Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 But I think its ironic that if she had trouble with Ned, Brandon likely would have made her miserable. Punishing a child for the sins of the father is just low, particularly when they didn't even know each other at the time of his misstep.Even if she and Ned had known each other well, there is still no reason to punish a child for Neds misstep. But it is an understandable reaction though. Add the stigma bastards have (born out of lust), and you've got yourself the makings of hating the child that came forth from the union. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 :agree:And it's also the reason why Jon Snow is so introverted and shy. Catelyn hated him because he reminded her of the "unfaithfulness" of Eddard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Even if she and Ned had known each other well, there is still no reason to punish a child for Neds misstep. But it is an understandable reaction though. Add the stigma bastards have (born out of lust), and you've got yourself the makings of hating the child that came forth from the union. :) No, I agree, and don't get me wrong, I don't hate Cat, but you see she had almost the same affect on Arya as well, either because she wasn't the proper lady, or that she didn't care for her particular Stark appearance. I always detected a bit of vanity in her, and feel she seemed to favor the children who looked most like her, which I think was all of them with the exception of Arya. And I don't blame her for the internal struggles of what she might have felt every time she looked at Jon, but she could have disciplined herself outwardly. I say if she is going to take it out on anyone, take it out on Ned because he was the "guilty" one, and try to find a place in her life for this outcast child. Had everything worked out and all lived, she might have rued the day she treated him so poorly. Her "unCatness" somehow always made me think she had manifested the outward ugliness that was reflected in her heart, so more of the symbolism on corruption and it's affects beyond the obvious nature of the circumstances of how she came to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Even if she and Ned had known each other well, there is still no reason to punish a child for Neds misstep. But it is an understandable reaction though. Add the stigma bastards have (born out of lust), and you've got yourself the makings of hating the child that came forth from the union. :) Ah, but punishing the innocent (children) is a strong theme in the books. Something almost everyone does. The only examples of adult POVs that don't (that I can think of off the top of my head) are Ned, Tyrion, and Brienne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Firstly, what I wrote is an "on present evidence" claim: it is still possible that our author will find a way to change the picture to point to Jon (or perhaps even Aegon, tho' that seems implausible at present). He did after all insert Melisandre's vision to muddy the waters and contrast with Benerro and Moqorro. And he did not put in anything about either reading their flames to look for confirmation of their identification of Daenerys as the promised one of the prophecy. Further if Feast and Dance had been merged in the way that he intended, I would not be surprised if he had put Aemon's "The dragons prove it" in a chapter near the Melisandre chapter. The six year gap between the two books may have contributed to a misleading impression of what he intended to present. That is to say GRRM has not made the matter as cut and dried as you write.One more point: Aemon probably knew about the dragon dreams we are told about in "The Hedge Knight"; and he certainly knew what a metaphorical dragon is: he was one after all, and he knew quite a few of them. Yet it is not until he has word of real ones that he is prepared to point to someone as fulfilling the prophecy. (And it also seems to matter for him that Dany was born on Dragonstone when he says that she was born amidst salt and smoke. A few tears and smoke from a fire or even "smoke" from a the contact of the cold with fresh wounds would probably not have counted for him).I am not saying that Aemon's statements should be taken as definitive, but I am arguing that your idea that Aemon would have changed his mind if he had known that Jon was Rhaegar's son is a non-starter. (And ditto for Aegon, even if he had accepted the latter's claim to be Rhaegar's son.)Let's look at text: Melisandre: Stannis is AA. WrongRhaegar: Aegon is AA. WrongWylla is Jon's mother. WrongThe fisherman's daughter is Jon's mother. WrongRhaegar: I am AA. WrongAemon: Daenerys is tPtwP (same as AA, per GRRM). What do you think? It must be wrong, too. Every time we are told something directly int he story, it is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Let's look at text: Melisandre: Stannis is AA. WrongRhaegar: Aegon is AA. WrongWylla is Jon's mother. WrongThe fisherman's daughter is Jon's mother. WrongRhaegar: I am AA. WrongAemon: Daenerys is tPtwP (same as AA, per GRRM). What do you think? It must be wrong, too. Every time we are told something directly int he story, it is wrong.Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayate Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I don't remember Rhaegar pretending Aegon is AA (but he might have). If he was wrong about him/Aegon, he was right about Jon when he planned the alliance of Ice & Fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I don't remember Rhaegar pretending Aegon is AA (but he might have). If he was wrong about him/Aegon, he was right about Jon when he planned the alliance of Ice & Fire. Rhaegar referring to Aegon, "His is the song of ice and fire." Aemon confirms it (offhand) when he talks to Sam about Rhaegar thinking himself to be tPtwP, and then Aegon as tPtwP. Aemon cites the reasons, at Summerhall the smoke and tears, and Aegon the bleeding star at his conception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disputatious Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Exactly!Exactly not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disputatious Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Let's look at text: Melisandre: Stannis is AA. WrongRhaegar: Aegon is AA. WrongWylla is Jon's mother. WrongThe fisherman's daughter is Jon's mother. WrongRhaegar: I am AA. WrongAemon: Daenerys is tPtwP (same as AA, per GRRM). What do you think? It must be wrong, too. Every time we are told something directly int he story, it is wrong.It should not surprise you that I find this reasoning unconvincing and indeed without merit. For one thing neither Stannis and Melisandre, nor Rhaegar and son actually hatched any dragons and nevermind doing so under a bleeding star and surviving a walk into a burning pyre in the process.As for Aegon we don't even know where he was born: if it was on Dragonstone that might have been a step in the right direction I suppose.It is interesting that having rejected Rhaegar's reasoning about he himself being born amidst salt and smoke you propose to reuse the same in the case of Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 It should not surprise you that I find this reasoning unconvincing and indeed without merit. For one thing neither Stannis and Melisandre, nor Rhaegar and son actually hatched any dragons and nevermind doing so under a bleeding star and surviving a walk into a burning pyre in the process.As for Aegon we don't even know where he was born: if it was on Dragonstone that might have been a step in the right direction I suppose.It is interesting that having rejected Rhaegar's reasoning about he himself being born amidst salt and smoke you propose to reuse the same in the case of Jon.MotnLion said that people that says that the PTwP is ______ usually are wrong. They are red herrings, and Jon might be the one because people in the books don't point to him and say he's the chosen one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 It should not surprise you that I find this reasoning unconvincing and indeed without merit. For one thing neither Stannis and Melisandre, nor Rhaegar and son actually hatched any dragons and nevermind doing so under a bleeding star and surviving a walk into a burning pyre in the process.As for Aegon we don't even know where he was born: if it was on Dragonstone that might have been a step in the right direction I suppose.It is interesting that having rejected Rhaegar's reasoning about he himself being born amidst salt and smoke you propose to reuse the same in the case of Jon.Since you are convinced of your ideas, why do you visit this thread? But, I will entertain you, for a moment. The "red streaked sky" when Ned arrived at the tower. A dragon (Targaryen) from the stone tower. Smoke and salt may also be present, but we will need to wait for GRRM's narrative of that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Since you are convinced of your ideas, why do you visit this thread? But, I will entertain you, for a moment. The "red streaked sky" when Ned arrived at the tower. A dragon (Targaryen) from the stone tower. Smoke and salt may also be present, but we will need to wait for GRRM's narrative of that day. You make a good point. It's very possible that the circumstances of Jon's birth do fit the parameters (they also fit "two kings to wake the dragon"), but GRRM is holding these specifics out on us because revealing them would give it away. What some people see as a "slam dunk" regarding Dany, I see as a very obvious red herring and misdirection. If she fulfilled the checklist that well, why did we NEED Aemon to confirm it? And the literal dragons point doesn't mean that much when past instances of dragon visions HAVE come to pass metaphorically. Everything about it screams "the lady doth protest too much" on GRRM's part, not that Aemon correctly solved anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Also, and not to sound like a broken record, Aemon doesn't have all the information. He thinks Dany is the last Targaryen, so he tries to shoehorn the interpretation into her, so to speak; in his mind, she's the last hope for mankind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disputatious Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Since you are convinced of your ideas, why do you visit this thread? But, I will entertain you, for a moment. The "red streaked sky" when Ned arrived at the tower. A dragon (Targaryen) from the stone tower. Smoke and salt may also be present, but we will need to wait for GRRM's narrative of that day. On the first point, this thread is about whether Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and secondarily about what the implications of that might be for the story: it certainly does not follow from the correctness of the primary point, the which I think likely, that Jon must be AAR, and indeed on the face of it, there is no connection. The proposition that I said was without merit was the one about the connection between the assertion within the text that so-and-so is AAR and that person turning out not to be AAR applying to Dany's case. If that was not clear my apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Also, and not to sound like a broken record, Aemon doesn't have all the information. He thinks Dany is the last Targaryen, so he tries to shoehorn the interpretation into her, so to speak; in his mind, she's the last hope for mankind. Yes. And I think that Aemon came to his conclusion using the available information he had and what he presumed to be a necessary checklist of fulfillments, like hatching literal dragons. It's not unreasonable that he would arrive at that conclusion. But that does not mean that his conclusion is the correct one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alysanne™ Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 No, I agree, and don't get me wrong, I don't hate Cat, but you see she had almost the same affect on Arya as well, either because she wasn't the proper lady, or that she didn't care for her particular Stark appearance. I always detected a bit of vanity in her, and feel she seemed to favor the children who looked most like her, which I think was all of them with the exception of Arya. And I don't blame her for the internal struggles of what she might have felt every time she looked at Jon, but she could have disciplined herself outwardly. I say if she is going to take it out on anyone, take it out on Ned because he was the "guilty" one, and try to find a place in her life for this outcast child. Had everything worked out and all lived, she might have rued the day she treated him so poorly. Her "unCatness" somehow always made me think she had manifested the outward ugliness that was reflected in her heart, so more of the symbolism on corruption and it's affects beyond the obvious nature of the circumstances of how she came to be. There is no evidence in the text though that Cat liked her children with Tully looks. No evidence shows Cat didn't like Arya. On the second bolded part this isn't a requirement for her. Jon is not Cat's son so its not her responsibility to find a place for him. Yes it may be a nice thing to do, but its not her responsibility so I don't get why people hold this against Catelyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 There is no evidence in the text though that Cat liked her children with Tully looks. No evidence shows Cat didn't like Arya. On the second bolded part this isn't a requirement for her. Jon is not Cat's son so its not her responsibility to find a place for him. Yes it may be a nice thing to do, but its not her responsibility so I don't get why people hold this against Catelyn. Elio/Ran has talked about this one more than occasion; that Cat bore no responsibility for Jon. And that it was Ned who was defying convention by bringing his bastard home with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alysanne™ Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Elio/Ran has talked about this one more than occasion; that Cat bore no responsibility for Jon. And that it was Ned who was defying convention by bringing his bastard home with him. Yes I agree, Ned is the one that takes most of the blame in the Jon and Cat situation yet alot of people blame Cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winds of Winter blow cold Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Could someone post a link to GRRM saying that AA & TPTWP are the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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