Is Tyrion Lannisters crime to much?

[Stormking902]

I enjoy Tyrion Lannisters character and was rooting for him to succeed in becomming Tywins heir to CR since Jamie is in the KG and I always pictured Cersie dieing at some point along with her children leaving Tyrion who would get CR and be respected by his bannerman because of some great deed he accomished. 

Then out of no where Tyrions murders his lord father and IMO his chance of ever holding and keeping CR since none of the Westernlands nobility would ever follow a little monster like Tyrion who broke one of the most sacrid laws Westeros has and falsly killed his king as well. Some say Danny will give him CR but frankly the lords of the West would never allow it unless held at dragon fire which is a very bad thing to do politically  and there would be many revolts and plots to have Tyrion murdered at first chance. 

[Brannis the Mannis]

Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey, and Tywin, despite being an interesting character, totally deserved it. 

[Curled Finger]

I'm on the fence with this one.   Tyrion has made many mistakes but he's also performed feats of great heroism and valor.  No, I don't think Tyrion will ever have Casterly Rock.   I think he knew that when he killed Tywin, which was a crime of passion.   The problem with Tyrion is he maintained his whoring and drinking while he was Hand of the king.   His drinking continues to the point of suicidal, but his whoring has definitely ceased.  He's got himself into even more danger now.   I think CR is the last thing on his mind.  He was right when he confronted Tywin--by traditional law he had every right to inherit CR.  It had to be a bit like the situation with Tytos in Tywin's eyes.  He worked so hard to restore the Lannister name, lands and legacy and he wasn't about to have a person so much like his father retake the lands.   

I'm reasonably sure there will be much more important things to worry about than inheritance for Tyrion.   He already signed a great deal of his "inheritance" over to the Second Sons (fitting that) in order to join the company.   Who am I to say there will be anything left of the Westerlands by the time Tyrion returns to Westeros?  

[The Sunland Lord]

He would never have Casterly Rock anyways. His father refused him. 

Yes, Tyrion has done some nasty things. Maybe it is too much, or not, we'll see.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

I enjoy Tyrion Lannisters character and was rooting for him to succeed in becomming Tywins heir to CR since Jamie is in the KG and I always pictured Cersie dieing at some point along with her children leaving Tyrion who would get CR and be respected by his bannerman because of some great deed he accomished. 

Then out of no where Tyrions murders his lord father and IMO his chance of ever holding and keeping CR since none of the Westernlands nobility would ever follow a little monster like Tyrion who broke one of the most sacrid laws Westeros has and falsly killed his king as well. Some say Danny will give him CR but frankly the lords of the West would never allow it unless held at dragon fire which is a very bad thing to do politically  and there would be many revolts and plots to have Tyrion murdered at first chance. 

Remember Varys' riddle about power. Tyrion would have very little issue ruling the rock 

[Only 89 selfies today]

Tyrion had a tough road to begin with.  Take away kinslaying and it's still a scandal to have him lord over the richest of the seven kingdoms.  He will need full military support from Dany if he is to ever take CR and there will be many people unhappy with a tiny kinslayer ruling over the Westerlands.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

True, for some he is an abomination and a kinslayer. But to others he is a wise head and the defender of KL. And back home maybe they call him the King of the sewers! 

I don't think Tyrion has done enough to end his political career in Westeros just yet. And what's more, he hasn't ran out of opportunities to redeem himself. I think that with all this war and famine, Westeros will legitimately need good rulers. And Tyrion's return will be a timely one. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Well he's certainly representing himself as the "rightful Lord of Casterly Rock" since he has been signing away gold and lands to the Second Sons that would belong to the person who holds that title.

Without a claim to the Rock he is just a fugitive in a foreign land with nothing but his wits and skills at arms to rely on. So I can see him continuing to use the title of rightful lord of CR in the future if it can help his situation. 

[Joy Hill]

People were already pissed at Tyrion for bringing the mountain clans in KL. If he actually invades Westeros accompanied by dragons, dothraki, sellswords, unsullied, ironborn and rhllor fanatics, he'll be considered a monster. He might be able to keep the Westerlands subdued if he inspires enough fear, but I doubt he will be loved.

[Seams]

The books left us at a major turning point in Tyrion's character development. I don't know whether he will spiral into being a villain or whether he will be redeemed. These are the factors and clues I am watching:

1. Penny. If you look closely at some of the dialogue, Penny has agreed to be the "father" that Tywin never was for Tyrion, teaching him to survive as a dwarf by using his wits. But she is a mummer and she is bitter about the slaughter of dwarfs. We have already seen her teaching Tyrion new "games" and making up her own rules for cyvasse (elephants flying), helping him to put on armor (first the wooden armor as part of the jousting act), telling him how great it is to travel and entertain people. When they are carrying buckets of water, she repeatedly tells Tyrion they need to go one way and he insists that they need to go another way. Is this a sign that Penny would have put Tyrion on the right track but he chose the wrong way? Or was Penny's path the wrong way - back to slavery and disease - while Tyrion's was the right way?

2. Jaime. The author presented Jaime as a complete and total jerk - stabbing the king he was sworn to protect, undermining the new king by fathering the queen's children through incest, pushing Bran Stark out a window. Then we saw him gradually redeemed through his sense of honor about the oath to Lady Stark, his bond with Brienne, his apparent recognition of Cersei's shortcomings, his determination to recover from the maiming of his arm, his freeing Tyrion from a death sentence, his just dealings with the lords in the riverlands regarding hostages and reparations. I worry that this gradual redemption for Jaime may reflect an opposite path for Tyrion. Tyrion seemed to be honorable (except for his treatment of Tysha), wise, hardworking, etc. but he has become bitter, maimed, violent, desperate, vengeful.

3. Mushrooms. This is on my list of symbols to sort out. I had a bit of an epiphany when I realized that there was a pun on "champion" and "champignon," the French word for mushroom. Tyrion's champions have been Bronn (successful) and Prince Oberyn (not successful). When Illyrio offered mushrooms to Tyrion, Tyrion suspected they were poisoned but they looked really tasty and he wanted to eat them but decided not to. Illyrio then ate some of them and appeared to suffer no ill effects. We know from the Melisandre / Maester Cressen scene that some "people" can ingest poison and live while others cannot, so we can't be sure that Tyrion would have lived if he ate the mushrooms - the author's point might be that, just like with champions, you take a gamble when you put your life in their hands.

But Tyrion found some other mushrooms at Illyrio's property and hid them in his boot. He says he used some of them to poison the servant called Nurse who kept an eye on the slaves considered to be "treasures". It's possible that Tyrion's mushrooms were not poisonous, and that Nurse would have died of the disease raging through the camp. Or maybe Nurse didn't die, and Tyrion just assumed his mushrooms had done the trick.

The word "nurse" is usually associated with a wet nurse in ASOIAF, and we have seen or heard about wet nurses in connection with babies whose mothers died tragically. Why would the author name this character "Nurse," and why would he have Tyrion kill (or intend to kill) Nurse? This is a mystery that could hold a clue to other aspects of the plot. Is the author telling us that Nurse was to Tyrion as Melisandre is to Stannis, and that she should be poisoned to stop the damage being inflicted on a major character? Or is Nurse like Septa Mordane, killed by Joffrey? (I realize Mordane was not really a wet nurse, but she did oversee "treasures" by being in charge of the Stark girls at Winterfell.) Does the Tyrion / Nurse dynamic foreshadow something about Gilly's fate? She is the most fully developed wet nurse character in the books so far.

[A new thought: there could also be a pun on "nurse" and "runes". Runes are another mysterious symbol in the books.]

Maybe there will be more mushroom-related activity in Tyrion's arc in TWoW and the meaning of the mushroom symbol will become clearer.

[Angel Eyes]

16 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Tyrion had a tough road to begin with.  Take away kinslaying and it's still a scandal to have him lord over the richest of the seven kingdoms.  He will need full military support from Dany if he is to ever take CR and there will be many people unhappy with a tiny kinslayer ruling over the Westerlands.

His road was tough just by being born.

[The Sunland Lord]

@Seams I enjoyed reading. 

[Darth Sidious]

There is a way out of kinslaying.  It's called A + J = T.  That makes him a royal bastard but at least he won't be a kinslayer.  

House Lannister is full of kingslayers and kinslayers.  Jaime killed Aerys.  Cersei and Lancel killed Robert.  Tyrion killed Tywin and in the public eye he killed Joffrey.  What a family!  

[Angel Eyes]

6 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

There is a way out of kinslaying.  It's called A + J = T.  That makes him a royal bastard but at least he won't be a kinslayer.  

House Lannister is full of kingslayers and kinslayers.  Jaime killed Aerys.  Cersei and Lancel killed Robert.  Tyrion killed Tywin and in the public eye he killed Joffrey.  What a family!  

They didn’t kill him, the boar did.

[The Mountain that Cries]

7 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

There is a way out of kinslaying.  It's called A + J = T.  That makes him a royal bastard but at least he won't be a kinslayer.  

House Lannister is full of kingslayers and kinslayers.  Jaime killed Aerys.  Cersei and Lancel killed Robert.  Tyrion killed Tywin and in the public eye he killed Joffrey.  What a family!  

Even if A + J = T  was real Tryion is still a kinslayer for killing Tywin. Tywin marries his cousin. So that would make Tywin his uncle. So still kinslayer. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On December 25, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Stormking902 said:

I enjoy Tyrion Lannisters character and was rooting for him to succeed in becomming Tywins heir to CR since Jamie is in the KG and I always pictured Cersie dieing at some point along with her children leaving Tyrion who would get CR and be respected by his bannerman because of some great deed he accomished. 

Then out of no where Tyrions murders his lord father and IMO his chance of ever holding and keeping CR since none of the Westernlands nobility would ever follow a little monster like Tyrion who broke one of the most sacrid laws Westeros has and falsly killed his king as well. Some say Danny will give him CR but frankly the lords of the West would never allow it unless held at dragon fire which is a very bad thing to do politically  and there would be many revolts and plots to have Tyrion murdered at first chance. 

If Dany takes Tyrion in odds are the fact he is heir to CR and next in line to be the warden of west by line of succession would play a major factor in her decision to take Tyrion under her wing. Popular or not, he's going to be seated there if Dany takes throne because it'd benifits her.

[Stormking902]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If Dany takes Tyrion in odds are the fact he is heir to CR and next in line to be the warden of west by line of succession would play a major factor in her decision to take Tyrion under her wing. Popular or not, he's going to be seated there if Dany takes throne because it'd benifits her.

Does it benifit her tho? Placing a little monster like Tyrion as heir to CR is a horrible idea someone who would murder there lord father which is a fact, and as far as the public is concerned his nephew AND king then joins a foreign invader who has dragons and dothraki, and unsullied warriors who attacked Westeros in full force. This IMO is a horrible move politically it shows Danny cares nothing about Westerosi most sacred laws (Regicide, Kinslaying) and doesnt mind placing a man of that calibur as a great lord of the richest kingdom, she would litterally have to force the Westerlands lords by threat of burning them and there keep to dust for it to work smoothly and then all the lords hate you and Tyrion its a lose lose situation all to keep lil Tyrion happy. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Does it benifit her tho? Placing a little monster like Tyrion as heir to CR is a horrible idea someone who would murder there lord father which is a fact, and as far as the public is concerned his nephew AND king then joins a foreign invader who has dragons and dothraki, and unsullied warriors who attacked Westeros in full force. This IMO is a horrible move politically it shows Danny cares nothing about Westerosi most sacred laws (Regicide, Kinslaying) and doesnt mind placing a man of that calibur as a great lord of the richest kingdom, she would litterally have to force the Westerlands lords by threat of burning them and there keep to dust for it to work smoothly and then all the lords hate you and Tyrion its a lose lose situation all to keep lil Tyrion happy. 

Meh, there are pros and cons.  Yes Tyrion appointment may be popular but he's the only lanister who'd be utterly indedted to her and utterly dependent upon her. I don't know how the westerland lords would react to it but assuming Dany has already conquered the country they probably would have realized by then they couldn't possibly face her in open battle. 

[Traverys]

I like to think GRRM will strike a balance between poetic deaths and disappointing survivals.

For example, Cersei clearly inherited some traits from Margaret of Anjour, a major player in the War of the Roses. Joffrey is clearly based on her son as well. Though their personalities align more than their histories, Margaret was very unpopular at the end, and could have easily been put to death for her "crimes." She defied gender constraints and dominated her husband (and took over for him while he was catatonic), and is generally held responsible for the executions of some important figures (the Duke of York, his son Edmund, and Richard Neville). a few important figures that were her opponents. Instead of being executed upon her capture and the death of her only son, she was ransomed to France where she died a poor relation of the king.

Just food for thought. People who deserve to die (at least relative to the executions of other people for far lesser "crimes") don't always get the justice one may think they deserve.

What this means for Tyrion? There may be hope for him yet. We see Jaime on an arc of redemption that may very well end with his death. One could argue that Jaime's crimes are greater than Tyrions, but while Tyrion has mixed feelings (at best) Jaime is fairly resolved to regret and (try to) atone for his past actions.

After I was a little horrified by how much I wanted Joffrey to die... and then GRRM punished me for that by making his death pitiable, I think back to the Gandalf quote:

Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 2:26 PM, Stormking902 said:

I enjoy Tyrion Lannisters character and was rooting for him to succeed in becomming Tywins heir to CR since Jamie is in the KG and I always pictured Cersie dieing at some point along with her children leaving Tyrion who would get CR and be respected by his bannerman because of some great deed he accomished. 

Then out of no where Tyrions murders his lord father and IMO his chance of ever holding and keeping CR since none of the Westernlands nobility would ever follow a little monster like Tyrion who broke one of the most sacrid laws Westeros has and falsly killed his king as well. Some say Danny will give him CR but frankly the lords of the West would never allow it unless held at dragon fire which is a very bad thing to do politically  and there would be many revolts and plots to have Tyrion murdered at first chance. 

If Danaerys becomes queen, she can simply declare Tyrion innocent of the crime of kinslaying -- that it was all a lie cooked up by the evil Cersei and her equally evil brother Jaime, both of whom will either be dead or in exile. With the CR bannermen facing a choice of either bending the knee to Dany, and thus accepting her judgement on such matters, or getting roasted by dragonfire, they will accept Tyrion readily enough -- especially if he does something sensible, like permanently forgiving their debts or bestowing additional lands and honors upon them.