Football LXV - refs' decisions and beyond!

[baxus]

let's continue the discussion.

EDIT:

in the previous thread, Raja stated:

In my mind the games over, and yes it ruined the game but we could have still been in the tie had we kept it at 1-0. The tackle does look dangerous ( but I don't think that's why he was sent off), it's very similar to the one that Skrtel did on Cazorla in the FA cup game, and that wasn't even a foul.

the whole point is that it didn't really ruin the game, did it?

even if we say that giving both the penalty and a red card is a mistake on the ref's part, penalty still wasn't converted, so for all intents and purposes, it is as if the penalty wasn't even awarded (at least scorewise).

as for the f.a. cup game, i haven't seen the game in question so i can't comment on that particular foul, but i've seen quite a few fouls in brittish competitions that would warrant much sterner sanctions had they been made in, for example, italy or spain.

[Alex.]

Arm the players, I say

[baxus]

Arm the players, I say

i'd rather give them armour :D

[Slick Mongoose]

i'd rather give them armour :D

Fortunately they haven't needed it in the Ukraine (yet).

And Soldado is cursed or something.

[Raja]

And Soldado is cursed or something.

I have no idea why I'm watching this game, but it's been really good so far. At least he's had a couple of very nice touches outside the box.

Baxus, it's the red card which I have issue with, not the penalty( though I feel like we've talked this decision to death now). I just feel like the game, and especially the second half would have been much better if the red card was not given. I can see why it was given, and I'm sure other refs have given cards for that. As I said before, we should have kept it a 1-0, and ultimately it's the failure of the team to not keep that goal out.

[Darryk]

Spurs really are embarrassing to support sometimes.

And by sometimes I mean often.

[Alcibiades]

MLS have bought Chivas USA. I wonder how much it cost. Probably just enough to eat at Chipotle.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2014/02/20/major-league-soccer-purchases-chivas-usa?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=News&utm_campaign=Unpaid

It's not that shocking. Something had to happen with Chivas I think. It's interesting that they say that the team will remain in LA and that they'll seek new ownership to build a new stadium. I'm not sure what's wrong with having them share the Home Depot Center, but what do I know about LA. It's good that the team will get past the failure of the "Chivas in America" marketing idea that so thoroughly didn't pan out.

[Mark Antony]

Spurs really are embarrassing to support sometimes.

And by sometimes I mean often.

I was looking at their schedule and if Spurs are still in the top 4 hunt after March then I think they have a great shot at getting it tbh. :(

[MercenaryChef]

Los Angeles does not warrant a second soccer specific stadium.

I think the train about keeping chivas in la is just blowing smoke. If a owner comes along who wants the franchise and wants to move it mls would jump at the opportunity.

The league is expanding too rapidly again I fear. The pay structure needs to be opened up even further to attract more quality players from abroad.

[Gears of the Beast]

the whole point is that it didn't really ruin the game, did it?

even if we say that giving both the penalty and a red card is a mistake on the ref's part, penalty still wasn't converted, so for all intents and purposes, it is as if the penalty wasn't even awarded (at least scorewise).

What are you talking about? How did it not ruin the game? They were holding their own before the card but no-one can play 10 men against fucking Bayern. It completely killed the game. While I don't have a problem with the penalty the fact that it was missed doesn't change the fact that it was awarded. If a ref is asked why they gave a shit penalty they don't say "well if the guy had missed it, it would be like I never even awarded it", that's completely bullshit reasoning.

[King of the Road]

Still smarting from the Andy Carroll red card. Retrospective action has to be taken against those players who deem it appropriate to dive. All it does is ruin games and suck the soul out of the English game, just the same as red cards. I hope to see some improvement over the summer months, we have goal line technology, why not take action against diving?

[Gears of the Beast]

Still smarting from the Andy Carroll red card. Retrospective action has to be taken against those players who deem it appropriate to dive. All it does is ruin games and suck the soul out of the English game, just the same as red cards. I hope to see some improvement over the summer months, we have goal line technology, why not take action against diving?

Yeah I don't understand why if the ref isn't 100% about a call like that they can't just ask another ref who's in some room watching a replay like a million other sports have implemented. It's hard to make a split second decision like that, so why not implement something like that?

[Mexal]

the whole point is that it didn't really ruin the game, did it?

even if we say that giving both the penalty and a red card is a mistake on the ref's part, penalty still wasn't converted, so for all intents and purposes, it is as if the penalty wasn't even awarded (at least scorewise).

This is idiotic. I didn't see it before, but having seen Gears response, I just need to echo it. Just watch the 2nd half if you have any doubt that the game was ruined. Teams can barely hang with Bayern with 11 players. You think any team in the world can hang with them with 10 players? Come on now.

[Nas!]

SB, you'd make a terrible Hammers fan.

Free Hodor!

[Alex.]

SB, you'd make a terrible Hammers fan.

I'm sure he's gutted ;)

[baxus]

What are you talking about? How did it not ruin the game? They were holding their own before the card but no-one can play 10 men against fucking Bayern. It completely killed the game. While I don't have a problem with the penalty the fact that it was missed doesn't change the fact that it was awarded. If a ref is asked why they gave a shit penalty they don't say "well if the guy had missed it, it would be like I never even awarded it", that's completely bullshit reasoning.

This is idiotic. I didn't see it before, but having seen Gears response, I just need to echo it. Just watch the 2nd half if you have any doubt that the game was ruined. Teams can barely hang with Bayern with 11 players. You think any team in the world can hang with them with 10 players? Come on now.

sending a player off does not ruin the game.

it may ruin one team's chances of winning or getting a good result, but that's a whole other story.

as far as "try playing 10 men against bayern" goes, it's a shitty argument.

arsenal started with 11 players and their player was sent off for a very good reason.

that red card is an extreemely poor excuse for losing that game.

bayern are the reigning european champions who have improved their squad even further since last season - off course it was going to be a tough game for arsenal.

that's part and parcel of playing in the god damn CHAMPIONS' LEAGUE.

if that's not to arsenal's liking they can bugger off and play in the conference league.

[Rorshach]

SB, you'd make a terrible Hammers fan.

This, for me, reads as a compliment

[King of the Road]

The Carroll decision wasn't wrong though. He deliberately swung his arm at a player.

He'd been fouled, sure, but players can't react. You don't have to decapitate someone to earn a red card. The fact that he couldn't see Flores and missed is neither here nor there.

(Which is not to say I condone exaggeration. Ideally, something needs to be done about that retrospectively.)

In retrospect the intent was there, though I still think a straight red was harsh, particularly in light of the Yaya Toure affair. But yeah the main point coming out of this for West Ham and indeed football fans is that we have to crack down on diving. It's ridiculous that it still happens in the English game. As Big Sam said, no one wants to see centre halves squeal.

[mormont]

What are you talking about? How did it not ruin the game? They were holding their own before the card but no-one can play 10 men against fucking Bayern. It completely killed the game. While I don't have a problem with the penalty the fact that it was missed doesn't change the fact that it was awarded. If a ref is asked why they gave a shit penalty they don't say "well if the guy had missed it, it would be like I never even awarded it", that's completely bullshit reasoning.

No. But as I've said before, 'penalties' are slightly misnamed: the penalty itself only restores the status quo ante, ie reinstates the goalscoring opportunity. It isn't actually a punishment for the foul.

So I agree, whether the pen was missed or scored is irrelevant to the issue of whether there should've been a card issued. As to that, denial of a clear goalscoring opportunity is a red under the rules, and rightly so. Restoring the opportunity does nothing to discourage cynical fouling, as others pointed out, or to penalise players who do it. The goalie's union may not like it, but them's the rules, and they're there for a reason.

Still smarting from the Andy Carroll red card. Retrospective action has to be taken against those players who deem it appropriate to dive.

What does the second sentence have to do with the first?

Feigning injury after being fouled is not the same thing as 'diving', ie pretending that a foul occurred when it didn't. It's the same sort of thing, perhaps, and it's bad, for sure, but the critical difference is: in the first case, a foul occurred. The victim feigning injury afterwards is not a reason to let the offender off with the foul.

What Carroll did was a red card, no matter what Flores did. End of story. You can argue that Flores ought to have been sanctioned for unsporting behaviour also, but Carroll had no case for appeal or complaint, as was demonstrated by the fact that his appeal was thrown out.

[Alex.]

That tournament in America has the schedule up here if any of our American friends are interested. East Coast stuff in DC & NY:

Inter Milan vs Man United @ the Fedex Field in DC on 29th July.

Liverpool vs Man City @ Yankee Stadium on 30th July

Couple of sweet games there. Others are spread all over America but I'm not sure where anyone else is apart from up and down the North East coast. Some games yet to be confirmed.