alguien Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Up through episode 8 now, and I'm hooked. Every once in a while, they'll have moments of shitty writing (they can't write those Chicago scenes worth a damn--it's like listening to a middle-schooler try to recreate The Wire), but man, when the show is compelling, it is hard to stop binge-watching. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon AS Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 At first I was wary of the show because of the Wachowski involvement, then I started the first episode and about halfway through decided that I wasn't in the mood for a show that required me to pay close attention at the time. Finally got back to it this weekend, and while slow going early on by about episode three or four I'd connected to pretty much all of the characters enough to care what happened to them even without the overarching plot angle and got through the rest of the episodes in a matter of days. Really good, I hope the holdup on renewal is only down to ironing out contract details, not a real possibility of it not coming back. I wasn't all that interested in the gimmick of a mental link between 8 total strangers when first reading about it, but they really made those scenes where one of the cluster helps out another work. That's what gives the show, despite containing a lot of darkness, an optimistic feel which combines with the varied locations and beautiful cinematography to just make the viewing experience a joy. Sure, it all feeds into a relatively simple theme of "if we work together we can overcome", but damn it, it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 At first I was wary of the show because of the Wachowski involvement, then I started the first episode and about halfway through decided that I wasn't in the mood for a show that required me to pay close attention at the time. Finally got back to it this weekend, and while slow going early on by about episode three or four I'd connected to pretty much all of the characters enough to care what happened to them even without the overarching plot angle and got through the rest of the episodes in a matter of days. Really good, I hope the holdup on renewal is only down to ironing out contract details, not a real possibility of it not coming back. I wasn't all that interested in the gimmick of a mental link between 8 total strangers when first reading about it, but they really made those scenes where one of the cluster helps out another work. That's what gives the show, despite containing a lot of darkness, an optimistic feel which combines with the varied locations and beautiful cinematography to just make the viewing experience a joy. Sure, it all feeds into a relatively simple theme of "if we work together we can overcome", but damn it, it works. Yeah, I put off watching for a while for the exact same reason. The Washowski brothers seem to have the same problem JJ Abrahams has, it all starts hunky dory and fun and interesting, and then it all goes off the rails spectacularly. But I did start watching it a couple of nights ago, and I'm really enjoying it. I haven't watched all episodes yet but I find myself caring deeply for these characters, something that didn't happen at all with other stuff I watched recently, like TD, WP, and GoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Yeah, I put off watching for a while for the exact same reason. The Washowski brothers seem to have the same problem JJ Abrahams has, it all starts hunky dory and fun and interesting, and then it all goes off the rails spectacularly. That's where JMS comes in - the guy is a notorious planner for pretty much everything he does. Most of his works have arcs over seasons/multiple issues. So I'm confident he'll build on things. In a sense they are a really good match in terms of creativity - the Wachowskis make things look good and on the whole have a running theme of inclusion/alt spritituality in their works and JMS builds on his works so they usually improve throughout (as long as producers/editors don't screw with his work). The only danger I can see is if the show embraces the sci-fi elements too much but I think we'll be ok. I can see the show splitting so that some of the characters continue to have the soap opera "everyday" struggles while some of the others get more caught up in the sci-fi element. It's already looking fairly clear who those characters will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Yeah, I put off watching for a while for the exact same reason. The Washowski brothers seem to have the same problem JJ Abrahams has, it all starts hunky dory and fun and interesting, and then it all goes off the rails spectacularly. But I did start watching it a couple of nights ago, and I'm really enjoying it. I haven't watched all episodes yet but I find myself caring deeply for these characters, something that didn't happen at all with other stuff I watched recently, like TD, WP, and GoT. The Wachowskis are not brothers, they are a brother/sister duo. I find it really hard to believe you are ignorant of that in a thread about this show, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that it's that or just a slip based on old usage. Otherwise that's not acceptable here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 The Wachowskis are not brothers, they are a brother/sister duo. I find it really hard to believe you are ignorant of that in a thread about this show, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that it's that or just a slip based on old usage. Otherwise that's not acceptable here. I'm guessing it's a slip of the tongue given that's what they were known as during the height of their fame. I know it's caught me out on occasion but it's an easy fix of saying "wachowskis" as most people know who you mean. But they are brother and sister now. It's a shame they weren't always just labelled as the "wachowskis" as I'm sure it annoys them now too. I doubt anyone would get past episode 1 if they were so adamant on ignoring gender issues (unless they identify with Nomi's mum's struggle). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyoshi Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I think you broke it with the excellent analysis above! I'll respond properly after work but my hat's off to you with those stats. One quick thing about multiple interactions [spoiler] Don't forget the orgy! I put that down to being a primal thing so it's easier for them all to join in - especially when more than one of them are already having sex in their normal sphere of life. Could be interesting how that's one of the areas Lito shares. [/spoiler] Thanks. :) At least no one thinks I'm crazy...yet. The spreadsheet also suggest to me that certain pairs are more drawn to one another than others. Each pair is male-female, and two pairs are romantic: [spoiler]Will/Riley, Sun/Capheus, Wolfie/Kala and Nomi/Lito (more by default in the last case). Also, just like Will and Riley have shared their memories, I think Lito actually sees the shower incident I still refuse to watch. This would make him the first in the group to actually do that, surprisingly enough. I agree that Will and Riley are kind of like the "central" parents of the cluster.[/spoiler] My spectrum needs some revision; sexuality wasn't something I considered while making it. A lot of things, actually, I simply looked at who was the readiest to kill or do something questionable. But I wasn't factoring in stuff like [spoiler]Capheus being the one who actually kills the people killed by Sun and Riley while they help him. It's probably more complex than that, which indicates to me that the spectrum is also quite complex.[/spoiler] Kyoshi - that spreadsheet is awesome (it's worth saying twice). I think based on that we should maybe consider Will and Riley as the central "parents" and maybe put Nomi between Lito and Will. The sexuality thing possibly puts Lito and Nomi closer together although another order could be Lito, Riley, Will, Nomi as you could do the spectrum as a reflective thing (in terms of interaction stats anyhow). some of your spoiler points [spoiler] it is interesting how our "central characters" interact with each the most in the same way that the "edge" characters do. As you suggest it could be a need thing where extremes need each other for having emotions/attitudes the other lacks while Will and Riley may actually be kindred spirits. Will is clearly driven by a need to help others which partly explains how he interacts the most and maybe Riley needs the most help? I'd have thought that was Capheus but it's clearly just because his scenes of being helped really stand out because they are action packed. Like you say the "what's going on song" arguably stems entirely from the fact that Riley is listening to it - so it maybe says a lot about her latent power that the rest of the cluster actually feels the song too. Maybe in the way that Lito and Nomi having sex caused almost all the group to take part in the orgy? [/spoiler] On rewatches did people pick up any additional info on Sarah Patrell? [spoiler] it seemed to be a case that almost destroyed Will's dad and seemed to get Will put under psych evaluation. He's lucky it never alerted whispers way back then. The thing is if Sarah was a sensate how did Whispers know prior to her "birth". I'm thinking eye contact between sensates still triggers the connection and that the "birthing" is just a way to know who they are without seeing them. This still raises the question of why can't Whispers birth them himself? Why did he need Jonas and Darryl Hannah for that? It's why I still feel there's a lot more to Whispers other than him just being another sensate. [/spoiler] On Riley: [spoiler]You drew my attention to Daryl Hannah appearing to all the sensates "long" after they've been born. I don't remember the exact sequence of events leading to Will and Riley appearing to one another, but I do remember this--when Darryl Hannah initially appears to them after they've been born, they all look confused (she looks to be "asking" them something). Like I said, I thought they were just each reliving a terrible "dream." But now I have this theory that maybe she was trying to awaken them. Because even though they were "born," they were all still unaware of one another. I posit that Darryl Hannah was going to each of them trying to find that "special one" who would precipitate their awareness. When she finally went to Riley, the process was catalysed by Benjen Stark's drugs, something that had been absent when she visited all her other "children." Riley goes to Will and they "meet" for the first time at the place Darryl Hannah killed herself. In this case, Will's geographic location makes the meeting possible (causing my brother to believe that Darryl Hannah specifically chose that place to give birth). Will's connection to Sarah and prior "awareness" may also be a factor. The other sensates all become aware of one another after the Will-Riley meeting, with Benjen Stark's drugs no longer required. It may be important, it may not, but anyway, while listening to the orchestra back in Iceland, everyone also "visits" Riley once again and we get those birthing scenes. Riley faints after that. My point is that "big stuff" happens around or to Riley. Second minor detail, Wolfgang was a water birth and he likes that pool where the orgy happened.[/spoiler] On Whispers:[spoiler]Still in the dark here. But of course, that hasn't stopped me and my brother from coming up with all sorts of crazy ideas. The first is that every sensate has a specific role in a cluster. The same way Jonas had a cluster "father," there are probably others like "hunter." And maybe one sensate cannot be both. :dunno: This is a far-fetched, I admit it. [/spoiler] Kyoshi - in your data for your spreadsheet, do you have the actual number of discrete interactions? If you add up the interactions in your data, you get 272. But as there's at least two people involved in each, so there's a maximimum of 136 different ones. And then you get the times where there's 3 or more people interracting, so... possibly around 100 different interractions (or less?) While the ratios remain the same between the different members, it would be interesting to see just what percentage of discrete interactions the likes of Will and Riley are involved in. (At 100 total, Will must be present in 53% of them, which is quite a lot. At even 136 total, he'd be in 39% - and it has to be less than 136) I was lazy so I came up with a very basic design. Each time there's an interaction between two people, they each earn a point--one gets a point for sharing his/her environment while the other gets it for visiting. It's flawed, I admit. But it was the simplest way I thought to do it at the time. But it did reveal some interesting things. Some sensates share more than they visit, while others do the opposite. The total visit/host ratio is nearly one to one. Riley, Sun and Wolfgang are more balanced in their share/visit interactions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyoshi Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I also think it's time we all forgave the Wachowskis. :D...for Jupiter Ascending, for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 This doesn't really include spoilers unless details of how the sensates work or exist are an issue [spoiler] I was discussing the cluster roles at work too. We're all biologists so tend to have an evolutionary slant on things even for far out sci-fi. We also posited that if you were going to be connected to several people you'd ideally want a broad skill-set to enhance your group's survival. So there could have indeed been a type of natural selection where clusters with a wide skill set had a better chance of survival and pass on their genes (although genes become a bit weird when it's another person's). Still there's no way of knowing how/if clusters are genetic in nature - I'm guessing there has to be something to allow the brain to work - unless it is rewired by a birthing. Thinking about it more it would make sensates exist as almost pre-cultural in that they possibly didn't need a large society for a variety of skills (or at least a large society in a single geographic location). So a tribe of 10 people would actually be one of 80 if spread around the world. It's even larger if all 10 people were connected to another 10 people! I'm nattering about this because you could argue human culture/society arose as a way to make up for this deficit. Once humans were successfully existing in large groups you can see how they'd start to overwhelm the sensates. Being a super skilled group of 10 doesn't mean much when you are attacked by a group of 100+ humans. [/spoiler] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyoshi Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 On Kala - my personal view is that she's the weakest story because she has had the least interaction and help from the group. She's helped out a couple times, but no one has really helped her. Probably because she's not needed anything yet. I like her family and friends, and I love seeing her area - but she's just not gotten a lot of meat yet in the storyline. Man, I feel like I should rewatch it. Especially those early eps, where there was a lot going on that I likely missed. I get what you're saying. I think it may be intentional on the showrunners' parts, though.[spoiler] I think Kala may be the most non-believing of the bunch, ironically enough. Every cluster member has reacted very differently to what's happening to them. Nomi worries she may be going crazy. Sun prefers to think she's hallucinating. Capheus and Riley are just awed by the worlds they get to visit; Capheus probably because he's trying to escape the slum, and Riley probably because she's haunted. Lito doesn't even acknowledge it. Kala prefers to think it's all visions and dreams. And maybe this affects her influence on the others, and the opposite. :dunno: In a way, the others do help, but because her story is a purely internal one, it's harder to spot than say, Capheus's case. Riley, Sun, Capheus and Will show up at critical times in her story.[/spoiler] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyoshi Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 This doesn't really include spoilers unless details of how the sensates work or exist are an issue [spoiler] I was discussing the cluster roles at work too. We're all biologists so tend to have an evolutionary slant on things even for far out sci-fi. We also posited that if you were going to be connected to several people you'd ideally want a broad skill-set to enhance your group's survival. So there could have indeed been a type of natural selection where clusters with a wide skill set had a better chance of survival and pass on their genes (although genes become a bit weird when it's another person's). Still there's no way of knowing how/if clusters are genetic in nature - I'm guessing there has to be something to allow the brain to work - unless it is rewired by a birthing. Thinking about it more it would make sensates exist as almost pre-cultural in that they possibly didn't need a large society for a variety of skills (or at least a large society in a single geographic location). So a tribe of 10 people would actually be one of 80 if spread around the world. It's even larger if all 10 people were connected to another 10 people! I'm nattering about this because you could argue human culture/society arose as a way to make up for this deficit. Once humans were successfully existing in large groups you can see how they'd start to overwhelm the sensates. Being a super skilled group of 10 doesn't mean much when you are attacked by a group of 100+ humans. [/spoiler] I don't know what Yrsa knows, but she seemed to be worried that [spoiler]having children could result in them being sensates themselves. I don't know if she was worried because she is one and could pass on the gene, or if she was worried simply because the possibility existed, however remote. None of the sensate parents seem to be sensates themselves so far. But most of them have a single living parent. And we haven't even met Lito's parents. Most of them are an only child also...I think.[/spoiler] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I don't know what Yrsa knows, but she seemed to be worried that [spoiler]having children could result in them being sensates themselves. I don't know if she was worried because she is one and could pass on the gene, or if she was worried simply because the possibility existed, however remote. None of the sensate parents seem to be sensates themselves so far. But most of them have a single living parent. And we haven't even met Lito's parents. Most of them are an only child also...I think.[/spoiler] [spoiler] It would be interesting if the dead parents were possible sensates - although it could be a recessive mutation where neither parent has the ability while their children could. I'd think a remaining parent would recognise the odd behaviour if their partner had been a sensate. I could imagine Kala's dad being one though :) [/spoiler] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I don't think every potential sensate gets birthed. Daryl Hannah and Jonas were purposely birthing clusters, I assume in much the same way they birthed Riley's cluster (and also assume Riley is the one who is able to birth new clusters). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alguien Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Finished the season last night. Holy hell, but that was a fun ride. :) There were moments in the last three episodes that actually had me cheering. I'm very, very curious to see where they go from here, and how they handle the, err, Whispers situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I don't think every potential sensate gets birthed. Daryl Hannah and Jonas were purposely birthing clusters, I assume in much the same way they birthed Riley's cluster (and also assume Riley is the one who is able to birth new clusters). Wouldn't Will also be able to birth them too if we are making the Hannah/Jonas comparison? Finished the season last night. Holy hell, but that was a fun ride. :) There were moments in the last three episodes that actually had me cheering. I'm very, very curious to see where they go from here, and how they handle the, err, Whispers situation. With Whispers I'm guessing [spoiler] Kala has access to a drug that makes Will invisible to Whispers without rendering him unconscious all the time. Otherwise we won't see much of Will next season. I think Whispers is going about it ass backwards though as he still knows Who Riley is so he can track her down or even easier track down Nomi (who's hiding in her flat) and get access to everyone via them. Although I'm not sure that Whispers knows Nomi is part of that cluster or even capable of sensate abilities - he only knows her brain could allow her to do so. [/spoiler] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Wouldn't Will also be able to birth them too if we are making the Hannah/Jonas comparison? It seemed like Hannah was the one who was doing the birthing but that the mass cluster births was something they both decided to do together. I don't know that there is any evidence that Jonas can birth clusters on his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 It seemed like Hannah was the one who was doing the birthing but that the mass cluster births was something they both decided to do together. I don't know that there is any evidence that Jonas can birth clusters on his own. It's clear there's still a lot to be clarified regarding how sensates work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon AS Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 So they just wanted to wait until 8.8. to announce the renewal? https://twitter.com/netflix/status/630030865054109698 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkash Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 So they just wanted to wait until 8.8. to announce the renewal? https://twitter.com/netflix/status/630030865054109698 Hehe ! Didnt even notice that ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 So they just wanted to wait until 8.8. to announce the renewal? https://twitter.com/netflix/status/630030865054109698 Considering I'd been checking on a daily basis about renewals it seems I gave up a few days too early. Great news - can't wait for the next installment. I guess it will be 12-18 months from now depending on when they can start shooting. EDIT: looking into the shows development it states that all the main cast were contracted for 5 seasons so the whole "trying to work out contracts delay could only be with regard to the non-sensates I imagine. I never picked up their birthday was 8.8 (1988?) - in hindsight we should have expected the announcement then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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