Stannis Eats No Peaches Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 1) You people know that the both the US invasion of Iraq and the Russian invasion of Crimea can both be wrong at the same time, right? Hell, every US intervention of the past decade ca be wrong and it still doesn't change aynthing baout Russia's invasion of Crimea. That they still claim isn't happening.Of course they're both wrong. People are just pointing out the ridiculous hypocrisy and that this invasion has happened a lot more peacefully than any of the West's antics in recent years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I agree, the world did not end when Hitler got Sudentenland either.i suppose the comparison would be sound if the russian empire were responsible for crimean agitation that it now seeks to cure, if the annexation of crimea were preceded by a string of similar outrages, and if it were to be followed by a demand for a land corridor to konigsberg?horza--though that anecdote delegitimizes russian propaganda on "fascism" in the same way that US propaganda has been trashed in this context, i'm not seeing how that mitigates svoboda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Of course they're both wrong. People are just pointing out the ridiculous hypocrisy and that this invasion has happened a lot more peacefully than any of the West's antics in recent years. Why though? It has absolutely nothing to do with the current situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 This has been a great few weeks for fascism awareness. For added irony "peace to the world" was a classic soviet slogan Russian action in Crimea could well have an impact on politics in Estonia and Latvia as well as Moldova, so jumpy, nervous times ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Eats No Peaches Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Why though? It has absolutely nothing to do with the current situation.It's not related to Ukraine, other than how the West is acting high and mighty, condemning Russia's actions, while their own recent actions have been far worse. Russia should tell them to shove it.I do have enormous sympathy for the people suffering in this situation, really I do, I just think that western leaders should shut up and stop embarrassing themselves, there's nothing they can do to help Ukraine other than by sending aid as far as I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 SenP,Why has Ukraine not attempted to force the Russian troops to move back to their bases in Crimea? If Europe were to stop buying Natural Gas and Oil from Russia could Russia ignore that and continue invading their neighbors and demanding chunks of territory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 It's not related to Ukraine, other than how the West is acting high and mighty, condemning Russia's actions, while their own recent actions have been far worse. Russia should tell them to shove it.I do have enormous sympathy for the people suffering in this situation, really I do, I just think that western leaders should shut up and stop embarrassing themselves, there's nothing they can do to help Ukraine other than by sending aid as far as I can see. So "you did something bad in the past so you can't try and stop something bad happening now" Is essentially what you're saying. And that's horseshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Eats No Peaches Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 SenP,Why has Ukraine not attempted to force the Russian troops to move back to their bases in Crimea?:dunno: They don't want a fight I guess, a fight they would lose. Nobody wants a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 i suppose the comparison would be sound if the russian empire were responsible for crimean agitation that it now seeks to cure, if the annexation of crimea were preceded by a string of similar outrages, and if it were to be followed by a demand for a land corridor to konigsberg?... The problem is that nobody knows anymore what the limits are once respect for the territorial integrity of another country is abandoned. Nothing is off the table so should it be unreasonable for Belarus and Lithuania to fear that such a demand may be forthcoming? Since on Tuesday Putin was saying that Crimea wouldn't be integrated into the Russian Federation, but on Thursday that seems to be on the cards can we even assume there is a controlling intelligence over Russian policy making that could be trusted to be capable of ruling any such action in or out! The bugger's gone and landed us into a politics of uncertainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Eats No Peaches Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 So "you did something bad in the past so you can't try and stop something bad happening now" Is essentially what you're saying. And that's horseshit.No, that's not what I'm saying. I just don't see why Russia would listen to them, considering they're just as guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 horza--though that anecdote delegitimizes russian propaganda on "fascism" in the same way that US propaganda has been trashed in this context, i'm not seeing how that mitigates svoboda. What anecdote could? They've talked up a second Great Patriotic War but I'm struggling to see how Russia's actions since last Friday have done anything to hurt Pravy Sector and Svoboda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CityApache Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 If Europe were to stop buying Natural Gas and Oil from Russia could Russia ignore that and continue invading their neighbors and demanding chunks of territory? I'm afraid it's not that simple. Europe simply can't afford not buying oil and (especially) gas from Russia. EU as a whole is 35 percent dependent on Russian oil and almost 70 percent dependent on Russian gas. Dependence of some EU members is much greater (Poland buys ca 90 percent of its oil from Russia, some other countries buy there nearly 100 percent of their gas). And it's not easy (for logistic and economic reasons) to switch to other sources (system of oil and gas pipelines, not enough LNG terminals across Europe, possible shortage of gas available on international markets, not to mention its price). Shortly, such a move would almost equally hit both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 3CA,Interesting. What would Russia do if Eastern European Nations started taking action to cut themselves free of the Russian fossil fuel tit by either buying from another source or converting to some other form of energy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CityApache Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3CityApache Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Well, it is actually happenning, but it is a process for decades, not years. And Russia's quite obvious answer is strenghtening eastern routes for its hydrocarbons (mainly doubling a capacity of ESPO pipeline, feeding China, Japan and South Korea - where, as we know, the demand will be steadily rising in the next few decades). Secondly, it can be done only to a certain extent. Russia still has a solid economic advantage over every other possible source of hydrocarbons in Central and Eastern Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broken one Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 No matter how pathetic it sounds - cheap LNG form USA may save so called free world. Provided that USA are going to sell it, off course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 What would Russia do if Eastern European Nations started taking action to cut themselves free of the Russian fossil fuel tit by either buying from another source or converting to some other form of energy? buying from what other source? it's not as if there's any country or company in the world that has huge amounts of oil and gas they can't sell just lying around waiting for a buyer. and even if everyone all of the sudden wanted to switch their source, how long do you think it would take for those sources to raise the prices? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 The reason that the "this opens up the annexation possibility all over the world" argument is a huge exaggeration, is because this is not a realistic threat in the vast majority of the world.Other than a few small non-Nato countries bordering Russia, and a few small places next to China, there ain't that much of the world left for a big power to realistically covet.The world is a small place, and the number of disputed territories limited.Russia is not going for Poland next and China is not looking for an excuse to go annex New Zealand.This issue can really be let go without upsetting the international applecart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 You say Other than a few small non-Nato countries bordering Russia, and a few small places next to China, there ain't that much of the world left for a big power to realistically covet. and yet until very recently Ukraine was not considered available for coveting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 You say and yet until very recently Ukraine was not considered available for coveting.Nato limits the possible targets in an absolute way. Russia will not attack a Nato member. Ukraine is one of the last buffer countries left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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