knew what it meant and the consequences it may lead to and she went ahead anyway. 

I still say Sansa Stark is the dumbest of the POV characters.  Oh yes, she too is selfish.  But I can stick the same label of selfishness on Robb.  But this thread is not about selfish, it's about mental dullness, so I say it's Sansa.

Edited by 300 H&H Magnum

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