Lord Varys Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Fire Eater, ADwD established that no dragonrider ever rode two dragons (Tyrion mentioned as much back then). That has been established lore since before TPatQ, and is also mentioned in there, at least sort of, when Joffrey is rejected by Syrax. He was not only rejected because Syrax had a rider, but because Joffrey was also a dragonrider bound to another dragon. If dragons could not detect that, then nothing would prevent a dragonrider from claiming any number of dragons after their dragon was dead, or while the dragon was far away. By the way, even if a dragonrider could ride more than one dragon in his life, Aegon II is in no shape whatsoever to claim or ride a dragon. He cannot even walk. And Gyldayn has said that he will spent the rest of his life in great pain. TPatQ also mentions that Aegon III never flew again after Stormcloud died. That's most likely because he his one-time flight on his own dragon was enough to claim that dragon, and thus prevented him from bonding with another dragon in the future. The Targaryens still had dragons after the Dance, we know as much. And the last dragons only hatched and died during the final year of the reign of Aegon III (else Ser Arlan of Pennytree could not have seen the last dragon shortly before her death). The story about Aegon's fear of dragons may be somewhat exaggerated since he was one of the kings who tried to hatch the remaining eggs all the same... He was the one who called the nine mages to Westeros, and he may have even be killed during that experiment. He died at the age of 37, and I don't think he was assassinated or died in battle... Ran has given some clues to the Gerardys story. That's 'secret history' Gyldayn may not have even mentioned in the longer version of his account (although Ran has said that GRRM has not forgotten Gerardys, so we might get something about this in the world book). If Varys is right in ASoS and Gerardys was really fed to the dragon of the second Aegon, than this dragon must have been Sunfyre. And then Gerardys was either killed before Aegon and Sunfyre were separated or after Aegon and Sunfyre were reunited. The latter makes little sense. Sunfyre was a dying ruin after Aegon took Dragonstone, and a Grand Maester replacement for Orwyle would never have been sent to Dragonstone but to King's Landing. And considering that the Hightowers - and thus the Citadel - were in the Green camp they would have never sent a Grand Maester to the capital while it was under the control of Queen Rhaenyra. It's possible that Gerardys was some sort of 'self-styled' or 'self-proclaimed Grand Maester' in the sense that either Rhaenyra or Aegon named a new Grand Maester after Orwyle's death, but we don't even know whether Orwyle died. If Orwyle was Daemon's friend on the Green Council - and this seems to make the most sense right now - it's very likely that he was reinstated after Rhaenyra took the city. Sure, Orwyle could have fallen after Daemon's death, but no Gerardys (or Maester) is mentioned as Rhaenyra's companion on her way back to Dragonstone. If Gerardys was executed with/shortly after Rhaenyra this could have been mentioned in the story. Another possibility is that something was changed in the process of editing the story. For instance, if Orwyle was friendly to the Blacks he could have stayed on Dragonstone after he brought Aegon's terms to Rhaenyra. Or he could have been fallen after the Blood and Cheese incident. Aegon surely would have removed all possible Black traitors from positions of power. During such a time a replacement Grand Maester could have been installed. And the time shortly before Aegon's accident with him drinking and raging all the time would also be the best time for him to start the habit of feeding traitors to Sunfyre... On the Cannibal: I don't see any connection between him and Varys. Especially since I consider Varys words about the death of Princess Rhaenys one of the few times he actually is sincerely sad and feels regret (i.e. if he did save Aegon, Rhaenys' death is on his hands since he could have saved her as well as Aegon).I'm not sure if he is ever claimed by a rider. He could be hunted down during the time Regency of Aegon III, he could be killed by a volcanic eruption, or he could simply disappear. On the Horn stuff: We would have known by now if the Targaryens had ever used such a device. If Aegon/Aenys/Maegor had such a thing, and if only Jaehaerys had destroyed it (if it would not have been destroyed it would have been there during the Dance), people would have remembered it during the Dance (and would have cursed Jaehaerys for his folly). That said, I always suspected that Dragonbinder is one of the magical instruments the first Valyrians to bond with the wild dragons they encountered. If this thing is sort of refined magical tool to bind a dragon and his line to a human bloodline, then this would explain pretty much: 1. The practice of Valyrian and subsequent Targaryen incest. It was done to ensure that the family dragons would always respond to the attempts of the family members to claim them (and not to other Valyrians). 2. Why the Targaryens in Westeros could claim there dragons without actively practicing magic, skin-changing, or using a horn like Dragonbinder. 3. Assuming that Dany's three dragon eggs are Targaryen dragon eggs rather than some old dragon eggs from the Shadowlands unconnected to the Targaryen dragons, it could also explain how and why a connection formed between Dany and the dragon eggs, eventually leading to her successful attempt of hatching them. If 3. is the case, then Victarion's attempt to use his blood on Dragonbinder to bind Dany's dragon to himself may backfire on him. I very much doubt that Dragonbinder can overwrite the spell if a horn like Dragonbinder once bound Rhaegal and Viserion's ancestors to House Targaryen. I'd expect that Rhaegal and Viserion go mad and run amok if such an attempt is made. In the ensuing chaos one of the dragons could eventually bond with Tyrion (perhaps an enemy takeover via Dragonbinder causes a dragon to search out the nearest 'dragon-free' human being with the blood line he is attuned to?), whereas the other could fly off, to eventually end up with Euron or Aegon. If simply nothing happens after the horn is blown, it may be that the guys decide to try it again with Targaryen blood if they have the chance. It will be interesting to see whether Tyrion would comply to smear his blood on the horn after Selmy reveals that he is Aerys' son. He would know that 2-3 men would have to die in this second attempt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Fire Eater, ADwD established that no dragonrider ever rode two dragons (Tyrion mentioned as much back then). That has been established lore since before TPatQ, and is also mentioned in there, at least sort of, when Joffrey is rejected by Syrax. He was not only rejected because Syrax had a rider, but because Joffrey was also a dragonrider bound to another dragon. If dragons could not detect that, then nothing would prevent a dragonrider from claiming any number of dragons after their dragon was dead, or while the dragon was far away. Dany said that, and it was no dragonrider rode two dragons at the same time. If a dragon can have a different rider after the first one dies, then a rider can likely get a different dragon after his dragon dies. As to Joffrey, he was bonded to another dragon who at that point was probably still alive, and Syrax was bonded to a living rider. By the way, even if a dragonrider could ride more than one dragon in his life, Aegon II is in no shape whatsoever to claim or ride a dragon. He cannot even walk. And Gyldayn has said that he will spent the rest of his life in great pain. TPatQ also mentions that Aegon III never flew again after Stormcloud died. That's because all the other dragons on Dragonstone had riders, and the only ones left were the Cannibal, which Rhaenyra wouldn't allow Aegon to take the risk, and Grey Ghost which was hardly ever seen by men. It's possible that Gerardys was some sort of 'self-styled' or 'self-proclaimed Grand Maester' in the sense that either Rhaenyra or Aegon named a new Grand Maester after Orwyle's death, but we don't even know whether Orwyle died. If Orwyle was Daemon's friend on the Green Council - and this seems to make the most sense right now - it's very likely that he was reinstated after Rhaenyra took the city. Sure, Orwyle could have fallen after Daemon's death, but no Gerardys (or Maester) is mentioned as Rhaenyra's companion on her way back to Dragonstone. If Gerardys was executed with/shortly after Rhaenyra this could have been mentioned in the story.I didn't state anywhere that Aegon was going to stay on Dragonstone for the rest of his life. He would eventually have to go back to KL. I'm not sure if he is ever claimed by a rider. He could be hunted down during the time Regency of Aegon III, he could be killed by a volcanic eruption, or he could simply disappear.Especially since I consider Varys words about the death of Princess Rhaenys one of the few times he actually is sincerely sad and feels regret (i.e. if he did save Aegon, Rhaenys' death is on his hands since he could have saved her as well as Aegon). Dragonstone has had no history of erupting, and Varys is a master mummer and can fake emotions, and the Aegon story is a lie. Red crabs and spider crabs and conquerors. I won't eat spider crab, except in sister's stew. Makes feel half a cannibal. With the red crab referring to Stannis and the conqueror to Dany, I think the spider crab refers to Aegon, the Spiders' king, so a cannibal reference for Varys. The Cannibal is also a black dragon, the sigil of House Blackfyre. Also, I think the horn only binds the dragon to the rider not bloodlines. I don't think we have anything to suggest that. Euron and Aegon are far away in Westeros across the Narrow Sea, a long journey for a dragon. Even then, Euron lost his dragonhorn, and has nothing with which to bind a dragon to him. If simply nothing happens after the horn is blown, it may be that the guys decide to try it again with Targaryen blood if they have the chance. It will be interesting to see whether Tyrion would comply to smear his blood on the horn after Selmy reveals that he is Aerys' son. He would know that 2-3 men would have to die in this second attempt...Tyrion is not Aerys's son, and there is no evidence to support A+J=T. If Tyrion does have Targaryen blood it is likely that Ossifer Plumm's wife had children that married into Western houses that in turned married into the main branch of House Lannister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucky Thompson Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Both sides still had dragons, and it is possible that the Ironmen avoided making raids as they knew what dragons could do after what happened to Black Harren and his sons. Yeah, it could be fear, but wouldn't disobeying a royal command lead to the same outcome? They would be fried in any case, why not raid and pillage first? In any case, sitting out the war didn't sound very much like the Greyjoys, not a Balon-ish thing to do at all, but Balon did sit out Robert's Rebellion, so they might have their reasons for doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Yeah, it could be fear, but wouldn't disobeying a royal command lead to the same outcome? They would be fried in any case, why not raid and pillage first? In any case, sitting out the war didn't sound very much like the Greyjoys, not a Balon-ish thing to do at all, but Balon did sit out Robert's Rebellion, so they might have their reasons for doing so. Sitting out the war and waiting to attack the target when it is weakest is what Greyjoys did in the Wot5K. So they may have followed a similar strategy back then. However, the two sides were not weak enough for them to strike as far as we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Well, I stand corrected. It was indeed Dany and not Tyrion who spoke about the dragonrider thing in ADwD: Dany to Quentyn:“One of them. All I know of dragons is what my brother told me when I was a girl, and some I read in books, but it is said that even Aegon the Conqueror never dared mount Vhagar or Meraxes, nor did his sisters ride Balerion the Black Dread. Dragons live longer than men, some for hundreds of years, so Balerion had other riders after Aegon died … but no rider ever flew two dragons.” Dany does imply that no dragonrider ever rode two dragons, and it's not limited to 'at the same time'. That may not be the case if we only had this source, but fortunately we do know that Maegor did not claim a dragon in his youth but only after his father died (then he did claim Balerion). We also know, as I've said, that Aegon III had no dragon after Stormcloud's death (although the Targaryens did have other hatchlings after the Dance), and Viserys I also was without dragon upon his death. The latter strongly implies that his dragen predeceased him. If it was possible for a dragonrider to claim another dragon, Viserys could easily have done so. Depending on the time of his dragon's death Dreamfyre, Vhagar, Seasmoke, Vermithor, Silverwing, and all the wild dragons would have been available, not counting the hatchlings any of which could also have been claimed by the dragonless king. Thus we can also conclude, I think, that Joffrey was rejected by Syrax not only because he had a rider of his own, but also because Syrax was bound to living Rhaenyra. As to Aegon II: TPatQ tells us the death date of Sunfyre. He died before Aegon II returned to KL, thus it would be impossible for him to feed Gerardys to his dragon after he was restored to the Iron Throne. In fact, it seems as if Aegon II is not even restored for half a year. Rhaenyra dies in the tenth moon of 130, Sunfyre in the twelfth moon (thus there is a small time window for Aegon II to feed Gerardys to Sunfyre, but that would mean that Gerardys has to be on Dragonstone); if we assume that Ser Perkin has seated 'King Trystane' on the Iron Throne after Rhaenyra left, Aegon II may actually meet some difficulties when he tries to retake KL without a dragon. On the Cannibal: I do not consider a volcanic eruption all that likely. It's much more likely that people killed during the Regency era. That would have been a troubled time, and he may have started to cause some trouble to the people living on Dragonstone. It's just as likely that he was claimed during the remainder of the Dance, or afterwards. Ran has confirmed that Silverwing survives the Dance, so she and the Cannibal most likely go not down in fight against each other. On Euron/Victarion: If Dragonbinder binds a dragon (or more than one) to a single person then this fact would contradict the Targaryen history of one rider rides only one dragon in his life. It could establish Victarion (or whoever smears his blood on that horn) as master of all the three dragon of Daenerys. And I don't think that Martin intends for them to remain under the control of one person.More importantly, I very much doubt that Euron does not know how the horn is supposed to work. Which means that, assuming that Moqorro has not swindled Victarion, Euron has already smeared his blood on the horn, which could mean that the dragons would be under his control, not Victarion's. I think it could be a workable theory to assume that horns like Dragonbinder are the beginning of the power the Dragonlords of Valyria had over their dragons. Dragonbinder does appear to be a very old relic, not something that was used on a regular basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Lots of talk here about Targs not being able to claim a 2nd dragon after their first dies. I have to say it seems to me like Queen Rhaenya would know better than Danaerys, and after fleeing KL after her dragon died Rhaenya said she was heading back to Dragonstone to claim another dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crow's Third Eye Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I thought she said to hatch more dragons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 They did not have the ability to hatch dragons at will. Remember the little girl carrying her egg with her everywhere constantly praying it will hatch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Rhaenyra said she needed more dragons. That doesn't mean that she intended to ride them herself. Aegon was still with her, and she may have thought that he could claim another dragon (it's not fully confirmed that he could not claim another dragon), Baela and Moondancer were still there, and she could have new riders for additional dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 As to whether a dragonlord can ride another Drago after the dragonlord's dragon dies, we don't have any direct evidence of that happening, right--just possibilities? We should keep in mind that Maegor never bonded with a dragon until he rode Balerion. He claimed none were worthy of him but he might have been waiting for Argon to die if he believed that he would never be able to ride Balerion if he rode another dragon first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Rhaenyra said she needed more dragons. That doesn't mean that she intended to ride them herself. Aegon was still with her, and she may have thought that he could claim another dragon (it's not fully confirmed that he could not claim another dragon), Baela and Moondancer were still there, and she could have new riders for additional dragons. Rhaenyra didn't let Joffrey do anything and barely let her older sons do anything either, I find it very unlikely that she meant for her 2 youngest children to fight the rest of the war from dragonback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Obviously Rhaenyra did not intend for Aegon to ride into battle on dragonback at once. I guess she rather believed she could hole up on Dragonstone for the time being, and let the Black armies on the mainland do the work for her. A new dragon would have been a powerful symbol, nothing that could have been used as a weapon at once. That is, Baela and Moondancer could have been used. If another dragon hatched during the Dance it must have been from one of Rhaena's eggs. If it hatched in the second half of 129, it could have been big enough to carry her into the battle in 131. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Obviously Rhaenyra did not intend for Aegon to ride into battle on dragonback at once. I guess she rather believed she could hole up on Dragonstone for the time being, and let the Black armies on the mainland do the work for her. A new dragon would have been a powerful symbol, nothing that could have been used as a weapon at once. That is, Baela and Moondancer could have been used. If another dragon hatched during the Dance it must have been from one of Rhaena's eggs. If it hatched in the second half of 129, it could have been big enough to carry her into the battle in 131. We will probably never know her intention, it's entirely possible that having always been somewhat unhinged she was even crazier now and was simply a Targ muttering about dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History of Westeros Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 In general, on the accuracy of tPaTQ it should be remembered that: Gyldayn used "The Dance of the Dragons: A True Telling" as his main source for writing it. That book was written by Grand Maester Munkun. Grand Maester Munkun is the bumbler who thought Ser Byron Swann tried to kill Vhagar, and wrote that in said book. (as in, the scene where Tyrion and Halfmaester compared dragon knowledge, and Tyrion points out that Munkun made an obvious mistake). On top of all the editing of tPaTQ, we have that. I think GRRM did this on purpose, as he's repeatedly used the trope that history is not accurate, nor meant to be remembered or interpreted perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karmarni Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 In general, on the accuracy of tPaTQ it should be remembered that: Gyldayn used "The Dance of the Dragons: A True Telling" as his main source for writing it. That book was written by Grand Maester Munkun. Grand Maester Munkun is the bumbler who thought Ser Byron Swann tried to kill Vhagar, and wrote that in said book. (as in, the scene where Tyrion and Halfmaester compared dragon knowledge, and Tyrion points out that Munkun made an obvious mistake). On top of all the editing of tPaTQ, we have that. I think GRRM did this on purpose, as he's repeatedly used the trope that history is not accurate, nor meant to be remembered or interpreted perfectly. Good point. The master storyteller's option clause for "don't count on the past, the future will be a little different." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceChampion Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 As to whether a dragonlord can ride another Drago after the dragonlord's dragon dies, we don't have any direct evidence of that happening, right--just possibilities? We should keep in mind that Maegor never bonded with a dragon until he rode Balerion. He claimed none were worthy of him but he might have been waiting for Argon to die if he believed that he would never be able to ride Balerion if he rode another dragon first. That's seems to me very likely. Maegor had a big ego, no dragon but the biggest would have been good enough for him. So he waited for Aegon I to pass on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 That's seems to me very likely. Maegor had a big ego, no dragon but the biggest would have been good enough for him. So he waited for Aegon I to pass on. Its also worth noting that whatever other dragons had been born by that time were all relatively newborn, as they were all born after the conquest. They must have seemed pretty small compared to any of the original 3, let alone Belarion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Sitting out the war and waiting to attack the target when it is weakest is what Greyjoys did in the Wot5K. So they may have followed a similar strategy back then. However, the two sides were not weak enough for them to strike as far as we know. That isn't true. The Greyjoys attacked the North in early mid-war or mid-war, well before the Blackwater which was the decisive turning point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 That isn't true. The Greyjoys attacked the North in early mid-war or mid-war, well before the Blackwater which was the decisive turning point. Well the Starks didn't have any dragons, and their army was gone. Its not exactly the same but its pretty similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Well the Starks didn't have any dragons, and their army was gone. Its not exactly the same but its pretty similar. That's irrelevant. The text I quoted said pretty much that the Greyjous sat out the war to attack the weakest target, and I have pointed out that it isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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